What place do I have in your world?

3,387 Views | 62 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by 85Photon
americathegreat1492
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Well, if heaven is a place on earth, as per Belinda Carlisle, then the obvious corollary is hell can also be a place on earth.
BusterAg
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AG
So, you believe Christianity to be the "pinnacle" of a "kind of truth [that shows how to] act or be in that world," and you have had "multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ," yet this is not enough evidence for you?

If you truly believe that Christianity is truth because it teaches you how to live a full life, lean into it, study it more. The fact is, it is so truthful in that regard, that truth is the solid rational argument that you are looking for. The Christian instruction on how to live you life to the fullest is so true, radical and fulfilling that the truth of the message is all the evidence you need for belief in Jesus' divinity.
americathegreat1492
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Quote:

multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ," yet this is not enough evidence for you?
Question. Not enough evidence for what? Enough evidence of the existence of the Christ? Enough evidence for the literal interpretation of scripture? Something in between?
Amazing Moves
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Quote:

Based on my study, I find the mythological, big picture, of Christianity to be the pinnacle of this second kind of truth (Note: I am using the definition of myth that religious scholars use and not using it to demean religion). I have also had multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ. In none of my study and in none of my experiences do I find it compelling to use a literalist view of the Bible or of the teachings in it.
  • Claims of direct experiences with Jesus.
  • Pro-Science.
  • No literalist view of the Bible.

In this world that makes you a Catholic.
americathegreat1492
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Amazing Moves said:

Quote:

Based on my study, I find the mythological, big picture, of Christianity to be the pinnacle of this second kind of truth (Note: I am using the definition of myth that religious scholars use and not using it to demean religion). I have also had multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ. In none of my study and in none of my experiences do I find it compelling to use a literalist view of the Bible or of the teachings in it.
  • Claims of direct experiences with Jesus.
  • Pro-Science.
  • No literalist view of the Bible.

In this world that makes you a Catholic.

I mean, I'm super excited by the rational/theological tradition of western Catholicism. I just wish both science and religion could find a way, as a group of people, to move behind the conceptions in both.
wargograw
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First off your experience, if it is God at all, would be with the Holy Spirit, not Jesus.

Secondly, even for the saints the Bible is not all literal. There is a lot of symbolism in there. Maybe you don't know how to distinguish between the real and the symbolic?

Thirdly, while the Bible does lay down good and perfect law, you do realize that following it does not save you, right? That your works of lawfulness are as filthy rags before the Lord? Moreover, do you know what the punishment for your myriad violations of those laws is? Do you know how to be spared that punishment? Do you think you will be?

Haven't read the entire thread, but just some things to think about.
americathegreat1492
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wargograw said:

First off your experience, if it is God at all, would be with the Holy Spirit, not Jesus.

Secondly, even for the saints the Bible is not all literal. There is a lot of symbolism in there. Maybe you don't know how to distinguish between the real and the symbolic?

Thirdly, while the Bible does lay down good and perfect law, you do realize that following it does not save you, right? That your works of lawfulness are as filthy rags before the Lord? Moreover, do you know what the punishment for your myriad violations of those laws is? Do you know how to be spared that punishment? Do you think you will be?

Haven't read the entire thread, but just some things to think about.
This post pretty much fills in all the blanks in the stereotype. 'Perciate it.
wargograw
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What stereotype?
Post removed:
by user
Amazing Moves
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First thing I suspected too. This sounds like one of his practice sessions.
americathegreat1492
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I'm not bustup for what it's worth.
Texaggie7nine
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I thought bustup was a strict RCC.
7nine
BusterAg
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AG
americathegreat1492 said:



Quote:

multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ," yet this is not enough evidence for you?
Question. Not enough evidence for what? Enough evidence of the existence of the Christ? Enough evidence for the literal interpretation of scripture? Something in between?
The first part of that sentence is very key. The strength of the philosophy of Jesus is very strong evidence of his divinity. It is evidence that:

1) There is a God
2) Jesus is his son; and
3) Christianity is the way to live the life of most fulfillment and joy.
americathegreat1492
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BusterAg said:

americathegreat1492 said:



Quote:

multiple direct experiences with the presence of Jesus Christ," yet this is not enough evidence for you?
Question. Not enough evidence for what? Enough evidence of the existence of the Christ? Enough evidence for the literal interpretation of scripture? Something in between?
The first part of that sentence is very key. The strength of the philosophy of Jesus is very strong evidence of his divinity. It is evidence that:

1) There is a God
2) Jesus is his son; and
3) Christianity is the way to live the life of most fulfillment and joy.
As I've come to realize, this is probably going to make me sound like an ass:


1) That depends on what you mean by God.

2) That depends on what you mean by Jesus and by son

3) That depends on what you mean by Christianity, not to mention fulfillment and joy.
swimmerbabe11
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he's still posting as HTbduece or whatever

I don't know who this poster is, but I have some guesses.
americathegreat1492
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I'd be surprised if anyone "guessed" who I am. I've never been well known on any forum.
swimmerbabe11
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you are making a splash across all the different boards in quick fashion though. Makes it hard to believe that you haven't been here/posting regularly for a while
americathegreat1492
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I've had previous accounts, sure. That doesn't mean I would consider myself well known at all. I've been very much on the outside looking in and mostly a lurker.
Texaggie7nine
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Why is it always the lurkers that seem to have banned accounts and need to start posting with new ones and they post like seasoned veteran posters?
7nine
americathegreat1492
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Well, idk why this matters for people taking me seriously, but I can PM anyone that cares about my previous user name. I got banned something like a year ago and have been lurking since. Read and listened to a hell of a lot since then.
Texaggie7nine
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I don't really mind because you obviously are quite different from bustup. I don't recall you spouting off alt-right "darker people don't have high IQ's and therefore cannot live peacefully in western society" tripe so you are cool in my book.
7nine
americathegreat1492
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Thanks. I'm afraid I have to disappoint. I'm kind of curious about the whole thing. IQ is extremely heritable and it differs considerably based on nation. I have to wonder if people with IQ's below 80 are capable of understanding and supporting a democratic republic. Having said that, at least some, or even the majority of that, could be due to something like socioeconomic status. Others have said it better than I can, but the basic idea is moving someone from very low on the IQ potential scale to high requires a much greater change in SES for a relatively small change in IQ. I'm willing to admit that I don't know the answers to these questions. I would prefer that people that come to America espouse commitment to American values, but I think it's worthwhile to discuss what exactly those values are, and how exactly one determines commitment to them. I don't think these things are easy questions.
Texaggie7nine
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So you are toying with alt-right ideas. Like I said earlier, it is strange that all these new names popping up seem to gravitate towards those same ideas.

7nine
americathegreat1492
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Intelligence has to be part of the package, tough I'm not sure what the break even point is. If it wasn't, people wouldn't find this funny:


Texaggie7nine
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Have you ever watched documentaries on or read about the people with down syndrome that have, for the most part, independent lives? They have jobs, live away from their parents ect. If you snapped your fingers and magically created millions more of these people I do not think it would put our republic or culture at risk, it would probably just create a lot more people that would be happy to do lower level work. Because we still have the millions and millions of people who are intelligently capable of running things.

Even in Idiocracy , it wasn't just the genetic dumbing down of the nation but mainly the cultural decline that caused the future to be so horrible. People that knew how to read and speak properly were called derogatory words.

And this argument is with assuming that people in non western counries are on the whole less genetically capable of having kids with high IQs, which I don't really buy.

As Sam Harris says, the variance of scores within each race is far larger than the variance from race to race, so it's really a pointless statistic.
7nine
americathegreat1492
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Texaggie7nine said:

Have you ever watched documentaries on or read about the people with down syndrome that have, for the most part, independent lives? They have jobs, live away from their parents ect. If you snapped your fingers and magically created millions more of these people I do not think it would put our republic or culture at risk, it would probably just create a lot more people that would be happy to do lower level work. Because we still have the millions and millions of people who are intelligently capable of running things.

Even in Idiocracy , it wasn't just the genetic dumbing down of the nation but mainly the cultural decline that caused the future to be so horrible. People that knew how to read and speak properly were called derogatory words.

And this argument is with assuming that people in non western counries are on the whole less genetically capable of having kids with high IQs, which I don't really buy.

As Sam Harris says, the variance of scores within each race is far larger than the variance from race to race, so it's really a pointless statistic.
I'm quite aware of not only people with down's syndrome but also those with other heritable intellectual dysfunctions. It's not that these people can't exist independently in society to an extent, they definitely can. It's more a question of whether they can think logically about the results of their and other people's actions. My answer is that I don't know. I don't know what the limit is on that. There is without a doubt a limit. The limit doesn't exist on full scale IQ but on one or a number of the subscales. And it's not a trivial difference. Even if you accept the culture argument you have to accept that something is causing people to not only accept but choose to engage in higher levels of corruption. Maybe it is just culture. Maybe it isn't. It doesn't seem obvious to me that one or the other is the only explanation.
85Photon
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AG
OP would be welcomed to any fellowship I've been a part of in the last few decades. We aren't "Stepford Wives" or androids or any other trope. Sincere questions and seekers are always welcome. You're on a journey of discovery. I think sincere Christians have some good answers for you. I think the rank and file and message boards are a very messy way to get to the truth, but it's your journey.

The basis of our truth is in scripture, I'd start there. It's at least the most valid starting point for discussion about our faith.
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