Truth

2,034 Views | 47 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by PacifistAg
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Yes, remember the Mishkan is a shadow of what was above. Sacrifices are going on today in the tabernacle in heaven.

C'mon!

So how do you rationalize the actions of both Elijah and God in 1 Kings 18? Elijah built an offer on Mt Carmel, offered a sacrfice, and God accepted this sacrifice. This was after the Temple was built, and Elijah clearly violated the commandment I quoted. If that commandment is an eternal truth, then Elijah must be cut off from the people of Israel for his unsanctioned sacrifice, except that God showed through His miracle that he did sanction the sacrifice.
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tehmackdaddy
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agie95 said:

tehmackdaddy said:

The first generations were not to eat meat, then after the flood humans were permitted to eat most types of meat.

Just because God may seem to change His mind doesn't mean He changes His mind.
Not true. Humans were not permitted to eat most types of meat. The word remez (every moving thing) is never used in the Bible to mean all meat.

Second, different worlds require different rules. During the flood the days of creation happened again. After the flood it is a different world than it was prior to the flood.

It's exactly true, which is why you have to come up with a made up, unBiblical exception to explain why this example doesn't refute your supposition.
craigernaught
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Quote:

True, human beings are utterly sinful - they are greedy, prideful, unloving, etc.
...and long-winded
agie95
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Did Elijah or God cause the sacrifice to occur?
ramblin_ag02
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Based solely on the commandment I quoted, I don't see how it would matter. Elijah clearly offered up a sacrifice many, many miles away from the Temple. The commandment states that anyone offering such a sacrifice will be cut off from the people of Israel.

Even if Elijah was commanded by God to do this, that is still no defense. After all, God does not command prophets to violate Torah. You've made that point yourself many times when talking about both Jesus and Paul
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DirtDiver
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I could agree if that was the context and also if the word wasn't used as to know something in general elsewhere. The Greek word is ginsk and means to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, feel. It can also be an idiom to know someone intimately - as in sexual intercourse.

I am pretty sure you are not intending to say we should know God in the manner of sexual intercourse

Know in 1 John 2:3 is the same exact word used in Matthew 1:25. 25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

You see in Matthew Mary and Joseph knew each other but they didn't "KNOW" each other as far as relational intimacy. 1 John is not talking about coming to have perverted sexual intimacy with God and fellow believers but it is talking about a deep relational fellowship with God and other believers.

John tells us how to have eternal life and know God.
1 John tells believers only how to have fellowship with God and other believers.
A person can have eternal life and be out of fellowship with the Father thus being out of fellowship. In fact most of the NT letters are written to believers who already have eternal and giving them instructions on how to have better fellowship/obedience..

Also notice how many times the author of 1 John uses the word 'we'. We have come to know Him. It does not make sense for someone who doesn't know God to include himself in coming to know Him if this is relationship vs. fellowship.

  • We know 1 John is written to believers: 12 I am writing to you, little children, because your sins have been forgiven you for His name's sake.
  • but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected - notice the progression.
  • the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked - abiding requires walking
  • John 20:32 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

John is about believing and eternal life.
1 John is about abiding and having fellowship.

1 John what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.4 These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

agie95
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Quote:


It's exactly true, which is why you have to come up with a made up, unBiblical exception to explain why this example doesn't refute your supposition.

Unbiblical? Maybe that which you don't understand you shouldn't be so quick to condemn. Just b/c you don't see something doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I have learned that many times. Sometimes I have to put something on a shelf (in my mind) b/c I don't understand it. Time and time again, a light bulb moment happens and I then understand the item I placed on the shelf. Just something to think about.

Let's take a look at Scripture and see how "unbiblical" it is:

There is a real connection between Creation in Genesis 1 and Genesis 7-8. The English you probably don't see it, but in the Hebrew it is very clear.


Genesis 1:2a - in the beginning G-d created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and void.

Formless and void in Hebrew is Tohu Vavohu. The Hebrew suggests the words mean it was astonishingly void, very chaotic, no order.

Genesis 1:2b - darkness was upon the face of the deep - V'choshech al pnei tehom and the spirit of G-d was hovering over the face of the waters - V'ruach Elokim merachephet al pnei hamayim

Water is everywhere, the (Spirit) Ruach is hovering over these waters. Ruach can be translated as either spirit or wind depending on the context of the verse. The spirit is hovering over these chaotic, astonishingly void waters. There is darkness as well.

So put the three items together what do you get? Water, water everywhere, it's really dark, and it's chaotic, so chaotic waters looks like storm-tossed waves all over the place. It looks like a really big storm, like a flood.

What happened in chapter 7-8. A big storm, water everywhere.

Okay there is water everywhere in Genesis 1 and 8, but that it not evidence of a re-creation. I agree, so let's continue.

Now, as Noah and the animals were on the ark what happens in the 1st verse of chapter 8? - and God caused a wind to pass over the earth - Vaya'aver Elokim ruach al ha'aretz.

I bolded the word ruach for you. A wind passed over the earth. Remember I said earlier that ruach can mean spirit and it can mean wind. There's a wind/spirit of God that passes over the earth!

In 1:2, which is reminding us so much of the flood, a verse which describes a water world that's chaotic, that's dark, that's all flood-like, the first semblance of order that you get in our creation world is this spirit of G-d that's just hovering and blowing over the waters. So too here in Chapter 8 there is this wind of G-d, another Ruach Elokim, that's blowing over the waters. It's suggestive. Maybe it's for real. This is the fourth element - we talked about three elements; darkness, water everywhere, chaos, that seems to link these two, here's a fourth element; the wind of God.

Is this for real? Can this continue?

To recap, we have a world that is chaotic, dark, filled with water. Then in both stories we have the Ruach of God hovering over the waters. Let's go into day 2. This is kind of fun even though I already knew this. It is always good to back and relook at events.

Then God said, "Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." Genesis 1:6

So it's as if there's waters below the sky and waters above the sky. What is water's above the sky? Oh, the word for expanse is rakivah which means sky. A little harder to figure out but we have two sets of waters. An interesting thought is heaven in Hebrew is shamayim. Water in Hebrew is mayim, which I bolded in shamayim. There is this thought of water in heaven. So we have two sets of waters.

Genesis 8:2 - Also the sources of the deep and the windows of the skies were closed up, and the rain from the sky was held back.

Here is days 2 in the flood story. There is a separation of the waters just like day 2 in creation.

In creations on the 3rd day we have the division between land and water. As God is causing the flood to recede, so G-d causes the fountains of the deep to be stopped up - which is to say the well water - and the windows of the heaven - which is just a poetic way of saying clouds. God stopped up the windows of the heaven and the rain from the heaven was restrained. But if you think about that, what was God doing? God was taking the upper water and putting it back in water vapor, into the clouds, and the lower water and putting it down a well water, and now what would there be in between clouds after a storm and well water going back down? You'd sort of see sky one more time. It's kind of this sort of image. Your upper waters; clouds, water vapor, your lower waters; ocean, and over here sky in between. It's almost like now we have a vision of what this meant with the upper waters and the lower waters and the sky in between. That same image is now being re-created over here in Genesis Chapter 8, fascinating, in the world after the flood.

Genesis 1:9-10 - Then God said, "Let the water below the sky be gathered to one place. Let the dry ground appear." And it happened so. 10 God called the dry ground "land," and the collection of the water He called "seas." And God saw that it was good.

What happened next in the flood story? In verses 11-14 we have the appearance of vegetative life, the appearance of trees and land!

Three days in and I hope you are seeing the pattern.

I will come back to day 4.
Okay day 5. What happens on day 5? Living creatures are created. What happens next in the flood event? The dove goes out and doesn't return in verse 12. Now there are birds in the world...day 5.

What happens on day 6? Creation of man in the world. Look at what happens next in the flood event...v16 - "Come out of the ark, you and your wife, your sons and your sons' wives with you. We have humans on the earth.

Recap: remember we had the dark, chaotic water world, well after the flood we've also got this dark, chaotic water world with the floodwaters raging. In the creation story we had this spirit of God, the Ruach Elokim, the wind of God hovering over the waters; in the post-flood world we've also got - God makes this wind blow; Vaya'aver Elokim ruach al ha'aretz - there's this wind blowing over the waters in the post-flood world. We've got the sky dividing between the upper waters and lower waters, a strange kind of thing, it's almost like it's explained for us in the corresponding event that happens in the post-flood world, when one more time you have sky dividing between water vapor up above and lower water - inundated water world, the oceans down below.
Then you have the recession of the waters, the waters gathering into one place, dry land appearing in the creation story. Same thing happening in the post-flood story. Then you've got trees and vegetation appear on the earth in the Noah story, you have the dove bringing back the olive branch signifying to Noah that trees and vegetation are back on the earth. You have lights placed in heaven - we don't seem to have anything like that in the post-flood world. But the next event which is the appearance of bird life on the world, you have the dove of Noah entering the world and actually staying there after the dove brought back the olive branch. Finally, in Day 6, animals and human life appearing on the earth, and lo and behold, animals and humans leave the ark.

Six days out of 7? Not bad. I would like to have that batting average.

This leaves us with a question. If it is for real that the creation story is mirroring itself in the post-flood story, that we have clear intertextual connections between them, what does this mean?

During the flood what happened? What do floods do? They destroy. A flood of the proportion in the Bible would mean the world was destroyed. Perhaps what the Torah is telling us is that we should look at the story of the post-flood rebuilding as a re-creation event. Why? Why is God recreating the world? Most of us would say, the people were bad and God destroyed the people, not the world. Is that correct? Is that what God was intending to destroy? Maybe the world was bad as well?

Let's look. Chapter 6:11-12 - Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.

Look how many times the word earth appears in the story. Earth, earth, earth - the end of all flesh has come before Me for the earth is filled with violence. I will destroy them through the earth. One, two, three, four, five - five times over here in three verses everything that's mentioned has to do with the earth. The earth was filled with violence, the earth was corrupt, G-d looked and saw that the earth was terrible and the end of all flesh has come before Me. Why? Because the earth is filled with violence. It seems based on these verses at least the earth was primary and the people were secondary. The people ruined the earth, therefore the earth had to be rebuilt.

There is a lot more to those verses, but that is for another time....

It's the recipient - it's almost if you would think about in a physical sense, to give you an analogy, the idea of pollution, people can physically pollute the earth. It somehow, in some sort of I guess spiritual way, there was this sort of trickle-down corruption that eventually ruined the earth and made G-d decide you know, it's time to renovate. I had to rebuild the earth, get rid of the old one, destroy it - which has interesting ramifications for the meaning of the flood.

So if God needed to renovate the world, He would needed some place to keep the people until the renovation is complete. Hence the ark.

Let's go back a second to day 4. In creation, all the days events had to do with the earth, but day 4. Yes, the stars, moon, and sun relate to the earth, but not directly. If the earth is what needed to be recreated, there would be no need to recreate the stars, moon, and the sun. Just a thought as to why they are not in the post-flood recreation story.

Well that is all I got time for today. Come back next time for the rest of the story...

This development came from Rabbi David Foreman - just giving him credit.

Shabbat Shalom




agie95
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AG
Elijah didn't cause the sacrifice to occur. God did. Big difference.
kurt vonnegut
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agie95 said:

True, human beings are utterly sinful - they are greedy, prideful, unloving, etc.


. . . And Pretty damn sure of themselves when it comes to understanding God or what God wants.
tehmackdaddy
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~"we should maybe think about the verses this way"

Vs.

~"God clearly stated..."

... is exactly what you caution against me and others to do. That seems to flip now only when it suits your position. Hmmm.

What's the Hebrew word for "earth" and how does that line up versus "land"?
tehmackdaddy
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agie95 said:

Elijah didn't cause the sacrifice to occur. God did. Big difference.

So God says to sacrifice only in the temple except for when He states otherwise?

I agree.
agie95
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It is clear what is intended to be communicated here...a recreation. You can disagree all you want, but the language says differently.

You don't like it b/c I presented, period.
agie95
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tehmackdaddy said:

agie95 said:

Elijah didn't cause the sacrifice to occur. God did. Big difference.

So God says to sacrifice only in the temple except for when He states otherwise?

I agree.
That is not what I said.

God caused the offering to rise up. A burnt offering or said another way an elevation offering is one that rises up (that is what the Hebrew word means. Normally, in the Temple the fire is going and when the priests places the sacrifice on the alter it goes up. The priest caused it to happen by placing the meat on a fire.

Here, the meat was placed on the alter and God caused it to rise up.

PacifistAg
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AG
Never mind.
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