Saw our the typical post about OT violence. Few comments:

1) The Bible definitely has it. It would be at least an R rated movie today with all the sex, violence that happens in it.

2) Regarding God commanding violence. Got to read the entire story (see how the story ends with Jesus). Read bible through Jesus not just 30 second sound bite. Understanding there are absolute Consequences of Sin. God shows us moral truths through the history of the Jews. Over and over we make choices that will lead to blessing or a curse.

This is easy to see if you look at history- lots of innocent Germans and Japanese were killed due to the sins of society. We see it today sins of fathers affect their children.

3) Great short video of Fr. Barron on subject. Dont read bible in 30 second sound bites- through Jesus.
Also - Symbolically Removing all evil from your life. Example- like an alcoholic saying he only drinks every once in a while. This can''t happen- no to remove all of it from your life. Fr. Barron - Violence in Bible

I find it interesting, no one disputes Jesus. Therefore, first read Jesus and understand. Then read the OT. Look for the overall message. Wait to see how the events play out much later.

Look for Messages: Repent, turn to the lord. Our choices will lead to a blessing or curse. Follow God or there are severe consequences in this life and next (Heaven and Hell).

In the old testament we see this play out by the Jews. For 2000 years we get to see the long term results (The good, bad and ugly). The bible is Awesome in so many ways. One way is Human nature does not change (strive for power, money, sex, domination). We get to see history repeat itself over and over and over.

Hey booboo, how's it going?

Imo, I think the people who get into trouble with the OT violence and New Testament "God Hates ***s" conclusions are the people who are using a literalist interpretation of the Bible. If you change your conception of God and introduce the idea that the text is God inspired and written by fallible humans the "problem" of violence goes away. I also think that you have to do this in order for the bigger picture to emerge in terms of what the OT is trying to teach. The NT, the gospels anyway, pretty much stand on their own.

americathegreat1492 said:

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Hey booboo, how's it going?

Imo, I think the people who get into trouble with the OT violence and New Testament "God Hates ***s" conclusions are the people who are using a literalist interpretation of the Bible. If you change your conception of God and introduce the idea that the text is God inspired and written by fallible humans the "problem" of violence goes away. I also think that you have to do this in order for the bigger picture to emerge in terms of what the OT is trying to teach. The NT, the gospels anyway, pretty much stand on their own.

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Life is good and busy- daughter just graduated High School

Agree with what you said.

1) Folks need to ask- why was this particular book in the bible written, what is the purpose, writing style and intended audience of the author.

2) Good to read the bible first as literal interpretation of scripture verse and then look for the context, underlying message and symbolism. We need to see the outcome in OT and then NT- Jesus. Also have church authority to guide us. Also find interesting the biblical themes are repeated over, over and over. So it is pretty easy to understand and not miss, because it is repeated so often.

3) I do think 3000 years ago Jews fought many battles and killed many folks (including women and children) as we continue to do today. Back then battle was with Baal (child sacrifice, temple prostitiution) and the Jewish people own sins. I see similarities as we battle radicals from ISIS, who today murdering children (hundreds). We have our own issues (sin) to deal with one of many examples is Abortion as we murder our own children (millions). Consequences of Sin pertains to us today, just as it did back in the OT and NT.




We live in a complex world, not always easy to live and love and determine the best path forward. That is why we need to pray for guidance. Go to church weekly, read bible, and pray everyday. Repent and turn to the lord

Another comment. God gives live life and takes life away. He is the author of life. He has the authority.

1) I don't think Death is a big deal to God. Everyone dies. Death comes to all of us. Death is part of the process (afterlife).

2) All of us are born into various circumstances (life is not equal/fair): rich/poor, healthy/sick, smart/dumb, skinny/fat, in peacetime/war, shortlife/ long life. We don't control the circumstances we are born into, but we do have control on how we live and love in this life.

Imo the concept of the logos is very useful in understanding the relationship between God and evil.

booboo91 said:

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Another comment. God gives live life and takes life away. He is the author of life. He has the authority.

1) I don't think Death is a big deal to God. Everyone dies. Death comes to all of us. Death is part of the process (afterlife).

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I'm uncomfortable with this statement. Death is the consequence of sin. Christ died to defeat death. It's a pretty big deal. The fact that it is "part of the process" doesn't make it less of a big deal.

Idk if I can articulate this adequately but I'll try.

Sometimes I run across thing in the text that just make sense. No effort required there.

Sometimes I read things that make me delve deeper.

Finally, I read things that make no sense at all to me. An example here is the resurrection. In these kinds if cases, I am content to let stand the possibilities. I don't personally have experience, but I have enough experience with similar things that I refuse to reject them outright.

"Jesus" is often an all too convenient excuse to ignore the uncomfortable realities of violence and the outright bizarre in our own faith. Jesus, the Jewish man deeply rooted in the narrative and culture of his people, is a ridiculous excuse to ignore the Jewish realities of our faith. Denying the Jewish reality of Jesus which includes all the embarrassing stuff about violence, conquest, and hoped for retribution against enemies and replacing it with a bland, modern, pacified Jewish Jesus, is to deny the humanity of his incarnation. We don't get to call him Jewish and ignore the tensions of violence and peace in the Jewish theological tradition

Q1: When somebody does something wrong it it okay for them to be judged and face justice?
Q2: If it's okay for us to judge someone who does something wrong why is it wrong for God to judge someone for doing something wrong?

If one looks at the OT through Atheistic eyes, then death is the worse possible scenario and ultimate finality. If an innocent person dies then that's it, no justice When looking at death through a biblical eyes, it is simply God moving a person from one place to another. If an innocent person dies, God has every opportunity to make up for it.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. Rom. 8

swimmerbabe11 said:

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booboo91 said:

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Another comment. God gives live life and takes life away. He is the author of life. He has the authority.

1) I don't think Death is a big deal to God. Everyone dies. Death comes to all of us. Death is part of the process (afterlife).

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I'm uncomfortable with this statement. Death is the consequence of sin. Christ died to defeat death. It's a pretty big deal. The fact that it is "part of the process" doesn't make it less of a big deal.

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Sorry for the delay, been busy.

Agreed with your comments. My point is everyone dies. But there is life after death (there is yet more to come- Heaven/Hell- this is the process that I speak of).

So whether you live to be 100 or 2 years old, the end result is the same we will die. In the grand scheme things as we look back through centuries do we really care how long folks lived- they are all dead now. It is not how long you lived but rather how you lived your life.

As I see it nonbelievers are at huge disadvantage when they fail to recognize life after death.

Russian Drink Toast that I like- " Here is to a Good Death"- this means not being afraid, living life and loving others, like the many example of the martyred saints, they know with Jesus death sting is gone.

DirtDiver said:

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Q1: When somebody does something wrong it it okay for them to be judged and face justice?
Q2: If it's okay for us to judge someone who does something wrong why is it wrong for God to judge someone for doing something wrong?

If one looks at the OT through Atheistic eyes, then death is the worse possible scenario and ultimate finality. If an innocent person dies then that's it, no justice When looking at death through a biblical eyes, it is simply God moving a person from one place to another. If an innocent person dies, God has every opportunity to make up for it.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. Rom. 8

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Dirt you nailed it good comments. That was the point I was trying to make.

Then what's the purpose of life? If it doesn't matter that a supposedly loving God had you tortured and murdered as an infant because you belonged to the wrong tribe, what was the point of being born? So that you could get murdered?

Dr. Watson said:

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Then what's the purpose of life? If it doesn't matter that a supposedly loving God had you tortured and murdered as an infant because you belonged to the wrong tribe, what was the point of being born? So that you could get murdered?

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Dr. Watson

You seem to have bundled many thoughts/questions together- purpose of life, and why do bad things happen to good people.

1) Suggest you read the good old Baltimore Catechism Baltimore Catechism Q- Why did God make us (Purpose of life)?

Answer- from Catechism-God made us to show forth His goodness and to share with us His everlasting happiness in heaven. My own spin- Purpose in life is to make it to heaven and take as many people with you as possible. You do this by Love. Loving God and Neighbor. Giving yourself away.

2). Bad things to good people- In many cases- we do not know the answer- God only knows. But also you seem to be missing basic trut that there are consquences of sin (our actions or lack of them). This is pretty easy to see we have many countless exxamples: Johnny Manziel or the prodigal son parable of Jesus (stupid sinful choices affect everyone around those involved). In history we see WW2 (lots of innocent folks affected by war, sins of many people, nation, of failed leadership), see fathers abandoning their children (who are innocent, failed male leadership).

But in the end God will set thing right- justice is served, the weeds will be separated from the wheat.

Jesus words- I came so that they might have life and have it more abundantly-John- 10:10"

k2aggie07 said:

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Death is not part of the process or the plan. Death is the enemy. Death is the opposite of God, being vs nonbeing, reality vs nothingness.

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That's just silly and strikes me as insincere. Death may not be part of your plan, but who are you? Did you make the world? Anyone observing the world sees that death is clearly part of the way things work. Death is not non-being, but a transition to something greater.

But it wasn't always this way. Death entered the world as a result or consequence of sin. Death is called "the final enemy" in the scriptures. Our God is not a God of death. He is a God of order not chaos (1 Cor 14:33).
God is Life and Light. Death is foreign to him.

The Wisdom of Solomon which many fathers quote as scripture says plainly "God did not create death".

Thinking otherwise puts you at odds with millennia of consistent church teaching.

Look at what it says about the grave or Sheol in Isaiah: "For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness."

Being dead is not being with God.

You cannot understand violence in the Bible unless you understand that the Old Testament was a physical contest between flesh and blood. Contrasting to the New Testament when we are commanded to not wrestle against flesh and blood. A spiritual competition.

Death is far older than men. How could we have caused it?

I think there is a difference between the death of things which have an eternal teleological purpose and things which don't.

The scriptures say that Man was created in the image and likeness of God. There are practically as many interpretations of that as there are people, but I think part of that image and likeness is to be deathless and immortal.

So, when I'm talking about death as a metaphysical reality I'm not talking about the cessation of the various chemical and physical processes that continue life in a plant or animal or bacterium.

I don't think Man's purpose includes death as an end to our being, and I think the Fall (temporarily) altered this.

OP - there is a really good book specifically on these hard sayings and seemingly irreconcilable violent verses of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.


Hard Sayings by Trent Horn - goes really in depth on this.

Tamu_mgm said:

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OP - there is a really good book specifically on these hard sayings and seemingly irreconcilable violent verses of the Bible, especially in the Old Testament.

Hard Sayings by Trent Horn - goes really in depth on this.

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Tamu- yep big fan of catholic answers- haven't read Trent horn's book yet- heard the many comments on radio- podcast