Truth

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agie95
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AG

Scripture says the Torah, the commandments and the sum of His word are truth (Psalm 119:142, 151, 160).

The Torah outlines the blessings for following God's commandments and curses for not following His commandments for those in covenant with Him.

So if the Torah does not need to be followed anymore, those verses are no longer truth. Those verses are no longer profitable for teaching, correcting, training in righteousness despite Paul telling Timothy that all of Scripture (only Scripture at that point is Torah/Prophets/Writings) is good for those things.

If this is your belief, then you have invalidated the majority of the Bible. God's words are no longer true, b/c there are no curses for not following God's word for those in covenant with Him.
PacifistAg
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Out of curiosity, who do you hold in higher esteem? Moses or Jesus?
FlyFish95
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I don't think invalidated is the right word to use there.
agie95
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Invalidate is to make something invalid or not true, not correct anymore.

The blessings and curses are not longer valid b/c the Torah is no longer to be followed based on Christian beliefs.

agie95
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Yeshua.

Yeshua said great are those who teach and follow the Torah.
PacifistAg
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Thanks. I too hold the One that fulfilled, and freed us from, the Law in higher esteem.
chuckd
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I love the Westminster Confession chapter on this subject,


29.5 The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]

29.6 Although true believers be not under the law, as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified, or condemned;[11] yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life informing them of the will of God, and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly;[12] discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts and lives;[13] so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin,[14] together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of His obedience.[15] It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin:[16] and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve; and what afflictions, in this life, they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law.[17] The promises of it, in like manner, show them God's approbation of obedience,and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof:[18] although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works.[19] So as, a man's doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourages to the one and deters from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law: and not under grace.[20]

29.7 Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it;[21] the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely, and cheerfully, which the will of God, revealed in the law, requires to be done.[22]
agie95
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You can't find a verse that states He freed anyone from Torah. His own words state otherwise.
PacifistAg
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agie95 said:

You can't find a verse that states He freed anyone from Torah. His own words state otherwise.
Well, I'd say Romans 7 covers this, but clearly you will disagree. That's fine, brother. We both love Jesus and seek to serve Him.
tehmackdaddy
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The first generations were not to eat meat, then after the flood humans were permitted to eat most types of meat.

Just because God may seem to change His mind doesn't mean He changes His mind.
agie95
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Knowing that Paul was an observant Jew throughout his entire life:

Chapter 7:

Romans 7:1-6 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives? 2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. 3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Paul is addressing those who know the Torah. If you don't know Torah he is not speaking to you, b/c you won't understand what he is talking about. At the end of the passage Paul says, "now that we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound." The question is to what we were bound or as said in other translations held captive, while we were in the flesh?

Chapter 6 has the answer.

6:6-10 - knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

We were bound by sin, by our old self, by our flesh (or in Jewish thought by our evil inclination). Now we have died to that which held us bound (7:6), a death to sin. Paul is carrying forward the same line of thought from chapter 6. His use of law refers to the power of Torah over the unregenerate heart to increase trespass and shows this via the analogy of a married woman that we have been released from that purpose of the Torah. Just as the woman is released from the provisions of the Torah regarding marriage, we have been released from this purpose of the law, which is death. The Torah no longer produces in us an increase in trespass.

A married woman whose husband dies, she is no longer required to follow the instructions regarding marriage. She is free in this regard. As it states in v4, we were made to die to the consequences of not following Torah through the Mashiach Yeshua, in order that we bear fruit for God. The debt of death was paid on our behalf (Colossians 2:14), therefore we are released from this death. Bearing fruit means following Torah which is good works or good deeds. That is love. Giving is love. Love in Hebrew is ahava. Hebrew is based on the consonants and the two letter base of this word is heh beit or hv which means to give. Love is giving. Which is how God can command us to love Him with all of our heart soul and strength and how 2 John 1:6 can tell us love is following the commandments.

Moving on Romans 7:7-13:

What shall we say then? Is the Torah sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the Torah. For I would not have known about coveting if the Torah had not said, "You shall not covet." 8 But sin, taking an opportunity, worked in me through the commandment all kinds of coveting. For apart from the Torah, sin is dead.
9 Once I was alive apart from the Torah; but when the commandment came, sin came to life 10 and I died. The commandment meant for life was found to cause death. 11 Sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12 So then, the Torah is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.
13 Therefore did that which is good become death to me? May it never be! Rather it was sin working death in methrough that which is goodso that sin might be shown to be sin, and that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.

The Torah reveals sin, it is not sin itself. Paul is using "I" here, many think he is alluding to Adam as he did in chapter 5:12-21. We are "in Adam," and are thus under the same consequence as he isbanishment from the garden. Once again, we see the focus is on the unregenerate state. Paul refers to sin as alive (9), deceiving and killing me (11). Yet we know from chapter 6 that, in Yeshua, sin is dead and we are no longer enslaved to it. Paul's point is this: the law ought to bring blessing, but for those in Adam, it brings death. But this is not so in the regenerate heart, when we are made alive in Yeshua. Sin no longer "seizes an opportunity through the commandment" to bring death; and "the very commandment that promised life" can actually bring blessing.

Paul understands that though we are identified with Yeshua, and therefore dead to sin, we do not yet have full realization of this. We still struggle with sin and the sinful nature. That is what the next section is all about (7:14-25). Our spirits are alive in Yeshua, but our flesh still frequently gives in to sin. Yet we have the assurance that one day we will fully experience our freedom from sin in Yeshua:

22-25 - For I delight in the Torah of God with respect to the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in my body parts, battling against the law of my mind and bringing me into bondage under the law of sin which is in my body parts. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to Godit is through Messiah Yeshua our Lord! So then, with my mind I myself serve the Torah of God; but with my flesh, I serve the law of sin.

Paul states that he delights in the law of God, in his inner being, in his spirit, yet he sees "another law" waging war against his mind (a parallel term for his inner being). Paul's use of the term law is not static. He uses it in many different ways. What is this other law? It is the law of sin which bounds him. It is the law of sin that enslaves. It is not Torah. It is anti-Torah, if you will. It is violating Torah. Paul has made it clear that those in the Messiah are no longer slaves to this law. So why then does he struggle with it here? Why is it at work in his members, even dwelling there? Isn't it dead?

As I mentioned earlier, we do not yet have the full realization of this identity yet. The law of sin still battles in us, in our flesh, though our spirits alive in the Messiah. The flesh still tries to increase our trespass. We must consider ourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Yeshua, and therefore, not let sin reign in our bodies, obeying it passions:

Therefore do not let sin rule in your mortal body so that you obey its desires. 13 And do not keep yielding your body parts to sin as tools of wickedness; but yield yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your body parts as tools of righteousness to God. Romans 6:12-13

After looking at the passage this way, it is clear what law we are released from in the marriage analogy, the law of sin and death. If, for whatever reason, it is not clear, Paul makes it even clearer in the next chapter. Remember there were no chapter breaks like we read it today. This was a continuous letter.


Romans 8:1-4 - Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Messiah Yeshua. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Messiah Yeshua has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what was impossible for the Torahsince it was weakened on account of the fleshGod has done. Sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as a sin offering, He condemned sin in the flesh 4 so that the requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Ruach.

We have an introduction of "the law of the Spirit of life," which is clearly set in contrast to "the law of sin and death." Paul has already discussed this law of sin and death in detail in chapters five through seven. The law of sin and death is the aspect of the Torah that increases sin to those who are "in the flesh," namely the unregenerate (those who are not identified in the Messiah). In contrast, those who are regenerate, who are in Messiah, are "under" the law of the Spirit of life. Is this a new set of principles, different from what God had previously revealed? Is it merely the "heart" of the law, which many say does not necessitate obedience to God's commands as long as we obey the general principle?

While this is generally what is taught in the Christian church at large, it simply does not follow from the argument Paul sets forth in Romans. Consider this:


[ol]
  • Paul explains that the old self was enslaved to sin (6:6). Because of this enslavement, when we encountered God's commands (the Torah), instead of these commands bringing about blessing, they increased our sinfulness, so that sin reigned in death (5:21). This is what Paul refers to as the law of sin and death. The commandments brought either blessing or curse depending on if you followed them or not (Deut 30)

  • Now, however, the old self has been crucified, the body of sin done away with, and we are no longer enslaved to sin (6:6). Sin no longer has dominion over us (6:9).

  • Since we are no longer enslaved to sin, it no longer has the power to cause sin to increase when we encounter God's commands.

  • [/ol]You see, God's commands did not change. Our hearts changed. Our ability to respond positively to the commandments changed. This is the "change" in this covenant.

    Ezekiel 36:26-27 - Moreover I will give you a new heart. I will put a new spirit within you. I will remove the stony heart from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Ruach within you. Then I will cause you to walk in My laws, so you will keep My rulings and do them.

    What causes a stony heart? Disobedience. Zechariah 7:11-12 - "But they refused to pay attention. They stubbornly turned their backs and stopped their ears from hearing. 12 Indeed, they made their hearts as hard as flint preventing them from hearing the Torah or the words that Adonai-Tzva'ot sent by His Ruach through the former prophets.

    Flint is a type of stone.

    We need to be freed, not from God's commands, but from our sinful nature, the body of sin, the law of sin and death. If it is still alive, then we are still enslaved. What we need is freedom from this law and that is what Paul is saying we have in the Messiah. We have been set free from the law of sin and death so we then can obey God's commands and receive His blessings. The body of sin is dead, not Torah.

    Said another way, there are two options to solve the problem of sin. 1) God either has to free us from all his commandments so that sin no opportunity to reign or 2) the flesh has to be put to death. Which of these two options does Paul say that God has done for those in Messiah?

    Yeshua condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Ruach (8:4). Remember Ezekiel 36:26-27 and also 11:19-20. They both speak about what the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) is to do....cause us to follow God's commandments. Walking in flesh is to sin, but walking in the Spirit is to follow God's commandments. That is what Paul speaks about next in 8:5-9:

    For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Ruach set their minds on the things of the Ruach. 6 For the mindset of the flesh is death, but the mindset of the Ruach is life and shalom. 7 For the mindset of the flesh is hostile toward God, for it does not submit itself to the Torah of Godfor it cannot. 8 So those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Ruachif indeed the Ruach Elohim dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Ruach of Messiah, he does not belong to Him.

    Those who live according to the flesh (to the law of sin and death) are hostile to God, do not submit to God's Torah, cannot submit to God's Torah, and cannot please God. Those who live according to the Spirit (to the law of the Spirit of life), in contrast, can do these things. We can obey his Torah. We can please him.

    This is similar to what John said in one of his letters - 1 John 2:3-6 - Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked.

    How did Yeshua walk? He followed the commandments.

    As Paul so clearly expresses at the end of chapter seven, right now our spirits are renewed, but our bodies are still dying, thus our internal struggle with God's Torah and the flesh. But one day we will receive life, not just in our spirits, but in our bodies. Paul continues discussing this future hope, our future glorification, throughout much of chapter 8 (see verses 17-30), and then stresses that nothing can separate us from the love of the Messiah, the assurance of our future hope (31-39).



    agie95
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    tehmackdaddy said:

    The first generations were not to eat meat, then after the flood humans were permitted to eat most types of meat.

    Just because God may seem to change His mind doesn't mean He changes His mind.
    Not true. Humans were not permitted to eat most types of meat. The word remez (every moving thing) is never used in the Bible to mean all meat.

    Second, different worlds require different rules. During the flood the days of creation happened again. After the flood it is a different world than it was prior to the flood.
    agie95
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    What is interesting is even though Paul is not saying what you think he is saying, he totally contradicts everything God says at Sinai, everything every prophet ever said, everything Yeshua said, but you want to believe what you think Paul, an observant Pharisical Jew, said about being released from the Torah.

    Reminds me something else Paul said....following the traditions of men.
    PacifistAg
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    Quote:

    Reminds me something else Paul said....following the traditions of men.
    Okay.
    DirtDiver
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    1. God's law is good as it identifies sin.
    2. God's law is good because it gives us a ton of information about the Holy Character of God.
    3. Following God's law is good for us (in their proper historical context) because it instructs us how to relate to God and others.
    4. God's law does Not make man righteous.
    5. All are guilty of breaking God's laws.
    6. Christ died on our behalf because of our sin, unfaithfulness, not following the laws, etc.
    7. If it was humanly possible to live a sin free life of perfect obedience to the law then Jesus would not have had to die.
    8. Once a person believes Jesus alone they should obey the teachings of Jesus however they will not do this perfectly on this side of eternity.
    9. If a person at one point in their life believes that Jesus died and rose again for them, and accepted this gift from God then they are saved completely, even if they are nailed to a wooden cross via a death penalty for their moral crimes without the ability to obey any commandments or laws.
    10. A believer's obedience/faithfulness equals different rewards in heaven and does not earn heaven itself.
    ramblin_ag02
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    This thread is a lot less philosophical than I expect from the title.

    Tanget question: Can truth change or are truths eternal? I can colloquially say that it is true that I am typing at a computer. However, there are many times today, in the past, and in the future where that statement is not true. Does that make me typing on my computer a transient fact or can something be a truth now and not later?
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    Martin Q. Blank
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    Really you can never say you are typing at a computer as it will have occurred in the past.
    ramblin_ag02
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    It's true as I'm typing the statement.
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    DirtDiver
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    Quote:

    Tanget question: Can truth change or are truths eternal?

    Truth can change.

    If Jesus said, "I am mortal" at age 25" he would have been telling the truth.
    If Jesus said, "I am immortal" post resurrection, he would have be telling the truth.

    If I said, "I'm age XX this year" and next year I say, "I'm XY" years old, then both of those would be different truth claims that are true given I wasn't lying.


    agie95
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    Totally different concept. Absolute truth never changes.
    agie95
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    Except, if you are not obedient then it shows that you truly didn't know Him.

    Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

    How did Yeshua walk? He followed Torah, so should you.
    ramblin_ag02
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    Could you give a specific example?
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    agie95
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    Absolute truth is a truth that is always valid.

    ex. There is a God.

    ramblin_ag02
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    So based on that and your first statement, are you saying that the Torah and all of its decrees are eternal truths?
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    Woody2006
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    I'm just glad it only took 1960-1970 years after Jesus's birth to figure out the real truth.

    Phew. Thanks Messianic Judaism.
    Sapper Redux
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    Woody2006 said:

    I'm just glad it only took 1960-1970 years after Jesus's birth to figure out the real truth.

    Phew. Thanks Messianic Judaism.


    Well it only took Protestants 1500 years to figure out the almost real truth. Truth matures like an impossibly fine wine.
    agie95
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    God is truth, therefore anything emanating from Him would be truth. That would include Torah, which is why King David said the Torah, the commandments were truth.
    DirtDiver
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    Quote:

    Except, if you are not obedient then it shows that you truly didn't know Him.

    Now we know that we have come to know Him by thisif we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God is truly made perfect. We know that we are in Him by this 6 whoever claims to abide in Him must walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

    How did Yeshua walk? He followed Torah, so should you.

    I would like to submit another way for you to look at the entire book of 1 John. When we read the word "know" in English in reference to 'knowing' someone we automatically think it's black and white, we know the person or we don't. In the context of 1st John, this is not the way it's referring to the work "know". It's referring to "know" as in deep intimacy. I may know the guy the's the best man in my wedding but I don't 'know' him like I do my wife.

    The purpose of this book is not a test on whether or not you can prove your salvation by obedience.
    The purpose of this book is not to tell a person how to have eternal life. That's what the book of John was all about.
    The purpose of 1st John is about how to have 'fellowship' with Jesus and fellow believers.
    The book of 1 John is written to believers. People who already know Jesus as savior but are being pushed to know him more intimately through obedience.
    PacifistAg
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    Quote:

    The book of 1 John is written to believers.
    The problem, and why this disconnect can't be bridged, is that agie believes that those who don't follow the OT rules aren't believers in the first place.
    ramblin_ag02
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    Quote:

    God is truth, therefore anything emanating from Him would be truth. That would include Torah, which is why King David said the Torah, the commandments were truth.

    Leviticus 17:8 "Say to them: 'Any Israelite or any foreigner residing among them who offers a burnt offering or sacrifice 9 and does not bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to sacrifice it to the Lord must be cut off from the people of Israel.

    Would you call this also an eternal truth?
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    kurt vonnegut
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    agie95 said:

    God is truth, therefore anything emanating from Him would be truth. That would include Torah, which is why King David said the Torah, the commandments were truth.

    Assuming this is true, human beings have proven exceedingly poorly equipped at interpreting this truth. Unless you can understand that truth without bias or subjectivity the utility of something like the Torah or the Bible seems potentially more harmful than helpful.
    agie95
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    I could agree if that was the context and also if the word wasn't used as to know something in general elsewhere. The Greek word is ginsk and means to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of, feel. It can also be an idiom to know someone intimately - as in sexual intercourse.

    I am pretty sure you are not intending to say we should know God in the manner of sexual intercourse. lol

    Per Thayer's Greek Lexicon ginsk is used in 1 John 2:3 as to become acquainted with, to know.

    Getting acquainted with is not exactly the knowing someone intimately that you are suggesting.

    Within the context, let's look at several verses before and see what info we can gather.

    Now this is the message we have heard from Him and announce to youthat God is light and in Him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we say we have fellowship with Him and keep walking in the darkness, we are lying and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another and the blood of His Son Yeshua purifies us from all sin. 1 John 1:5-7

    Light is not walking in sin, following Torah. Darkness is disobedience, not following Torah. If you walk in darkness you are lying and not practicing the truth. I have shown many times how truth is Torah (Psalm 119:142, 151). Walking in darkness is disobedience, which means you are not walking Torah. You walk in Torah one has fellowship with God and the blood of the Messiah covers your sins. If you continue in willful disobedience, then His blood does not cover you b/c you would be trying to crucify Him again.

    If we say we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.1 John 1:8-10

    His word is not in us? That ties us back to Jeremiah 31:32 which says "I will put My Torah within them.
    Yes, I will write it on their heart. I will be their God". If God's word, Torah, is not in you then you are not in covenant with Him. Not a good situation.

    Moving to chapter 2:

    My children, I am writing these things to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an Intercessor with the Fatherthe righteous Messiah Yeshua. 2 He is the atonement for our sins, and not only for our sins but also for the whole world. 1 John 2:1-2

    So you will not sin? What is sin? Defined in the next chapter verse 4 - Everyone practicing sin also practices lawlessnessindeed, sin is lawlessness.

    anomia - the condition of one without law - 1. either because you are ignorant of it or because of violating it. 2. contemptand violation of law, iniquity.

    Other uses of this word:

    Matthew 23:28 - In the same way, you appear righteous to men on the outside, but are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

    Matthew 24:12 - Because lawlessness will multiply, the love of many will grow cold.

    2 Thessalonians 2:3 - Let no one deceive you in any way, for the Day will not come unless the rebellion comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the one destined to be destroyed.

    This is all pretty clear to me. John is clearly speaking about not sinning. In a way you are correct though. It is about bringing us closer to God, to love God. You know how you do that? Do the commandments!!!

    And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the commandment, just as you have heard from the beginning, that you should walk in it. 2 John 1:6

    Right after John speaks about not sinning he says:

    By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

    I cannot accept your line of thinking. It goes against how the word is used and against the context of the passage.

    Torah is forever, everlasting, perpetual!







    agie95
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    AG
    Yes, remember the Mishkan is a shadow of what was above. Sacrifices are going on today in the tabernacle in heaven.

    C'mon!
    agie95
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    AG
    True, human beings are utterly sinful - they are greedy, prideful, unloving, etc.
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