The War Prayer

1,646 Views | 12 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Zobel
PacifistAg
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As we begin with what looks like the march towards yet another war, it's probably good to be reminded that our prayers for "victory" come with an unspoken prayer as well:

boboguitar
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Are we marching towards another war? What gives you that idea? Trump is just continuing what obama/bush did.
PacifistAg
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boboguitar said:

Are we marching towards another war? What gives you that idea? Trump is just continuing what obama/bush did.
You're right. More like ramping up our state of perpetual war.
boboguitar
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RetiredAg said:

boboguitar said:

Are we marching towards another war? What gives you that idea? Trump is just continuing what obama/bush did.
You're right. More like ramping up our state of perpetual war.
Has he? I'm legitimately asking. Any sources?

I know the news all of a sudden cares about us dropping bombs again. They took an 8 year nap on that one. But more news coverage doesn't mean it's being ramped up.

On the bright side, I haven't heard of any of the bombs trump has dropped has killed children. That was a pretty regular occurrence with obamas drone policy.
PacifistAg
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Quote:

On the bright side, I haven't heard of any of the bombs trump has dropped has killed children. That was a pretty regular occurrence with obamas drone policy.
Yes, I was vehemently opposed to Obama's murderous policies as well. And yes, it does appear that Trump's bombings have killed innocents/children. Those are just two incidents found from a quick search.

***edit - probably shouldn't have put the hyperlinks right next to each other. It appears to just be one link, but there are two.

boboguitar
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RetiredAg said:


Quote:

On the bright side, I haven't heard of any of the bombs trump has dropped has killed children. That was a pretty regular occurrence with obamas drone policy.
Yes, I was vehemently opposed to Obama's murderous policies as well. And yes, it does appear that Trump's bombings have killed innocents/children. Those are just two incidents found from a quick search.

***edit - probably shouldn't have put the hyperlinks right next to each other. It appears to just be one link, but there are two.


Syria did claim that but I can't find any proof of it.

Edit for your edit: Your first link I have no disagreements with.
PacifistAg
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But, whether or not we are actually ramping up for increased war, the point of Twain's War Prayer remains the same. Social media is flooded with cheers and "prayers" for victory. I see people calling for war w/ NK. The latest poll I saw showed about 20% support full military involvement in Syria, which would undoubtedly be accompanied w/ cheers and prayers for victory from pulpits across America. Those prayers, as pointed out in the War Prayer, carry a second, hidden prayer that God does hear.
boboguitar
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Unfortunately I'm at the point where I'm apathetic about it. It doesn't matter which R or D is in power, ongoing war is here to stay. There is no choice. I support L candidates in every election, especially the ones who are non-interventionists(different than isolationists) and I've been doing that since I was 18 and could vote (I'm turning 30 this month). I honestly just don't see the difference between the 2 parties when it comes to war and it's left me apathetic about it all.
PacifistAg
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I get that. I was a hardcore libertarian and non-interventionist prior to evolving towards voluntaryism. You are right. Not a dime's difference between the two bigs.

Also, before others jump in, I want to try to steer this away from the political angle and back towards the religious one brought up by Twain.
Furlock Bones
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I believe there are times where war is necessary. But over the last 2 years getting more involved in the church I can no longer cheer these things. Really sickening to read posters hope that our enemies suffer extra pain and torture.

That's absolutely the opposite of Christ's teachings.
Zobel
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That's one thing I love about the Orthodox Church. There is no just war theory as in the west. And while we do have soldier saints, bloodshed is not ever glorified. Even if you kill someone in defense there is a proscribed periodnof penance.
TexAgs91
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boboguitar said:

Are we marching towards another war? What gives you that idea? Trump is just continuing what obama/bush did.
The world is not entirely a nice place. HTH
booboo91
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TexAgs91 said:

boboguitar said:

Are we marching towards another war? What gives you that idea? Trump is just continuing what obama/bush did.
The world is not entirely a nice place. HTH
Agree with your post. The world is not a nice place, lots of sin. I posted about Hacksaw Ridge movie about pacifist, who interesting was saved by his fellow soldiers who killed to protect him.

What made Desmond Doss so awesome was his faith in the lord and his extreme love for others. I believe soliders, police officer who protect us/society can absolutely love as they are killing to protect the innocent.

To be clear War/violence should be avoided but at certain times it is not avoidable. "sometimes you have to fight when you are a man" Kenny Rogers or Ecclesiastes 3 1-8

There is an appointed time for everything, and a time for every affair under the heavens.
A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to uproot the plant.
A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to tear down, and a time to build.
A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance.
A time to scatter stones, and a time to gather them; a time to embrace, and a time to be far from embraces.
A time to seek, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away.
A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to be silent, and a time to speak.
A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Zobel
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Relating to my earlier comment, excerpts from an article (emphasis mine):

Quote:

Orthodox Christianity is not concerned fundamentally with morality as an end in itself. The vocation of humanity is for deification, participation in the eternal life of the Holy Trinity. Human beings are to become by grace all that God is by nature...

In this light, it is not hard to see why warfare, and any taking of human life, is fraught with spiritual peril. Death comes into the world as the result of sin. Christ has come to conquer death, to raise humanity to the eternal life for which humanity was created. To kill a human being is to do the work of death, to involve oneself in a paradigmatic act of spiritual brokenness and of estrangement from God and neighbor. Granted, some instances of killing may be tragically necessary, such as the actions of a soldier in defending his or her nation from invasion by a conquering power. Killing in such circumstances may be understood in light of the Orthodox category of "involuntary sin", which includes actions that damage the soul despite the fact that they are done without malice and out of necessity. The church knows that killing does not have to be murder for it to be spiritually damaging.

Repentance is understood therapeutically in Orthodoxy. The focus is not on paying a legal penalty for one's sins, but instead on finding healing by reorienting one's life towards God. The soldier who has killed in war needs repentance not because of breaking a law, but because taking life presents many profound challenges to spiritual health. It is obviously difficult to grow in holiness while killing people, regardless of the circumstances.

The prayers for peace before the Our Father in the Divine Liturgy provide a stark contrast to the practices and attitudes associated with physical violence. At this point in the service, the church prays that "the whole day may be perfect, holy, peaceful, and sinless" and that "we may complete the remaining time of our life in peace and repentance". A day during which one has killed others who bear the image of God is hardly perfect, holy, peaceful and sinless. Those engaged in or preparing for war will find it hard to complete the course of their lives in peace and repentance. Though particular instances of warfare may be necessary, and even legally and morally justified by certain standards, they fall well short of the vision of a holy life described in these prayers.
...
The canons of the church are applied pastorally to repair the damage done by sinful actions. Soldiers, police officers and others may at times have no choice but to use violence to defend the innocent from abuse. Their roles and responsibilities preclude them from a straightforward manifestation of Christ's nonresistant love for the enemy. They serve to protect the innocent from harm, and risk their own spiritual brokenness for the sake of others. Despite their "involuntary sin", it is still possible for them to advance toward theosis by using force in as limited and just a manner as possible, while doing what is possible to guard themselves against the damaging effects of the passions that are often aroused in situations of violence.


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