God Is Love. God Is Love.

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As we look at the great peaks of inspired biblical witness, none soar higher than the twin peaks of divine revelation given to us by the Apostle John.

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"But anyone who does not love does not know God, for God is love. We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them." (1 John 4:8, 16)

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Soaring above everything else the Bible has to say about God are these twin peaks found in John's first epistle: God is love. God is love.

The Arapaho Indians called Longs Peak and Mount Meeker Nestaieus, meaning "two guides." The two peaks of this towering massif are useful for orientation when traveling in the front range of the Colorado Rocky Mountains, just as the two peaks of 1 John 4:8 and 4:16 are invaluable when navigating our way through the Bible.

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More than a thousand years earlier, Moses reaches his apex of revelation when he hears and reports the voice of God from the burning bush saying, "I AM WHO I AM." But John leads us higher up the holy mountain when he reveals that God is love. These two guides on the holy mountain work together to lead us to the summit of divine revelation: God is who God isand God is love. If we ever reach the top and catch a glimpse from the GOD IS LOVE summit of the holy mountain, it changes the way we look at everything.

The view from the base of the mountain, or even halfway up, is simply not the same as from the summit. If we can follow John's lead to the summit of the holy mountain of scriptural revelation, we will see the whole Bible in a new light.

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God is not wrath. Though we may rightly understand and describe the consequences of divine consent to our own self-destructive will as the wrath of God, the truth remains that God is not wrath, God is love.

God is not a bloodthirsty deity requiring ritual killing. Though this may have been the only way we could understand God four millennia ago on the lower flanks of the holy mountain, the truth remains that God is not bloodthirsty, God is love.

God is not violence. Despite the fact that religion has a long history of sacralizing violence by projecting it on God, the truth remains that God is love.

God does not operate an eternal torture chamber. However we understand the state of a postmortem soul incapable of love, the truth remains that God is not a sadistic torturer inflicting eternal pain, God is love.

God is not a killer. Though many have misread the book of Revelation to such an extent that they think God's final solution for sin is the "Final Solution," the truth remains that God is not a genocidal killer, God is love.

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At this point I can hear my critics howl: "You're just making God the way you want God to be!" No. That's not what I'm doing. I was quite content to believe in and preach an angry, violent, retributive God. I did so for decades. I did it convincingly. I did it successfully. You can build a big church preaching such a God. Fear is a powerful motivator. Religious people generally like to be told that God is like that, as long as the divine disposition of anger is primarily directed toward other people.

The way I wanted God to be was the way I assumed God was: angry, violent, retributive. I knew how to use the Bible to preach God this way and I wasn't interested in changing my theology. If my motivation were to make God the way I wanted God to be, I would still be lifting passages from Sinners in the Hand of a Angry God to add rhetorical flourishes to my angry God sermons.

The change that occurred in my theology came about, not by wishing for God to be something other than I assumed God was, but from actually discovering God as revealed in Christ.

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I thank God that the theological tree that produced the bitter fruit of belief in an angry, violent, retributive God has at last been hewn down and cast into the fire. In my life the poisonous tree of angry-God theology is now gone. In its place grows the Tree of Life a tree whose leaves bring healing. (Revelation 22:2) It's a tree that looks like it once may have been an ugly cross, but is now beautiful and verdant, producing the fruit of eternal life. Planted by the Father himself, this tree is an everlasting reminder that I am a forgiven sinner now being healed in the hands of a loving God.

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So about that Old Testament...

Honestly, I don't know how you can believe that hell is a real place and not think everyone should be exposed to "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God".

Something that I struggled with when I was still a believer was how little time I or any of the Christians I knew spent trying to warn others of the horrors of hell. If it's really as bad as the Bible says it is, why are all the believers spending so much time worried about TPS reports and unimportant **** like that?

Woody2006 said:

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Honestly, I don't know how you can believe that hell is a real place and not think everyone should be exposed to "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God".

Something that I struggled with when I was still a believer was how little time I or any of the Christians I knew spent trying to warn others of the horrors of hell. If it's really as bad as the Bible says it is, why are all the believers spending so much time worried about TPS reports and unimportant **** like that?

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Well said, Woodrow.

Frok said:

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God is not wrath. Though we may rightly understand and describe the consequences of divine consent to our own self-destructive will as the wrath of God, the truth remains that God is not wrath, God is love.

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Disagree. You can't take God's love and ignore His wrath. Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

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Agree with both comments:

1) God is not surprised by anything, he knows all. So he does not change. He is consistent. He is not like an angry kid (easy to see this view with literal interpretation of OT). I think the 2nd definition of wrath is apprpriate (from Merriam Webster- see below). God is merely setting things right- Tough Love.

• strong vengeful anger
• retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement

2) That being said- Fear of the Lord- Awe is very real. Fear of the Lord is absolutely the beginning of wisdom.

3) I read all I can on Near Death Experiences (NDE) or visions of the saints. And bluntly put, there appears to be (2) sides of God- the wrathful (Hell) and the loving (Heaven). No- surprise just as bible says.

I used to focus on God's love (the carrot), that I neglected God's Judgment (the stick). Over and over we hear about the reality of Hell. It is scary. In these visions we must repent or face eternal torture- this is definitely a very big stick. Today I have a lot more Fear of the Lord (respect).

Excerpts on Hell- from book the fulfillment of all desire: a guidebook to God based on the Wisdom of the Saints by Ralph Martin

1) St. Caterine of Siena Visions:

The Father communicates to Catherine that Jesus is the only hope for the human race to escape destruction and that all those who know of the bridge must take it in order to be saved. The Father also tells Catherine that there really is a heaven and a hell, and that the consequences of rejecting the salvation offered in Jesus are horrifying. Human life is continually evaluated in the light of eternity. What we believe and how we behave in this life determine our eternal destinies.


But those who do not keep to this way [the bridge which is Christ] travel below through the river. . . . No one can cross through it without drowning. . . . Such as these are following a lie by going the way of falsehood. They are children of the devil, who is the father of lies (Jn. 8:44). And because they pass through the gate of falsehood they are eternally damned. Thus will those miserably come to their end who travel by the way beneath the bridge, through the river. They never turn back to admit their sins or to ask for my mercy, so they come to the gate of falsehood because they follow the teaching of the devil, who is the father of lies. And this devil is their gateway through which they come to eternal damnation.

The Father gave Catherine a vivid understanding of the reality of hell and the four principal torments that are suffered there. The first is that these souls are deprived of seeing me. This is so painful for them that if they could they would choose the sight of me along with the fire and excruciating torments, rather than freedom from their pains without seeing me. The second torment is ceaseless regret and agonizing about what has been lost. For when they see that their sinfulness has deprived them of me and of the company of the angels and made them worthy instead of seeing the demons and sharing their fellowship, conscience gnaws away at them constantly......

Just as theologians sometimes refer to the state of heavenly bliss as the "beatific vision," God the Father indicates to Catherine that the third torment of hell will be its opposite, the demonic vision of the source of evil itself, which intensifies all the torments. The Father indicates that the lost souls, in seeing the horrifying sight of the devil, come to know better what they have become through their unrepented sin. Just as in life all knowledge of the supernatural realities is significantly veiled, after death, the veil is removed; both evil and good are seen for what they really are. By turning to Christ we gradually become more like Him in His great beauty; by turning to sin and the devil we become more like him in his extreme horror and ugliness. What we have become through the beliefs and actions we have given ourselves to in this life is revealed with utter clarity after death. Their suffering is even worse because they see the devil as he really ismore horrible than the human heart can imagine.

The fourth torment is the ceaseless burning of an immaterial fire that has as many forms as the forms of the sins that were committed, and is more or less severe in proportion to their seriousness.9 For on their bodies will appear the mark of their evil deeds, with pain and excruciating torment. And when they hear with terror those words, "Depart, you cursed ones, into the everlasting fire!" (Mt. 25:41) soul and body will enter the company of the demons with no hope of return. They will be engulfed in all the filth of the earth, in as many different ways as their evil deeds were different. The misers will be plunged in the filth of avarice, engulfed at once in the burning fire and in the goods of the world that they loved inordinately. The violent will be engulfed in cruelty, the indecent in indecency and wretched lust, the unjust in their own injustice, the envious in envy, and those who were hateful and bitter toward their neighbors will be engulfed in hate. Their disordered love for themselves, out of which grew all their wickedness, will burn and torture them intolerably, for along with pride it is the head and source of all evil. So will they all be differently punished soul and body together.

2) St. Bernard of Clairvaux Bernard too spells out the consequences of rejecting the mercy of Christ and the awful finality of hell. Now is the time of mercy; but with death or the return of the Lord, the time of mercy, the time to freely respond to the offer of salvation in Jesus, will have come to an end.

Comments on Fear of the Lord.

This fear is not the fear of a tyrannical God who impetuously and arbitrarily inflicts punishment, but the proper respect, and fear, of a God who administers just punishment for those who deserve it. The biblical fear of the Lord is an intelligent fear, based on a deep perception of the holiness and majesty of God, which rightly recognizes the possibility of violating the law of God, despising His love, rejecting His mercy, and meriting eternal separation from Him. While the fear of the Lord is simply the beginning of wisdom, and the end of wisdom is love (1 Jn. 4:17), one doesn't jump into love without a deep and ongoing experience of biblical, Spirit-inspired fear. The Scripture tells us in fact that "blessed is the man who fears the LORD" and that, indeed, this God-given fear of the Lord frees us from other fears: "He is not afraid of evil news; his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord. His heart is steady, he will not be afraid" (Ps. 112:1,

The fear of the Lord is glory and exaltation, and gladness and a crown of rejoicing. The fear of the Lord delights the heart, and gives gladness and joy and long life. With him who fears the Lord it will go well at the end; on the day of his death he will be blessed. (Sir. 1:11)

Fear of the Lord is a gift of God; it is not opposed to love, but prepares for it. Fear of the Lord and love of the Lord go together. One of the reasons why there has been so much foolishness in the Church and in the world is because there has been so much lack of fear of the Lord.

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This fear is not the fear of a tyrannical God who impetuously and arbitrarily inflicts punishment, but the proper respect, and fear, of a God who administers just punishment for those who deserve it.

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This point has been brought up many times before and not well rebutted: there is no justice in eternal torture for temporal sins. Even if you argue Hitler deserves a million years of torture for every life lost because of him, that still does not touch or glimpse eternity. And in this case, we are talking about billions of people who have done things far, far less severe than someone like Hitler. So it's impossible for me to see how this a just decision on the part of God. It seems extremely arbitrary. Especially for one who could quite easily alter some circumstance and change a person's mind or beliefs.

The list you have from St. Catherine really reads like an exploration of Medieval and Early Modern philosophy in which everything has an antipode.

Dr. Watson said:

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This point has been brought up many times before and not well rebutted: there is no justice in eternal torture for temporal sins. Even if you argue Hitler deserves a million years of torture for every life lost because of him, that still does not touch or glimpse eternity. And in this case, we are talking about billions of people who have done things far, far less severe than someone like Hitler. So it's impossible for me to see how this a just decision on the part of God. It seems extremely arbitrary. Especially for one who could quite easily alter some circumstance and change a person's mind or beliefs.

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I can understand the comment about eternal torture for temporal sins, here are a few comments:

1) There is much we don't know about Heaven and Hell. How does an all knowing God judge us? Is Hell our choice? (like the story of the prodigal son- initially rejecting love of loving father )? How many people are in Hell? Note: my new opinion there are a lot more folks in Hell, than I used to think. This is based on the many accounts I have read about.

2) There is no time in Heaven and Hell. So this eliminates- Eternity. But I will conceded this is moot point- spending anytime in Hell is bad. Folks who have seen it, are literally utterly terrified it is horrific. It is torture. Note: I don't know why God would design torture other than it is great deterrent. Especially those who go out in murder/suicide style.

3) Catholic Teaching (in Bible) God gives everyone sufficient grace to enter Heaven, God grades on curve. God understand some folks are born into bad situations- broken homes (innocently ignorant). But Everyone has the Golden Rule written on their heart- we have a soul and a conscious

4) I think the bar is so low to get into Heaven, we just repent and humble ourselves (again see prodigal son).

5) Finally- you may not like it, but does not change the fact- there is a God, you will be judged on how you loved in this life (God is the potter and we are the clay). You already know how you should live- now go do it. Love and give yourself away.

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The list you have from St. Catherine really reads like an exploration of Medieval and Early Modern philosophy in which everything has an antipode.

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If you don't like her account there are hundreds of these accounts through out the centuries. Read Jesus words, read words of St. Don Bosco, St. Faustina. Or just go onto youtube. We see the same message over and over. Repent, change ways and the power of Jesus.


Ian McCormack- Atheist- Hell- Saved Saved through the intercession prayers of his mother on Earth. See how low the bar is set. See the saving power of the name of Jesus and pray and how much Jesus loves us.

Catholic Priest- Hell- intercession of Mary Saved through the intercession of Mary

What I find interesting in these NDE accounts and visions. Is there is no rebuttal or talking back to God (Jesus).

You just stand there and say yes- there are no excuses, because it is the Truth. An accurate account of your life. The all knowing God knows. He has authority we don't.

See 14:05 mark of priest talking about the Judgement: Priest on his judgement The priest understands he deserves Hell, and yet we see the mercy of God at work.

At end of day- does not matter how popular you are, it only matters the relationship between you and God ((Jesus).

Words, words, and more words.
When you start off saying that you now preach this way but used to preach that way, you have lost any credibility. All these words from people who have no more knowledge than anyone other person, of the truth, or lack thereof, of the matters talked about. All religions claim to be revealed truth, but no one can verify the truth of the claim.
Words, words, and more words.

fwheightsboy said:

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Words, words, and more words.
When you start off saying that you now preach this way but used to preach that way, you have lost any credibility. All these words from people who have no more knowledge than anyone other person, of the truth, or lack thereof, of the matters talked about. All religions claim to be revealed truth, but no one can verify the truth of the claim.
Words, words, and more words.

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1) Thus you are off the hook and you can do whatever you want. Except- you have a conscious (golden rule)- you know you are somehow called to Love. Not words but Truth.

2) Truth- There is a God/ Higher Power/Being- Vast majority of mankind agrees and realize this: Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu.

3) These folks do have more knowledge because of their personal encounter. Maybe they are lying, maybe they are mistaken or maybe they are telling the truth. What I find interesting is there message is consistent with others.

Fweightsboy Take it to the bank- Repent, Turn to the Lord and go Love. If you want to come to church with me and my family in West Houston you are welcome. Typically 9:30 mass.

Another video, same message:- Note: this should scare all of us- Hell. And yet bring us hope. God/ Jesus is so awesome, and do all they can to bring us to them.
1) The key to salvation (once in the afterlife) is calling on name of Jesus. Harken back to what you were taught when you were youg.
2) There is no time in Hell
3) Everyone agrees on the place they are at- think they deserve it. No one thinks they are a victim.
4) This life is preparation for the next life. We choose our destination. Heaven or Hell.

C.S. Lewis. Quote "There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, in the end, "Thy will be done." All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell.

Atheist Professor- NDE- Hell- Jesus saves there are several better videos on his experience.

Even though he was atheist he was fascinated by God. He says to ask Jesus into your heart. We know it sounds corny- but it works. Call on Jesus (meaning God Saves)

Go to mass? Maybe after telling us how to live our lives, the priest can go molest the alter boy. How about the Vicar of Christ on earth should send back the cardinal to Boston? Maybe he could go to confession. The RCC is one of the most corrupt organizations ever. I don't have to have faith that that statement is true, there are actual facts.
I know right from wrong. I do not need a sinister virgin, a rabbi, an evangelical money raiser, an imman,or any other such to tell me. Treat other people nicely. How hard is that to understand, and why do I need to be told every Sunday? Do you people forget that easily?

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How about the Vicar of Christ on earth should send back the cardinal to Boston?

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Cardinal Law has never been charged with any sort of crime. Maybe he should have but the civil authorities of the state of Massachusetts did not or have not done so. The accusation that he was spirited off to Rome in order to avoid prosecution is complete and utter BS.

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Treat other people nicely. How hard is that to understand, and why do I need to be told every Sunday? Do you people forget that easily?

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You might benefit from a refresher course, you seem perfectly willing besmirch all due to the actions of a few. You certainly have shown little to no civility when entering any discussions on this board.

fwheightsboy said:

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Go to mass? Maybe after telling us how to live our lives, the priest can go molest the alter boy. How about the Vicar of Christ on earth should send back the cardinal to Boston? Maybe he could go to confession. The RCC is one of the most corrupt organizations ever. I don't have to have faith that that statement is true, there are actual facts.
I know right from wrong. I do not need a sinister virgin, a rabbi, an evangelical money raiser, an imman,or any other such to tell me. Treat other people nicely. How hard is that to understand, and why do I need to be told every Sunday? Do you people forget that easily?

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1) RCC one of the most corrupt organizations is laughable, but I do agree there are sinners (bad people in church, , always has been- see Judas the apostle betrayed Jesus). But your relationship is not so much with RCC but with Jesus. Jesus (God saves) is who saves you.

2) You can't do it alone. You need God (Love) in your life. Just like the plants need light to live and grow , just like you need to exercise and eat right to stay in shape- praying and actively loving is the key. You also need community others to pray with and love.

I posted lots of videos- watch the Ian video. Shows you the love of Jesus (and Ian was like you- nonbeliever).

I was curious to see if anyone would catch the hypocrisy. Can religious people only see the hypocrisy in others?

As far as the RCC. the corruption is not laughable, but provable.

The Church supported Hitler.
The Church raised money thru indulgencies? How moral is that?
The Church let Ted Kennedy get an annulment. Huh?
The Church, thru the man who is now Pope Emeritus, actively hid and tried to hide the priest scandal.
The Church kept the Cardinal from Boston from being tried in America for his active role in the priest scandal.
How man boys and girls have been molested, and by how many priests, and for how long has this been known? Hideous actions by a group of sinister virgins giving the most loving of pastoral care.
And then there is Rwanda.
These are all recent history. Older history is even more replete with the corruption of the Church.

fwheightsboy said:

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I was curious to see if anyone would catch the hypocrisy. Can religious people only see the hypocrisy in others?

As far as the RCC. the corruption is not laughable, but provable.

The Church supported Hitler.- Comment- Overall Baloney- Hitler was in power 1933-45- Great historical insight today on church/pope working behind the scenes of a dictator and also Mussolini in Italy.
The Church raised money thru indulgencies? How moral is that? Comment: Nothing Wrong with Indulgencies- See explanation.
The Church let Ted Kennedy get an annulment. Huh?- Comment: Teddy did get an annulment
The Church, thru the man who is now Pope Emeritus (Pope benedict), actively hid and tried to hide the priest scandal. Comment- there were priests who molested children and some higher ups protected them or mishandled the situation better. Some of it was intentional (cover up) and some of it was out of ignorance. This went on for decades.
The Church kept the Cardinal from Boston from being tried in America for his active role in the priest scandal.
How man boys and girls have been molested, and by how many priests, and for how long has this been known? Hideous actions by a group of sinister virgins giving the most loving of pastoral care.
And then there is Rwanda. ?
These are all recent history. Older history is even more replete with the corruption of the Church.

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1) Truth about Hilter- RCC- Bishop Vs Nazis

2) Understanding Indulgencies:Myth about Indulgences

3) Do agree there have been and are some bad Catholics, and Christians (this has always been the case). Every Catholic will acknowledge there have been bad priests, bishops and popes over the past 2000 years. Today- there are 1.3 Billion Catholics and over 400K priests and absolutely some of them are bad. I don't know a Catholic that thinks they are perfect. Note: I provided a video of priest who Was going to Hell.

But even if the RCC is full of sinners, so what? We don't worship priests or fellow men, but rather Jesus. Jesus has not and will not let you down. Fwheightsboy- What are you going to do with Jesus?

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The Church kept the Cardinal from Boston from being tried in America for his active role in the priest scandal.

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A complete and utter lie as already stated above.

I do not have to do anything with Jesus. You do. Religion is your toy. You can play with your toy. I don't have to. I will be among the rest of the non Christian population of the world who do not have to do anything with him either. Or maybe I will split the moon in half, ride a winged horse to Kolob while wearing my magic underwear, and wait there to see who gets to be a god. Then there is Scientology and your friends at Westboro. Or maybe Robert Tilton or Joel whatshisname have all the true answers if you just give them some more money. There seems to be no end to nonsense people will believe. Remember limbo? All those centuries of telling parents their children were there. Not so fast there pope man. It does not really exist either. If we were to write the story of some peoples lives, we could call it "Gullible's Travels."

fwheightsboy said:

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I do not have to do anything with Jesus. You do. Religion is your toy. You can play with your toy. I don't have to. I will be among the rest of the non Christian population of the world who do not have to do anything with him either. Or maybe I will split the moon in half, ride a winged horse to Kolob while wearing my magic underwear, and wait there to see who gets to be a god. Then there is Scientology and your friends at Westboro. Or maybe Robert Tilton or Joel whatshisname have all the true answers if you just give them some more money. There seems to be no end to nonsense people will believe. Remember limbo? All those centuries of telling parents their children were there. Not so fast there pope man. It does not really exist either. If we were to write the story of some peoples lives, we could call it "Gullible's Travels."

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Well I Sincerely Hope it works out for you. If you happen to be on way to Hell- remember the power of the name- Jesus. You can sing song "Jesus loves me yes I know" Note: it was a simple pray in NDE video of atheist it enabled him to get out of Hell.
Jesus Loves Me- Song

Watch Atheist Professor NDE- that I posted earlier, he sounded much like you. He did not want to play with God, until he realized there was a God.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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If my motivation were to make God the way I wanted God to be, I would still be lifting passages from Sinners in the Hand of a Angry God to add rhetorical flourishes to my angry God sermons.

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One of my favorite sermons.

http://edwards.yale.edu/archive?path=aHR0cDovL2Vkd2FyZHMueWFsZS5lZHUvY2dpLWJpbi9uZXdwaGlsby9nZXRvYmplY3QucGw/Yy4yMTo0Ny53amVv

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Why am I not surprised that it's a personal favorite of yours?

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Because you know my love for truth.

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Sure. That's it.

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Treat other people nicely. How hard is that to understand, and why do I need to be told every Sunday? Do you people forget that easily?

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I don't go to church to be reminded of the difference between right and wrong. I go for the same reason I come to this board--in order to think and learn about the Creator who gave me an innate sense of right and wrong.

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I know right from wrong. I do not need a sinister virgin, a rabbi, an evangelical money raiser, an imman,or any other such to tell me.

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What do you believe allows you to differentiate right from wrong?

It cannot be based on your own self interest. Otherwise, any sort of crime would be "right" if you knew you wouldn't be punished.

It cannot be based on government regulations. After all, those are determined by a collection of politicians (which you probably agree is at least as corrupt as the RCC). And while laws change, the morality of the underlying conduct doesn't. The morality of drinking alcohol didn't fluctuate with the passage of the 18th and 21st Amendments.

It cannot be based on perceived societal benefit. Many societies have tried to justify atrocities that were supposed to result in an overall societal benefit. One example would be the Nazis' "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" and their involuntary euthanasia programs. Even if the Nazis prevailed in WWII, and even if they were somehow proven correct that those programs were a boon to their society (free labor at concentration camps, increased efficiency from homogeneous culture, elimination of handicapped and elderly people that no longer contribute as much as they consume, etc.), that wouldn't change the wrongness.

Do you think it is because of evolution? We developed a nearly universal conscience (along with countless other human complexities) by cosmic accident?

The Jews supposedly wandered thru the wilderness to come to the Mount and Moses went up and got the Ten Commandments. Did all that have to happen (and I do not really believe it happened) so people would know not to kill others, commit adultery, steal or lie? Really? And you have to go every weekend to be reminded?
If God created us all, why do some have a good sense of right and wrong and some are completely void of it?

fwheightsboy said:

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The Jews supposedly wandered thru the wilderness to come to the Mount and Moses went up and got the Ten Commandments. Did all that have to happen (and I do not really believe it happened) so people would know not to kill others, commit adultery, steal or lie? Really? And you have to go every weekend to be reminded?

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No, God could bless each of us with a conscience, giving us an innate sense of morality irrespective of whether we've heard/read/believed the Book of Exodus. It seems that you agree that something has caused at least most humans, including you, to have a sense of morality.

I already told you why I attend church, and it is not to be reminded of what is morally right and wrong.

But you never answered me regarding what you believe to be the source of your good sense of right and wrong. Will you kindly do so?

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If God created us all, why do some have a good sense of right and wrong and some are completely void of it?

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Have you ever, in a moment of bad judgment, inflamed passion, mental or emotional breakdown, or just poor self-restraint, done anything that most would consider objectively wrong?

Do you think all those that appear completely wicked have truly never done anything that most would consider virtuous? I doubt that there has ever been a completely wicked person than never did one kind thing. Even John Wayne Gacy was well known for his charitable work and volunteerism, perhaps trying to assuage his guilty conscience.

Neither you nor a serial killer is completely void of a conscience, but both are capable of suppressing or ignoring it, reacting without consulting it, rationalizing bad conduct (before or after the fact), or simply surrendering themselves to a depraved mind.

fwheightsboy said:

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The Jews supposedly wandered thru the wilderness to come to the Mount and Moses went up and got the Ten Commandments. Did all that have to happen (and I do not really believe it happened) so people would know not to kill others, commit adultery, steal or lie? Really? And you have to go every weekend to be reminded?
If God created us all, why do some have a good sense of right and wrong and some are completely void of it?

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1) I really like the motto of St. John Bosco (raised homeless men in Italy- roughly 1880s). "Make it Easy to Be Good and Difficult to Be Bad"

Going to church accomplishes many things, not only worship of God but a reminder of how we should live our life. The 10 commandments also serve that purpose- back 3000 years ago and when we see them today.Not going to church is like an out of shape person not going to the gym to exercise, rather they sit on the couch.

I am very confident that it is much more difficult to be "good" when you are looking at things that are bad: porn, watching TV that show lust for power, money and fame. Compared to something like the movie Hacksaw Ridge- where the man gives so unselfishly. Or the cheesy TV shows in the early 50s-60s - Brady Bunch, Leave it to Beaver, Casper the Friendly Ghost- had good moral messages of how we should live our life.

It is the reason folks who are in AA need to change their bad environment and find "good friend" who make it easy for them to behave and not relapse to their old ways

2) We have a soul/conscious. And this conscious can be well formed or turned off. In a nutshell- we can easily lie to ourselves over time. So you are what you take in. Read bible everyday- much easier to understand we are called to love and care for others. Fill yourself with crap media, Internet,TV- then the motto is get your unfair share, do whatever it takes- ME, ME, ME- It is all about ME.