This has come up several times on various threads, and I figured I would start another. I'm also specifically not using the work Torah, because that seems to mean different things to different people. "Written Mosaic Law" is a very defined set of parameters.

To start off, I'll answer my own question by saying "sort of". It is clear that the written Law was meant for a bronze age/iron age land-owing, agricultural society. Many of the commandments just are flat out of place in modern society. I'll reference two:

Lev 27:30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.
Exodus 22:5 "If anyone grazes their livestock in a field or vineyard and lets them stray and they graze in someone else's field, the offender must make restitution from the best of their own field or vineyard.

I can honestly say that I have never broken either of these laws, but also that neither has ever directly applied to me once in my entire life. I have never even had a garden or fruit bearing tree, and I have never owned a grazing animal. I even grew up in a rural area. I would imagine that a great many Americans, if not a majority, will never be impacted by these commandments. Does that make them not applicable? Not at all, but it does make them sort of useless for most of us. I find it hard to believe that an omniscient God would have given these specific statutes, two of many, specifically regarding agriculture knowing that in a few thousand years they would not be needed. But more on that later.

The other point I'd like to make involves sacrifices. We know that the patriarches including Abraham and Jacob offered sacrifices at many different places while they were travelling. But later God gives this commandment:

Lev 17:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'This is what the Lord has commanded: 3 Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox, a lamb or a goat in the camp or outside of it 4 instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the Lord in front of the tabernacle of the Lordthat person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people.

We even have priests that are killed by God for offering sacrifices outside of the tabernacle. So we can't just say the Patriarchs were priests and get around it that way. At the very least, God's law regarding sacrifice changed when this commandment was given.

But maybe it was eternal since then? Maybe this change was permanent and everlasting? Well, the tabernacle traveled until it was permanently placed in the Temple. So another change occured in which it was no longer permissable for the tabernacle to be mobile, and the Temple became the only acceptable location for sacrifice. Since then, the Temple was destroyed on several occasions, including the last nearly 2000 years. You could even argue that the great intensity and variety of natural disasters that occured anytime someone tried to Temple shows that God does not want it rebuilt, or at least not yet.

So we are left with a great number of written laws that have no purpose for anyone. They are literally impossible for us to fulfill at this time, and therefore no one sacrifices. This is the consensus by everyone trying to follow mosaic law. Small problem though:

Deut 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

God tells us in that same written law that He will not give us commandments we can't keep. He says His Word is near us, and that we all have the ability to obey it. If the Mosaic written law is eternal, then certainly this commandment is as well. Yet we know and agree that there are written Mosaic laws that cannot be followed, and haven't been able to be followed for almost 2000 years. The sacrificial system was only in place for about 1000 years! So we have been unable to follow these commandments for twice as long as we were able to follow them! How does that square with the verse above?

So to explain the "sort of" comment.

To me it is clear that various specific written laws have no or almost no applicability to modern life. That doesn't mean they are useless. Taking the example of the tithe, I have never grown a crop on purpose, owned a fruit-bearing tree, or owned a grazing animal. However, I have earned money from jobs and investments. The "fruit" of my labor is money, not grain, fruit or meat. So if we take the tithe as a principle and not a specific, then it makes sense that 10% of that belongs to God. Just realize that the Mosaic law specifically says nothing about money or cash, but I think the principle still applies.

The tithe went to widows, orphans, and levites under written mosaic law. These people were all landless and could not provide for themselves in their society. In a modern sense, you could tithe to people entirely dedicated to God, or people whose circumstances prevent them from providing for themselves. The disabled and full time clergy come to mind.

Sacrifices were varied and had many different purposes. Even if we cannot sacrifice, we can still fulfill those purposes. For instance, a peace offering was eaten in fellowship by a priest and two parties that wished to express goodwill toward each other. This happens in church nearly every weekend when people take a pastor out to lunch as a group and fellowship together.

So I don't think the letter of the law was meant to be eternal, but the Spiritual principles behind the written law are as valid today as they were then. And they will always be valid, because we still relate to each other and to God in the same way.

Your first point refers to judicial laws which expired when Israel expired as a state. However, those laws have a "general equity" that may be applied today. (e.g. 1 Cor. 9:8-10) The same may be said regarding Levitical laws since a new priesthood has now been instituted (Heb. 8-10).

Your second regarding the temple simple shows that revelation is progressive and historical. The institution of the temple was something that occurred in time & space and served a purpose.

What remains and is eternal are the moral laws summarized in the ten commandments. These existed in the heart of Adam before they were written down and in the heart of the most remote person who has never heard the gospel.

I've often heard the division of the law into "moral, judicial, and ceremonial". The problem is that the Bible doesn't read that way at all. All the laws were given together without distinction. Leviticus is primarily a book of "ceremonial" law, but it also contains 19:18 which is the second most important "moral" law in the whole book.

It's also well and good to say that Jesus death and resurrection made the law not applicable, but that contradicts the law itself and the words of Jesus. So how do we make sense of a law that claims to be eternal and able to be followed when it is clearly anachronistic and not able to be followed?

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Lev 27:30 "'A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the Lord; it is holy to the Lord.

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Principle of the matter. Our commodity is money - so tithe that.

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Exodus 22:5 "If anyone grazes their livestock in a field or vineyard and lets them stray and they graze in someone else's field, the offender must make restitution from the best of their own field or vineyard.

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Don't use your neighbors stuff without asking?

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Lev 17:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 "Speak to Aaron and his sons and to all the Israelites and say to them: 'This is what the Lord has commanded: 3 Any Israelite who sacrifices an ox, a lamb or a goat in the camp or outside of it 4instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the Lord in front of the tabernacle of the Lordthat person shall be considered guilty of bloodshed; they have shed blood and must be cut off from their people.

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Only a few places are acceptable for sacrifices.

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Deut 30:11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, "Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, "Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?" 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.

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These are doable?

The three fold division of the law is a theological study, you won't find it in the Bible expressed in those terms. And some precepts find themselves not so cut and dry. Was musical instrument use in worship exclusive to the Levitical priesthood?

The death and resurrection of Jesus did not make the law not applicable to the Christian. Those who love him will naturally love his commandments as a servant loves his king's rule. It is not binding to the Christian in the same way it was to Adam (life and death depended on his perfect obedience), but is his rule of life.

The Spiritualization of Torah...Mosaic Law. Are there spiritual applications to the commandments? Absolutely. Should the physical be dropped in deference to the spiritual? Absolutely not.

You say that many of the commandments are flat out of place in modern society and bring up the tithing of agriculture. I ask you, was every Israelite a farmer as they went into the Promise Land? The answer is no. Does that make them useless to the society back then? Again no. It is no different today.

Regarding sacrifices, the Patriarchs did offer sacrifices in various places. At that time, the Patriarchs were not a nation. They were a people, individuals. The nation was not born until the Pesach in Egypt. At that time there was a birth of the nation. God reached out to Moses and the Israelites like He had never done before. They would know Him in a different manner than the Patriarchs did. It is when the nation is born that God fully displays His entire instructions (Torah) to a nation for all to hear. It is obvious there was knowledge of God's Torah well before Sinai, at the very least certain aspects of it. We know there is a Sabbath during creation. We know that there was a way to bring a sacrifice to God from Cain and Abel. We know from them that murdering was wrong as well. We know the difference between clean and unclean animals during from Noah's days. We know from Abraham that kindness to others is king. We also know that Abraham followed God's commandments, decrees, and ordinances. We learn from Isaac, Jacob, and the twelve sons many other principles laid out in Torah.

At the very least, many aspects of Torah existed prior to Torah being given. We know the Word was with God since the beginning. It was through the Word that God created creation. We know the Word became flesh. I know there are those who disagree that Torah is the Word, but there is ample evidence to support it. In the very beginning, when God separated the light from darkness (light being another word for Torah) that the Gemetria of the light is 613. A coincidence? I don't believe in coincidences...

Did God give us ways to deal with sacrifices during the time we don't have a Temple? Yes. Hosea 14. God says to pray to Him to those who were scattered....they didn't have a Temple to go to. Our prayers our likened to a sacrifice today. There are several Psalms which speak to this as well. Psalm 141 for example. This is why many Jews pray 3 times a day. They pray during the times morning, afternoon, and evening sacrifices would have been conducted.

Why aren't sacrifices being conducted today? B/c Yeshua is the Melchizedek priest serving in the Temple in Heaven. This priesthood is not new and does not replace the Levitical Priesthood, for God said that the Levitical Priesthood is eternal. He, Yeshua, takes our prayers and lifts them up to God as a sweet aroma to Him. Why? B/c real prayer shows that God is the source of everything.

Did Yeshua live out the Torah in a physical manner? Absolutely. Did He say anything about not living out the Torah in a physical manner? Absolutely not. The spiritualization of Torah is a way for man not to follow God's will. It is just another way to say the Torah is not for today. Are there commandments we cannot follow today b/c we are not in the land or b/c there is no Temple? Yes, this is no different than in Daniel's day.

For people who believe the Levitical Priesthood, the sacrifices, etc are all done should really read Ezekiel 40-48, specifically, 44-48. No where in the Bible does it state that these serve a purpose only during a specific time period.

chuckd stated:

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What remains and is eternal are the moral laws summarized in the ten commandments. These existed in the heart of Adam before they were written down and in the heart of the most remote person who has never heard the gospel.

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If these moral laws are only what is eternal (despite God saying otherwise), then what sets God's people apart today without the rest of Torah. Based on this information, all people should be the same in regards to their morals. Yes, people make choices and do not all follow these, but that is not what I am asking. If someone literally follows all the moral laws, but does not enter into covenant with God, what is separating God's people from this person. Peter quotes the Torah about being holy, so how are God's people set apart today if all have this moralness in their innards.

Also, God's says He will place His Torah in His people...not just morals (Jeremiah 31:33).

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Why aren't sacrifices being conducted today? B/c Yeshua is the Melchizedek priest serving in the Temple in Heaven. This priesthood is not new and does not replace the Levitical Priesthood, for God said that the Levitical Priesthood is eternal. He, Yeshua, takes our prayers and lifts them up to God as a sweet aroma to Him. Why? B/c real prayer shows that God is the source of everything.

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There are no sacrifices today, because it is impossible to perform them according to God's instructions. Like I said, this completely contradicts the idea of Deut 30 that God's instructions are never impossible.

I would agree that the Word is the Torah is Christ, and all of creation was made through this. That's why it makes sense for some aspects of the written law to be see prior to Moses and many aspects of the written law to be followed even today. But Christ is Torah is Word is Eternal is God. The written Mosaic Law was clearly not meant to be eternal, or God would not have given us instructions that we could follow for 1000 years but then be unable to follow for 2000 years. Also, during the time of Daniel, the Jews were in exile for less than a century, and they were given prophets both before and during the exile with God constantly promising to restore them. We have only the old prophecies promising restoration, and we have no one for nearly 2000 years from God prophesying a restoration of the nation of Israel and the sacrificial system.

According to you I'm trying to spiritualize the Torah, while to me I'm only saying that the written Mosaic law is a materialization of the Torah. The only way I can make a very large portion of the Mosaic law applicable to my life is by spiritualizing it, otherwise it is largely inapplicable to my life.

Your premise if flawed fatally from the very beginning. No person who ever lived had all the Mosaic Laws apply to them, including Yeshua. Yehsua was not of the tribe of Levi, so all the Mosaic Laws applying to the earthly temple service by the priests did not apply to Him. Many Mosaic Laws are only for women, so none of them ever applied to Yeshua. So, by your premise, the Mosaic Laws are no less applicable to us than they were to Yeshua, which is to say all those that are actually applicable to us, are still 100% applicable to us, just as they were to Yeshua.

I agree that much of the law is target to certain groups. Many laws apply only to priests, levites, men, women, parents, etc. However, when a law has a limited scope, it is either outright stated (such as those relating to priests) or is plainly obvious (like cleanliness after childbirth). The laws relating to sacrifice are neither targeted explictly to a specific group nor is there any obvious limitation on their application whether by demographic or time frame.

You could say that impossible tasks don't apply to us, but that's pretty circular reasoning (God says His laws aren't impossible so all impossible laws don't apply to me). You're also opening a can of worms saying that some laws don't apply to you without having any textual context to justify that assertion. After all, you could extend an argument like that to just about any law.

Unless you are saying that the laws regarding sacrifice do not apply to me specifically, then the problem of their impossibility remains.

I actually agree with agie95 that prayer (and I'd add fasting) are the modern equivalent to sacrifice, but that still means we are abandoning the letter of the law.

Matthew 5:18
John 19:30
Colossians 2:14

The old law was fulfilled. It was nailed to the cross. It's original purpose was to bring mankind to Christ (Galatians 3:24). It's purpose today is found in Romans 15:4.

VetSurg said:

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Matthew 5:18
John 19:30
Colossians 2:14

The old law was fulfilled. It was nailed to the cross.

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The quotes you used, prove absolutely nothing of your assertion of any law passing away. Actually, quite the opposite.

Matthew 5:18-19 ""For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

By John 19:30 you assert ALL things in the scripture were accomplished? No prophecy remains? You deny the future resurrection of mankind? You deny the return of Jesus? Certainly not.

Colossians 2:14 "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

The word Law (Greek, nomos) appears nowhere in Colossians 2:14. The certificate of debt is the debt, or punishment, owed by your sins. That is what's nailed to the cross, not the Law.

In no other field of study, outside study of the Bible, would such ridiculous lack of basic linguistics and logic be tolerated for even one moment, but when it comes to reading the bible it is embraced by millions. It's almost as if some great evil power has gone out into the world to deceive mankind from the simpleness of God's truth.

OK, you're a slow learner.

Exodus 34:27-28-The law of Moses was a covenant with Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-12-Gentiles were without (outside) the Law.

Ephesians 2:13-16-The Law became a wall that separated Jews/Gentiles. Jesus died on the cross to make peace for Jews/Gentiles by abolishing the walls of hostility.

Galatians 3:8, 14-16 The promise to Abraham was that ALL nations (Jews and Gentiles) would be blessed through his seed (Christ). The promise to Abraham included ALL nations (Jews and Gentiles). The Law given to Moses and the Jews excluded all other nations.

Galatians 3:17-19, 21-25-The Abrahamic promise (that ALL would be blessed) was given 430 years before the Law was given to Moses. The Law could not impart life to the Jews. Because of sin, the Law was addd UNTIL Christ (the seed) should come. The Law served its' purpose by leading the Jews to Christ.

Romans 7:1-4-Jewish widow free to remarry, because death severed (ended) the law to her husband. Like an adulteress woman with two husbands, Jews following two laws (Law of Moses and Law of Christ) would be committing spiritual adultery.

At the cross, the Jews, through the body of Christ, died to the Law of Moses and were free to be remarried to Christ.

Romans 7:6-7-The Jews were released from the Law. The Gentiles were not released from the Law of Moses because they were never under it.

Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44-Jesus did not come to destroy the Law of Moses. But, he said the Law would pass away when all was fulfilled. The Law (and, yes, all OLD Testament prophecies) were fulfilled in Christ.

John 19:28-30-All was accomplished (fulfilled) when Christ died on the cross. The Jews were then released from the Mosaic Law, which was fulfilled and abolished.

Romans 15:4, I Corinthians 10:1-11-Purpose of the Old Testament today.

Matthew 17:1-5, 5:21-22, 27-28-The Father stated very clearly that now, we are to listen to His Son, NOT Moses or the prophets. The commands of Christ must be obeyed from the heart, and Christ requires obedience to His commands, which are contained in the Perfect Law of Liberty, the new covenant, the Law of Christ.

You provided certain verses which you think supports your belief. Someone (Win for life) shows you a different perspective of those verses. So you throw up additional verses to continue to try and support your position and add to that an insult to him calling him slow.

I am going to go over just a couple of the verses above for time sake. For many, if not all, of these verses have been discussed here If you want to further discuss those great. If you want to continue to cherry pick verses without any context then the discussion is going to end pretty quickly.

You state that Exodus 34:27:28 was a covenant with Israel. So is the "new" covenant - Jeremiah 31:30-32 - "Behold, days are coming"it is a declaration of Adonai"when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah 31 not like the covenant I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they broke My covenant, though I was a husband to them." it is a declaration of Adonai. 32 "But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days"it is a declaration of Adonai"I will put My Torah within them. Yes, I will write it on their heart. I will be their God and they will be My people.


Hebrews 8 and 10 both quote this passage from Jeremiah. Please notice the bolded part. The covenant is still with Israel and not the Gentiles. In this covenant God is going to place His Torah in them and write it on their heart. Them being whomever enters into the covenant. The Torah continues in today.

Just like their was a multitude that left Egypt, they turned towards God and became His people. They became part of Israel. Their was no distinction. Gentiles have always been allowed to join the covenant, to become part of Israel. This new covenant didn't change that. Anyone, Jew or Gentile, has to turn from their sinful ways and they can become part of Israel. They become Hebrews, Israel, Jews....yes Jews. All who turn to Him, all with a circumcised heart is a Jew (Romans 2:28-29, Megillah 13a). They all become sons of Abraham.

In the Millennial Kingdom, those who were formerly Gentiles (pagans) will join one of the 12 tribes. Some will get to be Levites and serve in the Temple preparing sacrifices. They will inherit part of the land.


The second one I will respond to is Ephesians 2. You think the wall that separated Jew and Gentile was the Torah and that Gentiles were outside the Torah - meaning it is not for them. That through the Messiah's flesh He abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances.

Let's deal with this last statement first. Did the Messiah abolish the Torah with His flesh, that is with His death? The Messiah Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets (Matthew 5:17). So either Paul is calling the Messiah a liar or abolishing the law of commandments contained in ordinances is something else. Let's see if the text gives us any clues as to what was abolished. In that we will address the wall that separated and Gentiles were outside the Torah.

Was the wall Torah? Did the Torah cause hostility between the groups by keeping them separate? This cannot be the case for Torah speaks specifically about Gentiles and how to deal with them:

1. Gentiles are not to be oppressed, but rather cared for, supported, taken into the home, and loved even as you would love yourself. (Exodus 22:21)

2. "You shall not oppress a stranger, since you yourselves know the feelings of a stranger, for you also were strangers in the land of Egypt. (Exodus 23:9

3. 'When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 19:33-34)

4. Gentiles are to be included in the Sabbath, gleanings, Torah regulations, and festivals.

"Six days you are to do your work, but on the seventh day you shall cease from labor so that your ox and your donkey may rest, and the son of your female slave, as well as your stranger, may refresh themselves. (Exodus 23:12)

The same law shall apply to the native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." (Exodus 12:49)

Nor shall you glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather the fallen fruit of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the needy and for the stranger. I am the Lord your God. (Leviticus 19:10)

There shall be one standard for you; it shall be for the stranger as well as the native, for I am the Lord your God.'" (Leviticus 24:22)

and you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your son and your daughter and your male and female servants and the Levite who is in your town, and the stranger and the orphan and the widow who are in your midst, in the place where the Lord your God chooses to establish His name. (Deuteornomy 16:11)

5. Gentiles in the Temple?

"Also concerning the foreigner who is not of Your people Israel, when he comes from a far country for Your name's sake 42 (for they will hear of Your great name and Your mighty hand, and of Your outstretched arm); when he comes and prays toward this house, 43 hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and do according to all for which the foreigner calls to You, in order that all the peoples of the earth may know Your name, to fear You, as do Your people Israel, and that they may know that this house which I have built is called by Your name. 1 Kings 8:41-43

"Also the foreigners who join themselves to the Lord, To minister to Him, and to love the name of the Lord,
To be His servants, every one who keeps from profaning the Sabbath And holds fast My covenant;
7 Even those I will bring to My holy mountain And make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be acceptable on My altar; Isaiah 56:6-7

6. Gentiles are equated with widows and orphans. The implication is that Gentiles ought to be treated with the same love and care as God tells us to give to widows and orphans.

For the Lord your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe. 18 He executes justice for the orphan and the widow, and shows His love for the alien by giving him food and clothing. 19 So show your love for the alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt. Deuteronomy 10:17-19

The Lord protects the strangers; He supports the fatherless and the widow, But He thwarts the way of the wicked. Psalm 146:9

"Then I will draw near to you for judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers and against the adulterers and against those who swear falsely, and against those who oppress the wage earner in his wages, the widow and the orphan, and those who turn aside the alien and do not fear Me," says the Lord of hosts. Malachi 3:5

If the Torah and the Prophets teaches these things we can conclude the dividing wall is NOT the outward expression of the Torah. The dividing wall is antithetical to the Torah. This wall creates separation whereas Torah teaches inclusion and care. The wall Paul describes did just the opposite, so how can the wall be a metaphor to the Torah?

7. It stands in contrast to what Paul said elsewhere.

Do we then nullify the Torah through faithfulness? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah. Romans 3:31

The word used for nullify is katarge. The same word used in Ephesians 2:15 for abolishing. Do we abolish the Torah through faith? Paul gives an emphatic NO.... May it never be. We uphold the Torah.

For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified. Romans 2:13

This is getting long, so I am going to shortcut the rest. If you have questions or want me to continue I can, but I will stop with this:


Paul begins Ephesians 2 saying to the Gentiles that you were dead due to sin, walking in the way of the world, disobedience. The Messiah's death paid the debt (Colossians 2:14) of sin. Once you were separate from the Messiah, the common wealth of Israel, strangers to the covenant, having no hope without God. Now you have been brought near. What was it that kept people separated from God? SIN. The hostility exists between the children of Satan and the children of God. The law of commandments expressed in ordinances is the way of the nations. Satan from the beginning has tried to separate man from God. He has tried to get people from obeying God's commandments.

If you don't understand the concept of physical Israel (under the Old Law) and spiritual Israel (under the Law of Christ), we're going to have to start more basic than I thought. Unfortunately, I don't have the time right now.

Please do come back when you have the time. Please help me understand why God said His Torah was forever, but not really forever. Please help me understand the Messiah said He came not to abolish the Torah and the prophets but to fulfill. Then proceeded to state that anyone annulling even the least of the commandments will be least in His kingdom. Please help me understand why prophet after prophet said to stop sinning and return to God, which is the same thing Yeshua said, but the Messiah's death changes all that. Of course, despite there not being one prophecy as to the Torah ending at any time. Please explain why in the Millennial the Torah is going to flow from Jerusalem. Why are sacrifices continuing, even the sin sacrifice. Why does Malachi say in 4:4 to remember the Law of Moses in the end days? Why does Paul and James both say it is not the hearers of the Torah that are just, but the doers.

Please help me understand!

I will when I have time, with the assumption you really want to understand. The short answer is that the Mosaic covenant was broken by the Jews, thus why it was not "forever", because of the Jews, not God. The "Law and the Prphets" did not pass away until all was fulfilled, which it was when Christ was crucified. Thus Colossians 2:14.

Romans and Hebrews are largely devoted to differentiating between the Old Law (Law of Moses) and the Perfect Law of Liberty (Law of Christ or Christian dispensation).

Most of us are Gentiles and were NEVER under the Old Law, which was a covenant between Israel and God, as I referenced in Exodus.

The New Testament makes references to spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem, which are references to Christians and the church. But, those have nothing to do with the Old Law, they simply represent God's people today (Christians), in the same way that the Jews were God's people under the Old Law.

I don't understand, you keep referencing Colossians 2:14 which says: He wiped out the handwritten record of debts with the decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He took it away by nailing it to the cross.

So He, the Messiah, paid our debt, which was sin.


So you say it was broken by the Jews, which is correct. Yet, God divorced the House of Israel, but never Judah. While the Jews did not live up to the covenant's components, He never divorced Judah. They are still together.

Everything has been fulfilled? Really? The resurrection? The second coming? Many prophecies still unfilled? So has everything been fulfilled or not?

Ah, so Christians are in and Jews are out type of thing. So you believe in Replacement Theology or Supersessionism. You might want to read Romans 11 again. Jeremiah says who the new covenant is with and it aint with the church. There are many passages stating that Israel will never be totally cast off like Jeremiah 31:35-36 -

"Only if this fixed order departs from before Me"it is a declaration of Adonai"then also might Israel's offspring cease from being a nation before Mefor all time." 36 Thus says Adonai: "Only if heaven above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, then also I will cast off the offspring of Israelfor all they have done." It is a declaration of Adonai.

I am all ears, but just know that I have a pretty good knowledge of Scripture (B"H) and you won't be able to just say something without Scriptural support that is in context.

For this discussion, I would like to agree on one thing. To speak about one subject, passage, etc at a time. We can use other passages to support this one subject/passage, but let's fully discuss something before going on to the next point. When these type of discussions go on and on it is b/c the players continue to just throw more and more out there trying to make something stick.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Look at the context, and it should be clear Paul is talking to Gentiles and the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" is a reference to the Mosaic Law.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This is a reference to "spiritual circumcision" of God's people today (Christians) contrasted with the physical corcumcision of the Jews (God's people under the Old Law).

Romans 4:13-16 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if they which are of the law beheirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith, that it might beby grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

"For if they that are of the law be heirs...."

So, what about the Jews, you ask?

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Gospel was preached first to the Jews. Those that accepted it, became citizens of the "New Jerusalem" and "spiritual Israel".

I think Romans 10:1-4 states it clearly;
Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

I forgot to address your question about Jeremiah 31;

Jeremiah 31:33-36 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

This is a prophecy about a coming covenant (Christianity), not the Old Law (see Hebrews 8:10, where it is quoted). Notice "covenant that I will make" and "after those days" and "forgive their iniquity and remember their sin no more". Forgiveness of sin is a blessing found in Christ. Under the Mosaic Law, there was only atonement and a "rolling forward" of sin.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

You used a great verse, but not correctly.

I probably should have just quoted Hebrews 8:6-13, which sums it up pretty clearly;

But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

VetSurg said:

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Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Look at the context, and it should be clear Paul is talking to Gentiles and the "handwriting of ordinances that was against us" is a reference to the Mosaic Law.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

This is a reference to "spiritual circumcision" of God's people today (Christians) contrasted with the physical corcumcision of the Jews (God's people under the Old Law).

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That is a lot of different topics. Let's start at the top and fully discuss Colossians 2.

Context....

v8 - See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to the Messiah

Paul is warning them not to be taken captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men..... Is the Torah related to philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men? No. The Torah came from G-d. Not men. Therefore, Paul could not be talking about Torah or Judaism at this point. But he could be talking about the Gnostics, we need to read more to be sure.

V11 - and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;

Did you know this was not new? Circumcision of the heart has ALWAYS been required. Deuteronomy 10:16, 30:6; Ezekiel 44:9; Jeremiah 4:4 all speak to circumcising one's heart. This is not a new and has always been a prerequisite to be in covenant with God.

v14 - having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Many believe the Torah was nailed to the cross, but if you read carefully, the debt we owed for sinning against the Torah was nailed to the cross. The debt was hostile to us. Why? Due to our sin, we deserve to die. God paid our debt on our behalf. He died in our place. It is the debt we are released from. Now we can be free.

I know you still disagree, but let's look at other verses that can confirm this:

and from Messiah Yeshua, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by His blood Revelation 1:5


I contend that nothing thus far as been against the Torah or Judasim.


v16-17 - Therefore, do not let anyone pass judgment on you in matters of food or drink, or in respect to a festival or new moon or Shabbat. 17 These are a foreshadowing of things to come, but the reality is Messiah.

The Messiah triumphed therefore don't let anyone judge you for following these things. Don't let anyone take you captive through philosophy or empty deception according to the tradition of men. These items in verse 16 are not traditions of men. They are from God. They are a joy to participate in which those who were judging the Colossians did not think was right...which we will see in just a second.

v18 - Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind,


Self-abasement and worship of angels. Again nothing from Judaism. There is nothing within Torah telling people to self-abase themselves and nothing about worshiping angels. These are practices of the Gnostics. No joy is to be had in celebrating the festivals, Shabbat. No wine or good food.

More warnings against the practices of the Gnostics:

v20-22 - If you have died with the Messiah to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?

Again, principles of this world...do not handle, do not taste, do not touch - all from the commandments and teachings of men. Many believe when it mentions commandments it has to be talking about commandments from that old thing...the Tanakh (what you call Old Testatement). Again, nothing in the Torah tells people to not handle, taste or touch and everything in the Torah is from G-d. This teaching is from the Gnostics.

The last verse v23 - These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

Clearly, Paul shows he cannot be talking about Judaism, the Pharisees, or Torah. The Gnostics were coming in and telling the Colossians that they could not take joy in a festival, Shabbat etc. They must self-abase. Paul was warning do not listen to those teaching from teachings of men. The festivals and Shabbat are a time of joy and lots of celebration.


Context....

One thing at a time....you are just throwing whatever you can up right now. That is not a discussion. Let's discuss your first point. Colossians 2.

The Sorry, it's hard not to throw up lots of things when there are so many ways to prove that the Old Law was abolished.

I don't know what "version" of the Bible you are quoting from, but I see no "debt" in the Greek, relative to Colossians 2:14.

"Traditions" were not peculiar to gnostics, as Paul admits when speaking of his former Judaism in Galatians 1:13-14;

For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.

Notice also "in time past in the Jew's religion",....

More on the Jews problems with traditions;

Matthew 15:3-6 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to hisfather or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

And if you don't see the "context" of Colossians 2:16 (Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days) being a reference to Jews/Judaism, you're clearly not interested in exogesis.

He was telling them not to pay attention to Jews or Judaizers who would "judge them" as not following God because they no longer followed the Old Law relative to abstaining from certain meats or not observing the Passover, Pentecost, etc. or not observing the sabbath.

mosaic law? boring.

i'm more interested in mosaic hops.

schmendeler said:

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mosaic law? boring.

i'm more interested in mosaic hops.

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I'm more interested in what's on my schedule for tonight:

The Greek.

'

The words used for handwriting of ordinances or the handwritten record of debts is ' .

The handwriting or cheirographon, is what one has written with their own hand. In other words, you wrote this decree against yourself.

The ordinances or dogma per the Thayer's Greek Lexicon says the bond (debt) against us by its decrees. This word is used all of 5 times in times in the Gospels-Epistles. It is used to show a decree from something other than God.

Luke 2:1 - And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree (dogma) from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.

Acts 16:4 - And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees (dogma) for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.


Acts 17:7 - Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees (dogma) of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Yeshua.

Ephesians 2:15 - having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances (dogma); for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Not once is this ever used to speak of the commandments given by God.


Never did I say traditions pertained only to Gnostics. Hence I said, after that verse that we will see based on the rest of the passage what was Paul speaking about on traditions of men. He later clarified about which traditions he was speaking of by speaking about debasing one-self which is not a Torah commandment or even a tradition of Judaism. Neither is worshiping angels which is against Torah! The Gnostics were judging the people in Colossia about enjoying the festivals and Paul said don't let them judge you for enjoying the festivals, etc.

Plus Paul said they (festivals) are a shadow as to what is to come. Interesting....not here yet, but to come. We still have 4 more festivals for the Messiah to fulfill!

The Messiah never said don't do the traditions. Just don't allow them to nullify or be equal to God's commandments.

I am trying to discuss this passage with you, but you have failed to prove anything to me. Verse 14 says nothing about Torah, yet you insist that it does. You have provided nothing to me that shows the traditions of men in v8 is Judaism. You just state it is. That is not a discussion.

1. The doctrine, decree, ordinance
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Please note #2. It is this definition that is demanded by the context of both Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15.

And I ask again, where are you getting "debts"?

Quote:

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The ordinances or dogma per the Thayer's Greek Lexicon says the bond (debt) against us by its decrees. This word is used all of 5 times in times in the Gospels-Epistles. It is used to show a decree from something other than God.

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VetSurg said:

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1. The doctrine, decree, ordinance
2. the rules and requirements of the law of Moses; carrying a suggestion of severity and of threatened judgment
3. of certain decrees of the apostles relative to right living

Please note #2. It is this definition that is demanded by the context of both Colossians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:15.

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The context does not demand anything. If Ephesians 2:15 is about Torah then that is a direct contradiction to the Messiah's own words in Matthew 5:17. Did He abolish or did He not abolish?

I have already provided a pretty in depth analysis of Ephesians 2 above. You might want to read it.

What is the source of your definitions?

You totally ignore the Revelation 1:5 citation which supports my view that we are released from our sins...not the Torah. There are other verses as well.

Another source about dogma, The Expanded Vine's Exposition Dictionary of New Testament Words, says dogma, transliterated in English, primarily denoted an opinion or judgement, hence, an opinion expressed with authority, a doctrine ordinance, decree;

The Strong's concordance gives the same exact definition.

It does not mean Torah, Mosaic Law or anything of the sort.

I don't know what you're looking at. The second entry in Thayer's Greek Lexicon is "of the rules or requirements of the Law of Moses".

Christ did not come to abolish, but to fulfill the Old Law, which he did.

Once the Law was fulfilled, in Christ, it was abolished, which promoted Paul to say, in Galatians 5:3-6;

Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

"Circumcised" references Judaism and "law" represents the Mosaic Law. It's not at all difficult to understand, but may be difficult for some to accept.

Forgot to address your Revelation 1:5 confusion.

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

I don't know why you struggle with this. Yes, we (Christians) have been washed free of our sins by the blood of Christ. We are under the Perfect Law of Liberty, not the Mosaic Law, because....

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.