Memories are just electrical circuits in your brain.

1,193 Views | 23 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by opk
amercer
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AG
http://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2017/04/20/524374825/electrical-stimulation-to-boost-memory-maybe-its-all-in-the-timing

Slightly trollish thread title for an interesting study on memory.

Quote:

People with a brain injury or dementia often struggle to remember simple things, like names or places. In research published Thursday in the journal Current Biology, scientists have shown it may be possible to improve this sort of memory using tiny pulses of electricity if they're properly timed.


My R&P take on this is if "you" are basically just your collection of memories then the ability to physically manipulate those memories is the ability to fundamentally change who a person is.
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Diyala Nick
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AG
Take it to the electro-chemistry board!
BusterAg
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There is also something to the wiring, as in the path of dendrite networks in your brain.
americathegreat1492
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Related question: are animals conscious? Not necessarily self-conscious, but just conscious.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

My R&P take on this is if "you" are basically just your collection of memories then the ability to physically manipulate those memories is the ability to fundamentally change who a person is.

Except we don't really believe that people are only a collection of their memories. When someone goes into a coma and wakes with amnesia, we don't give them a new identity. They still have the same identity they had before the coma even if they don't remember any of it. The people around them still care for them and try to help them "get their life back".

When people change their behavior over time, we might refer to them as a "completely different person", but we don't actually believe they have become someone new. Even people that uproot and start entirely new lives with new identities are still considered the same person.

Even major changes to the body such as loss of limbs and organ transplants don't make someone a different person (though the upcoming brain transplant if successful may challenge that)

So if it's not memories, relationships, environment, or physical integrity, then how do we say what is "you"? I would say the idea has been profoundly influenced by religion and the idea of the soul. Neither amnesia, change in body organs, nor change in stated identity and life change the unique soul of one person into someone else entirely.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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747Ag
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amercer
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Im not sure I agree. Think of someone with Alzheimer's. Once all of their memories are gone, they aren't really the same person anymore.

In your example of amnesia, the person may accept that the people telling them that they are his friends and family are in fact that, but without memories he will never really interact with them like he would have before.

It's a fascinating question though. I don't know how much research there is because my guess is that true full amnesia is very, very rare. Still it would be interesting to know how much personality is hard wired. Does an avid runner who gets amnesia start running again on their own. If someone had a terrible temper before do they still?

We have a very basic idea of where some functions are physically located in the brain, but still very little understanding of how they work together.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Im not sure I agree. Think of someone with Alzheimer's. Once all of their memories are gone, they aren't really the same person anymore.

I think we're talking past each other a little bit. I have heard plenty of people say "that's not my father anymore" due to diseases like dementia. But we never legally change their identity, and the person is not really acting like his father has become a completely different person. He is just saying that his father is acting very different from how he acted before he was sick.
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Ulrich
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IIRC, Hofstadter basically hypothesizes that there's no such thing as a persistent identity. "You" now is a different person than you 10 minutes ago or 10 minutes from now.
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amercer
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What we say and what we do don't always reflect reality. Also in the case of Alzheimer's, the person may be gone, but the caregivers memories are not. It's a really ****y disease.
amercer
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I can't really go that far. That's like defining a cloud by the number of water molecules.

Sure we change a little every day. But my core self is very similar to what it was yesterday, 5 years ago, or 20 years ago. I think "formative years" are a real thing.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

What we say and what we do don't always reflect reality
You could say that, but I tend to think societal conventions as a whole are more indicative of reality than the musings of a philosopher. While these issues may seem abstract, saying that someone becomes a literal different person with a different identity when they get dementia, for instance, could have profound societal implications. Just think about health care, pensions, savings, property ownership, inheritance, marriage contracts, etc. Do all those things become null and void with a dementia diagnosis? After all, why would this new person be able to lay claim to the things his body was engaged in before he changed identity?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
DirtDiver
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Think about how to perform a certain task such as tie a fishing knot or walking through the house you lived in before your current one. Visualize what the console in your vehicle looks like. It's pretty fascinating how memories work. You can picture the color, shapes, methods, and more and even describe them to another. Seems like something far more complicated than an electrical impulse.
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amercer
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This gets at my point for posting the article. While it is very complicated, is seems like science will soon be able to define memory in completely physical terms.

That has some philosophical implications...
747Ag
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Eliminatus
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Very interested in this topic. I'm one of those who came back with my brain somewhat scrambled. The physical effects I was able to amend to a functional level via months of rehab like being able to look up without falling over or walking up stairs.

The cognitive side I struggle with to this day. It is one of the worst things I have ever been through. Frustration to the point of tears sometimes. It is incredibly damning when you can't trust your own brain. There are workarounds and tricks of course. But this route of research is pertinent to me and I am excited by the prospects.

Thanks for sharing!
bmks270
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I don't see it as so perplexing. People can change themselves overtime. Both internal changes like forming new habits (which change pathways) or external changes such as from trauma can change a person. A person changes from age 5 to 10 to age 50. We are always changing in some way, and sometimes it can be drastic and other times not. Identifying traits and behaviors and how people view themselves and others view them can also change.

But each body is held responsible for its actions.
BusterAg
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Ulrich said:

IIRC, Hofstadter basically hypothesizes that there's no such thing as a persistent identity. "You" now is a different person than you 10 minutes ago or 10 minutes from now.
The movie "Her" was pretty interesting in the regard.
BusterAg
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amercer said:

This gets at my point for posting the article. While it is very complicated, is seems like science will soon be able to define memory in completely physical terms.

That has some philosophical implications...


Another interesting show about the topic.
opk
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"We are all but memory and breath".

---Wise man
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