Jehovah's Witnesses Effectively Banned in Russia

2,278 Views | 27 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by PacifistAg
Sapper Redux
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/04/20/russia-just-effectively-banned-jehovahs-witnesses-from-the-country/?utm_term=.8219a1eae8d0

Quote:

After years, even decades, of persecution against the religious group, the Kremlin moved to get rid of the denomination for good. In February, Jehovah's Witnesses were labeled "extremists" and locked out of their offices.

Then Kremlin officials launched a legal effort to ban the faith. That case quickly wound its way to the Supreme Court, where Justice Ministry attorney Svetlana Borisova said the Christian group posed a "threat" to "public order and public security."
....
Experts like Alexander Verkhovsky, who monitors extremism in Russia, say there is no evidence that Jehovah's Witnesses are a public threat. "I cannot imagine that anyone really thinks they are a threat," he told the New York Times. "But they are seen as a good target. They are pacifists, so they cannot be radicalized, no matter what you do to them."

As The Washington Post reported earlier this month:

But experts say there's something different going on today. The church's 170,000 Russian members don't vote, won't serve in the military and refuse to attend national celebrations that glorify violence. That means they often avoid state-sponsored rallies celebrating, say, the annexation of Crimea. That's a problem for Russian President Vladimir Putin, who is naturally suspicious of groups with pro-Western sympathies (the sect is based in the United States). It's also a way for him to show support to the Russian Orthodox Church.

Experts see it, too, as part of a broader campaign against Russian civil society using the 2002 anti-extremism law. Officially, the rule was touted as a measure against radicalized violence from homegrown and foreign terrorists. But it's been broadly interpreted, used to jail anyone from anti-government activists to Muslims with no ties to terrorism or violence.



Very disturbing to see this sort of repression happen.
PacifistAg
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AG
First they ban evangelizing outside of state-approved churches. Now this. Refusing to bow to the state is always going to be viewed as subversive by the state.
schmendeler
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AG
and there are people on this site that look to russia as something america should aspire to...
Serotonin
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AG
The JW's are not physically harming people but they are undermining societal constructs that the Russians find important.

It's similar to softly grabbing a female's rear end or saying the N word in America. Both have zero physical harm involved but are atrocious to our society and will quickly find the perp out of a job or worse. And I'm completely supportive of that! If you want to be "that guy", then you have to deal with the consequences, period.

The ultimate problem here is that we don't view their societal construct as valid, like we do our own. The reason for that is the more interesting discussion.
Sapper Redux
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That's a pretty disturbing view of persecution for belief. The Russian people should have the right to decide what they do and don't believe. Not an oligarch and his church cronies.
Serotonin
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AG
Dr. Watson said:

That's a pretty disturbing view of persecution for belief. The Russian people should have the right to decide what they do and don't believe. Not an oligarch and his church cronies.

Sounds like you have a (classical) liberal view on the situation. I'm not being sarcastic, I really do appreciate that you are consistent in your beliefs in individual freedom from State interference. Russia obviously has a different outlook and places a priority on cultural values to an extent we don't.

Imagine if , some day far in the future, American business owners couldn't freely discriminate based on any metric they chose, whether monetary, social, racial, etc. in hiring or service. And imagine that the government enforced "compliance" with such overbearing laws.

I'm grateful that (classical) liberals would stand up for the business owner's right to deviate from the prevailing culture, even if it offended or hurt many people in the process.
schmendeler
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PacifistAg
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Gator03 said:

It's similar to softly grabbing a female's rear end or saying the N word in America.

No. No it's really nothing like that. Not at all.
Serotonin
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AG
RetiredAg said:

Gator03 said:

It's similar to softly grabbing a female's rear end or saying the N word in America.

No. No it's really nothing like that. Not at all.

Good point! For Russians there is far more at stake than the frivolous things I mentioned. It is a metaphysical view of the world and the cultural fabric of society.

Please note that I don't agree with the Russians here. I love religious liberty. And State religion ends up stumbling over itself and leading to its own ruin.

The only point of posting devils advocate responses here is that if we are to "judge" other societies based on the State rolling over religious and individual rights, let's make sure we are even more vigilant of it our own society.
americathegreat1492
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I really don't like this.
schmendeler
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AG
Gator03 said:

RetiredAg said:

Gator03 said:

It's similar to softly grabbing a female's rear end or saying the N word in America.

No. No it's really nothing like that. Not at all.

Good point! For Russians there is far more at stake than the frivolous things I mentioned. It is a metaphysical view of the world and the cultural fabric of society.

Please note that I don't agree with the Russians here. I love religious liberty. And State religion ends up stumbling over itself and leading to its own ruin.

The only point of posting devils advocate responses here is that if we are to "judge" other societies based on the State rolling over religious and individual rights, let's make sure we are even more vigilant of it our own society.


Except in our society those complaining about religious rights being infringed involves them not being able to force their views on others. Not the free practice of their religion itself.
swimmerbabe11
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Gator03 said:

RetiredAg said:

Gator03 said:

It's similar to softly grabbing a female's rear end or saying the N word in America.

No. No it's really nothing like that. Not at all.

Good point! For Russians there is far more at stake than the frivolous things I mentioned.



Try grabbing my ass and see how frivilously I put you in pain.
PacifistAg
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AG
Quote:

For Russians there is far more at stake than the frivolous things I mentioned

Sexually assaulting a woman or calling a black person the n-word aren't frivolous.

I get what you're trying to say, but it's such a horrible comparison. This is real persecution they, and the non-Russian Orthodox Christians, are facing. From a Christian standpoint, there's nothing remotely comparable to it here in America. We have it so well here that we have started making up widespread persecution in our heads.
kurt vonnegut
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94chem
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Only groups that pre-date the Revolution are allowed to proselytize. Lutherans, Orthodox, and Baptists, and I guess Catholics. That's why every missionary in Russia is either Lutheran or Baptist. I don't know how the JW's or Mormons got there in the first place.
Woody2006
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AG
Maybe they should have quit knocking on people's doors all the time...
Ol_Ag_02
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I think they're a few here that would love to have a state sponsored religion, that effectively banned all other sects.
dds08
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Jehova's witnesses disagree with the concept of blood transfusions. I am concerned a lot of them will face unnecessary death.

The sooner they realize that no amount of effort of knocking on doors will save them any more or less (or at all), the better off they will be.
Maroon Flash
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Fines of several thousand and 6-10 years prison for non-compliance.
schmendeler
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i'm curious if the orthodox church has come out against this?
IDAGG
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schmendeler said:

i'm curious if the orthodox church has come out against this?
I am guessing the answer is no. Putin and the Russian Orthodox church have a symbiotic relationship. He supports them, and in return, they support him. It is in effect the state religion.
BusterAg
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AG
I agree with the crux of Gator's point here. The things that the JW's were doing, specifically, not supporting the communist government, is seen as much more offensive in Russia than it would be in the United States.

A soft pat on the rear is not nearly as likely to get you fired in France as it is in the US.

The cultural norms are different. That doesn't mean that what Russia did here was anything close to being OK, but the JWs were playing with fire by blatantly opposing the government, and many Russians are more likely to view the situation that way than we are.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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dds08 said:

Jehova's witnesses disagree with the concept of blood transfusions.


Just a funny aside on this comment.... I think if a JW ever sits down and talks with me, they will think I am the devil incarnate as a practicing Roman Catholic who works in Blood banking...
PacifistAg
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AG

Quote:

The things that the JW's were doing, specifically, not supporting the communist government, is seen as much more offensive in Russia than it would be in the United States.
Is it really that much more offensive in Russia than here in America? It's certainly handled more harshly by the government, but I don't know I'd say that about the average person. Look at the outrage, in America, when people don't stand for the anthem, or refuse to pledge allegiance, or oppose popular wars, or even desecrate national symbols like a flag. Heck, just the other day, a pastor told me I don't "deserve this country" and called me "treasonous" because I said my allegiance belongs solely to God, not country.
swimmerbabe11
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This is a dumb question...but does treason have to explicitly benefit a different country? or just harming the structure of one's country?

Wait, nvm. Guy ****e's day deal was treason cause he plotted against his country but not for benefit of another.

Got it. Thanks for listening to my stream of consciousness.



Edit....wow unexpected filter much?
BusterAg
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AG
RetiredAg said:


Quote:

The things that the JW's were doing, specifically, not supporting the communist government, is seen as much more offensive in Russia than it would be in the United States.
Is it really that much more offensive in Russia than here in America? It's certainly handled more harshly by the government, but I don't know I'd say that about the average person. Look at the outrage, in America, when people don't stand for the anthem, or refuse to pledge allegiance, or oppose popular wars, or even desecrate national symbols like a flag. Heck, just the other day, a pastor told me I don't "deserve this country" and called me "treasonous" because I said my allegiance belongs solely to God, not country.

Yeah, some patriotic people here. I generally don't like rude people, and he should not have treated you this way, but actually do support patriotism and the right for this guy to be rude.

But, if you got thrown into jail for the same thing, me and a whole bunch of your fellow Americans would be at the jailhouse with pitchforks. In Russia, not so much. Big difference.
swimmerbabe11
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Preferably pitchforks that used to be guns, right?
PacifistAg
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AG
Edited because I didn't want to derail the thread, especially on something that's really just a matter of opinion.
PacifistAg
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swimmerbabe11 said:

Preferably pitchforks that used to be guns, right?
Okay, I laughed.
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