Agie95,

Sorry for delay, was busy at work, then on Spring Break with family

I think many of the problems in our discussion is clarity. I think we need to define what we truly believe and where we have common ground, instead of talking past one another (note: I do a excellent job of talking past folks)

1) Would say we agree on the OT, our disconnect is the NT. What happened with Jesus, the Apostles and the Council of Jerusalem. 50AD. The authority of the Apostles and the church and the NT books.

2) Definition for Judiazer - is Christians who believe you must follow the law of Moses- all 613 laws. It is not earning your salvation through works. All Christians agree you do not earn your way into Heaven. But we are called to love others to be active in our faith.

Questions for Clarity Purposes:

1) Do the books in the NT carry the same weight as books in OT? Are the Gospels have the same authority as the Torah (first 5 books).

2) Does Jesus have authority? (To Clarify-Jesus from the NT, the Gospels). Greater authority than Moses and Elijah? Or was Jesus equal to them? Do you believe Jesus was God?

4) Do the apostles have authority?

1. The answers to these questions is very long. That is a book.

a. What happened with Yeshua? Why did He come? He came to testify to the truth - John 18:37. Scripture declares the truth is Torah, the commandments, the sum of God's word. (Psalm 119:142,151,160)

He came to save the lost and call sinners to repentence (Luke 19:10, Luke 5:32, 1 Timothy 1:13-15)

To destroy Satan's work (1 John 3:8) That you may have life (John 10:10)

To fulfill the Torah and the prophets (Matthew 5:17)


b. Council - This is a case of some Jews declaring one must be circumcised to be saved. The council reacted with their decree for those turning towards God. This same Greek word for turning epistrepho also is translated as converting. Turn from your idolatrous ways (those 4 things had to do with idolatry at that time) and the rest you will hear each Sabbath. They will hear the rest of the Torah each Sabbath.

2. Definition of judaizer - Your definition is the Catholic answer. Paul's definition would be those who were trying to do works for salvation. (Acts 15:1, Galatians 5:2-4)

You said Christians are called to love others. The problem is what is love. Love to God is following the commandments (2 John 1:6)

3. Do the Gospels and Epistles carry the same weight as the Tanach? Definitely not the Epistles. The Epistles are the apostles responses to certain situations some of which we don't exactly know what is the problem. We are uncertain of the authorship of some of them and we know there were other letters from Paul that we do not have.

Do the Gospels have the same authority as the Torah? Yes/No. The Gospels are not saying anything the Torah already said. God gave the Torah. Most of, if not all of the Torah was spoken directly to Moses and/or the people.

4. Does Yeshua have authority? Only what God gave Him. (John 5:19, 12:49) Yeshua is a manifestation of God. Yeshua is not fully God and fully man. For nothing can be 100% one thing and 100% another.

Yeshua has greater authority than anyone who has ever walked on earth.

5. Do the apostles have authority? This is a very open ended question. Authority to do what? Subtract from or add to the commandments? No. What ever Peter says to do? No. Do they have some authority as leaders in their day? Sure.

Quote:

---

1) Do the books in the NT carry the same weight as books in OT? Are the Gospels have the same authority as the Torah (first 5 books).

---

I'll chime in just because I think this is a simpler explanation. I've seen his facebook group discuss the epistles, but always deferring to the others (in the order provided). They'll interpret the epistles, gospels, and prophets by the Torah.

As I've heard his group's facebook page describe their perspective:

The Torah is the foundation
Prophets are the walls
Gospels are the roof.

...and the epistles are the landscaping. The epistles are useful for teaching and instruction, but his group doesn't consider them authoritative because of the instances where the writers interject their own opinion, some of the writers are disputed or unknown, and the fact that they are responses to situations that we know very little about.

Not this again.

Thanks for your answers. I can agree and appreciate much of what you have said, most of the disagreements that I have are minor. Except for the following:

1) I think our big disagreements are on the fullfillment of the OT. In my opinion, you seem to think that nothing can change, that Jesus can not make a new covenant. Everything must stay the same- thus we need to follow all 613 laws- including the ceremonial laws. It is all or none. When Christians acknowledge moral laws remain- thus early Christians would read the OT- it was there bible.

2) You ignore the proven historical evidence on outcome on the Council of Jerusalem. We see comments in NT, from early church fathers, from secular encyclopedia. "Judaizers is a term for Christians who insist that their co-religionists should follow the Law of Moses."

The Catholic point of view is the majority Christian point of view on this topic on the outcome on the council of Jerusalem. Don't need to follow the Ceremonial law- no circumcision. Need Faith in Jesus. You were once Baptist- you know this. And we see this in NT, from Apostles, from early church fathers, from Christian churches today- 2000 years later.

Quote:

---

a. What happened with Yeshua? Why did He come? He came to testify to the truth - John 18:37. Scripture declares the truth is Torah, the commandments, the sum of God's word. (Psalm 119:142,151,160)

He came to save the lost and call sinners to repentence (Luke 19:10, Luke 5:32, 1 Timothy 1:13-15)

To destroy Satan's work (1 John 3:8) That you may have life (John 10:10)

To fulfill the Torah and the prophets (Matthew 5:17)-

---

We agree, Jesus Fulfilled parts of the Torah- means to complete.

Quote:

---

b. Council - This is a case of some Jews declaring one must be circumcised to be saved. The council reacted with their decree for those turning towards God. This same Greek word for turning epistrepho also is translated as converting. Turn from your idolatrous ways (those 4 things had to do with idolatry at that time) and the rest you will hear each Sabbath. They will hear the rest of the Torah each Sabbath.

---

This is our sticking point- Gentiles had become Jewish before, so why change anything? Why did Apostles mandate the burden of circumcision be lifted? Also- No where does it say it is temporary (your claim).

We agree the bible of the very early church was the OT- this Torah contained the Moral Law. This is very logical because the new Testament is being written. Thus they would hear the Torah on Sabbath (eventuallly changed to the Lord's Day - Sunday). Today every Sunday Christians (Catholics) read the OT.

The Council of Jerusalem answered a specific question- no circumcision.- not needed-every! Baptism and Faith are required. We see this verified by the early church fathers. Way before Emperor Constantine.

Quote:

---

2. Definition of judaizer - Your definition is the Catholic answer. Paul's definition would be those who were trying to do works for salvation. (Acts 15:1, Galatians 5:2-4) - You said Christians are called to love others. The problem is what is love. Love to God is following the commandments (2 John 1:6)

---

1) Disagree- Need to keep reading Galations 5: 6 For in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love. This is what apostles said- you need Faith! Get Baptised and then be active in your faith with good works- loving others.

Paul was speaking/attacking about following the 613 laws not good works (caring for others- feed the hungry, clothe the naked). We see perfect example in Jesus parable of the Good Samaritan. The religious folks followed the law (613 laws), by not touching the unclean person in the ditch (but they failed to love their fellow man). Love is action, not whether you follow ceremonial laws- cut skin, eat unclean things, do not touch unclean things.

Paul tried to follow the law (613) to the letter and yet he was killing St. Stephen in book of Acts. And yet when he meets Jesus he is transformed.

At end of day- God does not care if we cut skin (circumcise) but rather we circumcise our heart to him.

Quote:

---

Do the Gospels have the same authority as the Torah? Yes/No. The Gospels are not saying anything the Torah already said. God gave the Torah. Most of, if not all of the Torah was spoken directly to Moses and/or the people.

---

Mostly agree primarily the same messages in Torah and Gospel, But we also have Jesus in Gospel- his words and actions. Greatest authority is in the Gospels. We see clarification, we see new covenant, we see fullfillment. We see how the story ends. "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end".- Revelation 22:13- words of Jesus

Quote:

---

4. Does Yeshua have authority? Only what God gave Him. (John 5:19, 12:49) Yeshua is a manifestation of God. Yeshua is not fully God and fully man. For nothing can be 100% one thing and 100% another.

---

Christians would say, yes Jesus came from father, and that Jesus is Not a creature created. Beginning of the Gospel of John makes this clear. Jesus (word) always existed.

Quote:

---

Yeshua has greater authority than anyone who has ever walked on earth.

---

Comment- thanks that is the answer I was looking for

Booboo - the problem here is that according to Agie95s perspective is that if Jesus actually "completed" the Torah (by removing the bulk of it), he could not possibly be the Messiah. There is a warning in Deuteronomy that says that if anyone comes along and performs signs and wonders and tells you not to follow the Torah than that person is not from God. I don't know the reference off hand, but I think it is in chapter 11 or 12.

Remember, this is from the same God who says in many ways that he is the same yesterday and today and does not change. It would seem odd that this God would say "here are the rules, don't listen to anyone who says don't follow it" and then 1000 years later send his son who says "I've changed my mind, don't follow these anymore!"

Remember, they look at from that Jewish perspective where the Torah is the foundation and everything else is built on top of that. They only interpret the newer stuff in light of what came before. I've found that simply reading the Torah and the OT gives me a much greater understanding of the Gospels and what Christ was speaking about. Otherwise, you're jumping into a movie that is halfway over trying to make sense of what is going on.

Before you jump to conclusions about me - I am not a member of his synagogue, I haven't attended it or listened to their sermons. I know what I know about their theology because I just happen to find their perspective very interesting and have attempted to understand it on its own terms. If you just ask Agie95 questions with the intent to understand, he's a good guy. When you pick at him (like protestants via catholics and vice versa), he gets defensive.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

---

Booboo - the problem here is that according to Agie95s perspective is that if Jesus actually "completed" the Torah (by removing the bulk of it), he could not possibly be the Messiah. There is a warning in Deuteronomy that says that if anyone comes along and performs signs and wonders and tells you not to follow the Torah than that person is not from God. I don't know the reference off hand, but I think it is in chapter 11 or 12.

Remember, this is from the same God who says in many ways that he is the same yesterday and today and does not change. It would seem odd that this God would say "here are the rules, don't listen to anyone who says don't follow it" and then 1000 years later send his son who says "I've changed my mind, don't follow these anymore!"

Remember, they look at from that Jewish perspective where the Torah is the foundation and everything else is built on top of that. They only interpret the newer stuff in light of what came before. I've found that simply reading the Torah and the OT gives me a much greater understanding of the Gospels and what Christ was speaking about. Otherwise, you're jumping into a movie that is halfway over trying to make sense of what is going on.

Before you jump to conclusions about me - I am not a member of his synagogue, I haven't attended it or listened to their sermons. I know what I know about their theology because I just happen to find their perspective very interesting and have attempted to understand it on its own terms. If you just ask Agie95 questions with the intent to understand, he's a good guy. When you pick at him (like protestants via catholics and vice versa), he gets defensive.

---

1) I appreciate the feedback because Agie95 belief confuses me. I like him, we have common ground on our love for the Old Testament.

2) What is his religion? Is there a website I can read, so I can better understand? what he sent me did not give me background and history. As I understand it, Agie95 new faith is not really Jewish and not really Christian and he used to be Baptist. So I am looking for more common ground besides OT so I can better relate and communicate with him.

3) In our last exchange (this thread)- Agie95 did say he considers Jesus has the highest authority (of a man). He does accept the NT- Gospels. He also recognizes Jesus fullfills (means to complete)

Logically from this he should be able to understand:

• Jesus comments about a new covenant. This would be a change from OT. Something new.
• Jesus proclaims himself as the new temple (another change). And as evidence we see no more temple - another change. Jews can no longer practice part of the 613 Mosaic ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple.- Another Change.
• We see more change at Council of Jerusalem- official welcoming of Gentiles, comments on unclean food, no more circumcision.

The entire NT is filled with change, because of Jesus! So I don't understand Agie95,how he can say he accepts the Gospels and Jesus and then demand nothing changed. Especially when documented history for the past 2000 years shows what happened.

Quote:

---

1) I appreciate the feedback because Agie95 belief confuses me. I like him, we have common ground on our love for the Old Testament.

---

He takes that love to a further level than we do: When you talk to him you need to remember that the Torah are the scriptures with the highest authority, followed by the prophets/gospels, and then the epistles. Christians generally consider all of scripture to be equal to one another.

Quote:

---

2) What is his religion? Is there a website I can read, so I can better understand? what he sent me did not give me background and history. As I understand it, Agie95 new faith is not really Jewish and not really Christian and he used to be Baptist. So I am looking for more common ground besides OT so I can better relate and communicate with him.

---

I think his site is http://www.mysarshalom.com/. It is basically orthodox Judaism with the belief that Jesus is the messiah. There is also a Facebook group that Agie95 let me join last summer comprised primarily of members of that synagogue as well as likeminded people from around the country where they share thoughts, prayers, testimonies as well as discussions, lessons, etc. Ask Agie95 about it if you want to join, just beware that they have pretty strict rules for participation. Asking questions for understanding is fine, but asking questions to pick apart and to debate is not.

As to how exactly that organization got started, I can't say. I do know that there have been people within the Orthodox Jewish community throughout history who have privately believed in Jesus, but they were quiet about it for the obvious reasons.

Quote:

---

3) In our last exchange (this thread)- Agie95 did say he considers Jesus has the highest authority (of a man). He does accept the NT- Gospels. He also recognizes Jesus fulfills (means to complete)

Logically from this he should be able to understand:

• Jesus comments about a new covenant. This would be a change from OT. Something new.
• Jesus proclaims himself as the new temple (another change). And as evidence we see no more temple - another change. Jews can no longer practice part of the 613 Mosaic ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple.- Another Change.
• We see more change at Council of Jerusalem- official welcoming of Gentiles, comments on unclean food, no more circumcision.

The entire NT is filled with change, because of Jesus! So I don't understand Agie95,how he can say he accepts the Gospels and Jesus and then demand nothing changed. Especially when documented history for the past 2000 years shows what happened.

---

You have to look back to move forward. Remember, (1) Torah is prime followed by (2) Prophets/Gospels, (3) then the epistles. Since the Torah is the most important, then everything that follows after it must support it. If Christ is the word of God and taught against the Torah, then he could not have been the Messiah because he would be violating that warning in Deuteronomy.

I cannot speak for the veracity of this but according to Agie95 or his Facebook group that eons past, when a young Jew was being taught the Torah and how to interpret he would be told by the Rabbi teaching him "You have abolished the Torah" when he incorrectly interpreted it and when he correctly interpreted it and applied it "You have fulfilled the Torah". So in light of that, when Agie95 says that Jesus came to "fulfill" the Torah, he was correctly interpreting and teaching people how to apply it.

This isn't something that I am too familiar with so I may be wrong, but if you solely look to the OT prophecies regarding the Messiah Jesus did not come to abolish the old and to make a new covenant - he came to renew the covenant with Israel and Judah. Jesus himself said he came for the lost sheep of Israel and was only moved to help gentiles when they moved or persuaded him - Look to the Centurions son or the Canaanite woman.

Quote:

---

• Jesus proclaims himself as the new temple (another change). And as evidence we see no more temple - another change. Jews can no longer practice part of the 613 Mosaic ceremonial laws pertaining to the temple.- Another Change.

---

For arguments sake, when Solomon's Temple was destroyed did that undo the rest of the commands? Shellfish, tassels, etc? They couldn't make sacrifices but they could perform the rest.

Quote:

---

• We see more change at Council of Jerusalem- official welcoming of Gentiles, comments on unclean food, no more circumcision.

---

I think Agie95 makes an interesting case (there should be a thread on the first or second page) regarding the intent of the council of Jerusalem that those things (fornication, food sacrificed to idols, etc) was a starting point so that they could enter the synagogue and learn the rest.

When you look at the passage in Acts regarding unclean food from the Jewish perspective "Unclean animals" or "beasts of the field" was often a metaphor for the Gentiles or Pagans. Whenever a prophet warned that unless the people would repent they would be consumed by wild beasts, he wasn't talking about bears. He was talking about the Philistines, Persians, Arabs, Romans etc that were around them. If you read acts, after Peter saw the vision of the animals on a blanket Peter was taken to a Gentiles house (A Centurion). Immediately following Peters preaching and teaching, the gentiles in the home were filled with the spirit much to the astonishment of the Jews present.

Quote:

---

The entire NT is filled with change, because of Jesus! So I don't understand Agie95,how he can say he accepts the Gospels and Jesus and then demand nothing changed. Especially when documented history for the past 2000 years shows what happened.

---

Once more, you have to look back to move forward:

"13 "If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, 2 and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, 'Let us go after other gods'which you have not known'and let us serve them,' 3 you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 You shall walk after the Lord your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice; you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him."


According to his perspective, If Jesus told people to not follow the commandments, he could not have been the messiah. If Peter, Paul, the apostles taught against it, then they were not from God.

And none of it means a dang thing if Christ Jesus is not God.

Cool addition to the discussion, bro.

I'm not trying to debate his belief, I'm just explaining what he believes and why.

booboo91 said:

---

Thanks for your answers. I can agree and appreciate much of what you have said, most of the disagreements that I have are minor. Except for the following:

1) I think our big disagreements are on the fullfillment of the OT. In my opinion, you seem to think that nothing can change, that Jesus can not make a new covenant. Everything must stay the same- thus we need to follow all 613 laws- including the ceremonial laws. It is all or none. When Christians acknowledge moral laws remain- thus early Christians would read the OT- it was there bible.

2) You ignore the proven historical evidence on outcome on the Council of Jerusalem. We see comments in NT, from early church fathers, from secular encyclopedia. "Judaizers is a term for Christians who insist that their co-religionists should follow the Law of Moses."

The Catholic point of view is the majority Christian point of view on this topic on the outcome on the council of Jerusalem. Don't need to follow the Ceremonial law- no circumcision. Need Faith in Jesus. You were once Baptist- you know this. And we see this in NT, from Apostles, from early church fathers, from Christian churches today- 2000 years later.

---

I never said that Yeshua cannot make a "new" covenant, for Scripture clearly states there is one. Jeremiah 31:31-34 gives us the most detail about this covenant. This covenant is between the House of Israel and Judah and God. The covenant states the Torah is going to be placed in people and written on their hearts. Not a new Torah, but God says torati - My Torah. The one thing I will say is the covenant is not complete yet. Jeremiah states in v34 - "They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD... As far as I know, people are still having to be taught, therefore this covenant is not complete.

You seem to believe a covenant replaces another. Yet, not one other time in Scripture does a covenant ever replace another one. Today we are used to agreements, contracts, etc being broken, but that is not the case during those days. Covenants are agreed to forever or its death. Let's think of all the major covenants (there are more than these, but these are the major ones) and where anyone of them replaces another based on actual Scripture....not your beliefs:

Covenant's with Adam - Genesis 2:2-3, 15-17, 3:15
Noah's Covenant - Genesis 9
Covenant with Abraham - Genesis 12
Covenant at Sinai - Exodus 19-24
Covenant with David - 2 Samuel 7
Jeremiah's Covenant "New Covenant" - Jeremiah 31

Each of these covenants build on one another. They do not take away or replace.

While the covenant at Sinai added new revelations of God to the Abrahamic covenant, such only intended to clarify the plan of salvation. The history of salvation demonstrates progressive revelation, an unfolding of a
larger plan of redemption. God's covenants can therefore be understood as being one in essence, because God is the same gracious God yesterday, today, and forever.

While Jeremiah 31 is referenced as the first place this "new" covenant is spoken, it in reality he is not the only prophet who did so. Ezekiel, who was a contemporary of Jeremiah, also spoke of this covenant. Ezekiel writes:

22 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus says the Lord God, "It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23 I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the Lord," declares the Lord God, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24 For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25 Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28 You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God. 29 Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30 I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31 Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32 I am not doing this for your sake," declares the Lord God, "let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!" Ezekiel 36:22-32

From here one can see what God is actually putting in a believer - the Holy Spirit. What will the Spirit cause one to do? I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

Ezekiel 37 continues explaining:

21 Say to them, 'Thus says the Lord God, "Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king will be king for all of them; and they will no longer be two nations and no longer be divided into two kingdoms. 23 They will no longer defile themselves with their idols, or with their detestable things, or with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. And they will be My people, and I will be their God.

24 "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons' sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever."'"

This is still yet to happen. For since the split they have not come together. The Messiah will be king over them, they will have one shepherd, and they will waking in God's ordinances and keep His statutes and observe them. They will live in Israel and the Messiah will be their prince forever. He will place His sanctuary in their midst.....the Third Temple built not with human hands.


You are right in that I ignore proven historical evidence of the church who teaches men not to follow God's ways. Any word can have whatever meaning you want to attach to it. Paul, who considered himself a Pharisee during his ministry, followed Torah and taught to follow Torah. You are mistaken about the council. All other Scripture shows God's ways (Torah) is to be followed. The problem is you take Paul and his Epistles over the Messiah's own words:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

Do these sound like the words of a Man who knew that the Torah was about to be abolished? If we take
the Messiah's words literally, we believe it is safe to say that He cautioned His followers to not think
that He had come to destroy the Torah. Yet it is this very thingthe destruction, eradication and elimination of
the Torah-that many of today's religious leaders teach their members to believe.

As far as I know, heaven and earth are still here. You read fulfill as to end. What is interesting is you are effectively saying the Messiah said: "I didn't come to abolish the Torah and the Prophets but to end." While I say it means to correctly interpret, which is was He does right after this statement. You have heard it said, but... You teach that we shouldn't do the commandments and the Messiah said whoever annuls one of the least of the commandments and teaches others to do the same shall be called least in the kingdom.

Who should I follow? The church, who does the opposite of what God said or Scripture, which says to do what God said. The Messiah says to do the commandments and this person will be greatest.

Despite not one prophecy saying the Torah was to be "fulfilled" as you understand it (for all prophecy are declared through the prophets - Amos 3:7), despite the Messiah Himself saying to do the commandment, despite Paul while read in context says to follow Torah, and despite all other evidence you want to follow the church - men's traditions. Ezekiel is clear on what the Spirit's role is and this is to follow God's ways.

You want to say that all there is today is moral laws, but the 4 things given in Acts 15 are not moral, they are ceremonial. James also for they will here Moses every Sabbath, yet the church changed that as well. One, you don't read Moses each Sabbath and two, you don't meet on the Sabbath.

One last thing, if all a Christian has today is moral laws, how does this separate you from any other religion or any person deemed "good" by society?

I welcome anyone to join the group on Facebook - Let's Talk Torah. Overall Solo tetherball Champ knows our position. The group does allow debate, the debate has to be respectful and without anti-semitism. Maybe a few of you would benefit to see our perspective from a different person rather than me.

Matthew 5:17 - Fulfill - Thayer's Greek Lexicon -

Universally and absolutely, to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it
should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfillment: Mt. v. 17; cf.Weiss, Das Matthusevang. u.s.w. p.146 sq.

If Yeshua fulfilled the Torah, then why does the moral aspects of the Torah still need to be followed? Fulfilled is fulfilled and you no longer need to do it.

agie95 said:

---

If Yeshua fulfilled the Torah, then why does the moral aspects of the Torah still need to be followed? Fulfilled is fulfilled and you no longer need to do it.

---

Because we look at the Torah through lense of Jesus. Thus we start with his comments. Love God and Love Neighbor (Law of Love) which encompasses all off the Torah. (10) Comandments further break down of the law of love. (613) laws- these contain, moral, civil and ceremonial laws. Common sense- some of the 613 laws are not practical today- 3000 years ago they made sense, today they do not."To make a parapet for your roof" But the moral laws always appy.- dont lie, steal, murder.

Logically if the 613 laws were so so important, they would ALL be around, but they are not. Why do we no longer have to pray at temple (been nearly 2000 years), no more slaves "Not to sell a Hebrew maid-servant to another person" , we no longer stone animals or people "Not to eat the flesh of an ox that was condemned to be stoned" and there are many more examples.

Note: I can appreciate the OT and why things were done 3000 years ago, but to require us to follow all the ceremonial and civil laws from 3000 years ago is just silly. If you want to do it, go ahead but it is not required. For Christians- Faith, Baptism and then active Love of God and others.

Agie95,

Curious, So how did you go from Baptist to basically Jewish? What was the compelling event? Were you active in your Baptist faith?

More on following all of the Torah Question:

1) Question- why did Moses only come down the mountain with 10 commandments- moral laws? If it was so so important that we follow ALL 613 laws? Why did these 613 laws have to wait and be written down much later? If your point is ALL the Torah or NO Torah! why do we not see All of it at once?

Generally accepted the entire 613 laws (entire Mosaic Law) was given only after the golden calf and after the failure to trust God and enter into the promise land. The 613 laws were developed as the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years. Analogy is the 613 laws can be viewed as tighter rules, like parents putting tighter rules on a teenager who does not listen and do the wrong thing. Tighter rules are given to keep them on the right track.

2) Christians do not get hung up on the ceremonial laws, due to the outcome of the Council of Jerusalem- 50AD but also because of Jesus our role model. Jesus does not mention ceremonial laws in his examples- he mentions the moral laws, the laws of love (feed the hungry, clothe the naked). In parable of Good Samaritan Jesus shows us how the law of love trumps the ceremonial law of touching an unclean person.

Agie95,

I will answer more of your comments on Covenant later, off to Salt Lake City for business trip.

I think our common ground will have to remain at our mutual love for OT. I stand by my words- you miss how the story ends, you don't understand Jesus and thus the NT. Our conversations about the NT and church history (example outcome at the council of Jerusalem) will go no where.

This is the closest I can get to drawing a parallel to the idea that Jesus did away with the Law.

Imagine someone was alive right now. They started a ministry and claimed you had to go around hating sinners and purging them in order to gain God's favor. Sort of like Westboro on steroids. Then their leader does something truly supernatural and this is well documented. He claims to be Jesus returned and says prayer, charity, love, and forgiveness are no longer needed. Only purging of sinners violently.

All the arguments for Jesus nullifying the Torah can be used in the same way by this new hypothetical person. After all, He claims to be God and therefore he can change whatever he wants. You could even say nonsense like the "era of grace is over" and we're back to early OT violence from God again.

Good Christians would know better, because that person is not acting like Jesus. Same with the Torah. If Jesus nullified the Torah, then he is not acting like the Messiah. Good Jews would know better same as good Christians in the above example.

booboo91 said:

---

More on following all of the Torah Question:

1) Question- why did Moses only come down the mountain with 10 commandments- moral laws? If it was so so important that we follow ALL 613 laws? Why did these 613 laws have to wait and be written down much later? If your point is ALL the Torah or NO Torah! why do we not see All of it at once?

Generally accepted the entire 613 laws (entire Mosaic Law) was given only after the golden calf and after the failure to trust God and enter into the promise land. The 613 laws were developed as the Jews wandered in the desert for 40 years. Analogy is the 613 laws can be viewed as tighter rules, like parents putting tighter rules on a teenager who does not listen and do the wrong thing. Tighter rules are given to keep them on the right track.

2) Christians do not get hung up on the ceremonial laws, due to the outcome of the Council of Jerusalem- 50AD but also because of Jesus our role model. Jesus does not mention ceremonial laws in his examples- he mentions the moral laws, the laws of love (feed the hungry, clothe the naked). In parable of Good Samaritan Jesus shows us how the law of love trumps the ceremonial law of touching an unclean person.

---

1. Are all of the 10 commandments moral laws? Is coveting immoral? When did the Sabbath become moral? Or how about not using God's name in vain? Or not having any other gods before Him (meaning any other gods period)?

None of those sound like they deal with human behavior that affect others i.e. moral issues.

It is not generally accepted the entire 613 was given only after the golden calf. In fact, that is quite wrong. While I have more info that you want to hear and I am willing to retype on the entire Torah existing prior Sinai, I will try and separate what is clearly existing prior to the golden calf.

In the link you will notice that over 100 of the commandments come before the golden calf incident. Note that Leviticus is more details as to the tabernacle. The tabernacle and the servicing of it was given prior to the golden calf. Note the last sentence of Leviticus - "These are the mitzvot which Adonai commanded Moses for Bnei-Yisrael on Mount Sinai."

613

The Israelites were at Sinai for approx. 2 years. therefore Leviticus definitely was not given as they traveled in the wilderness. Numbers 1-13 was all at Mt Sinai as well. This is fairly common knowledge among those who have studied the timelines. Within Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, and Numbers 1-13 there are 384 commandments, that is over half. When looking through the rest many of the commandments were already given in one form or another. For instance, Deuteronomy 6:5 - You shall love your God with all of your heart, soul and strength. Another one, you shall not eat flesh cut from a living animal. Guess where that was given? To Noah. I am not sure why this list does not give credit back to that time period, but nonetheless, that was before Abraham.

Really this is a wild goose chase though. You believe that church history cannot be wrong. You believe in the authority of the Catholic church. Period! Despite what Scripture says.

For instance, you state Yeshua does not mention ceremonial laws, yet He stated in Matthew 5:19 that anyone who annuls or teaches to annul even the least of the commandments (that means all of them) is least in the Kingdom. Whomever does and teaches them is greatest. Those are the Messiah's words. I don't know what further clarification to all of the commandments you need.

He also says "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter." What is God's will? God gave us the Torah, that is His will.

How did Yeshua finish that quote - Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

Lawlessness is anomia and is one with the Mosaic law.

Man cannot change God's word. Yet, even if the council declared all of His Torah invalid, which they didn't, you cannot listen to it. In general, the church believes man's teachings over God's.

As to the ten, why the ten? They are a testimony to all that transpired. They are not "special" in that that is all there is. Not included in the ten is to love God and love your neighbor. In Exodus 25:16 (before the calf) God says - You shall put into the ark the testimony which I shall give you.

The Hebrew word is edut and is testimony. The root of this word is ed and means - a witness, testimony, an evidence of things. That is what the ten words (not commandments in the Hebrew) represent. They are a testimony of Mt. Sinai.

You say that only moral laws right? Why then does the council give other laws that are not necessarily moral in nature? That doesn't make sense.

Lawlessness is anomia and is one with the Mosaic law.

That's a presumption.

Quote:

---

Are all of the 10 commandments moral laws? Is coveting immoral? When did the Sabbath become moral? Or how about not using God's name in vain? Or not having any other gods before Him (meaning any other gods period)?

None of those sound like they deal with human behavior that affect others i.e. moral issues.

It is not generally accepted the entire 613 was given only after the golden calf. In fact, that is quite wrong. While I have more info that you want to hear and I am willing to retype on the entire Torah existing prior Sinai, I will try and separate what is clearly existing prior to the golden calf.

---

Agie95,

Yes absolutely the 10 commandments are moral laws. They can very easily be broken down into Love God and Love Neighbor. Moral- is defined as concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior. Loving God is right behavior.

Yes coveting is immoral. Note: Nothing wrong with wanting to do our best. Jesus words- whenever you look at woman lustfully.

Keeping Holy Sabbath (Lord's Day) is worshiping God & Rest. Back in the day there was a reason the Christians had Blue laws all over the south (in my opinion very sad to see them go). Christians today are very lax on how it is mandatory of going to church, rest and family time.

I will respond later and also see your link on the 100 laws given before the golden calf.

Quote:

---

It is not generally accepted the entire 613 was given only after the golden calf. In fact, that is quite wrong. While I have more info that you want to hear and I am willing to retype on the entire Torah existing prior Sinai, I will try and separate what is clearly existing prior to the golden calf.

---

I stand corrected, your right some of the 613 laws were before Moses officially wrote them down (or oral tradition) example: laws given to Adam (marriage), Abraham (circumcision).

Moses developed and wrote down some of the 613 laws after the 10 commandments, golden calf, as they wandered for 40 years. Also agree there was some preparation before they tried to enter holy land for the first time (2) years- may be correct? I don't have exact timeline here.

k2aggie07 said:

---

Lawlessness is anomia and is one with the Mosaic law.

That's a presumption.

---

It is not a presumption.

1 John 3:4 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

Sin is breaking Torah. This is the consistent message throughout Scripture. Per the BLB, destitute of the Mosaic Law is the exact definition (Strong's) of the root word of anomia.


BLB

booboo91 said:

---

Quote:

---

Are all of the 10 commandments moral laws? Is coveting immoral? When did the Sabbath become moral? Or how about not using God's name in vain? Or not having any other gods before Him (meaning any other gods period)?

None of those sound like they deal with human behavior that affect others i.e. moral issues.

It is not generally accepted the entire 613 was given only after the golden calf. In fact, that is quite wrong. While I have more info that you want to hear and I am willing to retype on the entire Torah existing prior Sinai, I will try and separate what is clearly existing prior to the golden calf.

---

Agie95,

Yes absolutely the 10 commandments are moral laws. They can very easily be broken down into Love God and Love Neighbor. Moral- is defined as concerned with the principles of right and wrong behavior. Loving God is right behavior.

Yes coveting is immoral. Note: Nothing wrong with wanting to do our best. Jesus words- whenever you look at woman lustfully.

Keeping Holy Sabbath (Lord's Day) is worshiping God & Rest. Back in the day there was a reason the Christians had Blue laws all over the south (in my opinion very sad to see them go). Christians today are very lax on how it is mandatory of going to church, rest and family time.

I will respond later and also see your link on the 100 laws given before the golden calf.

---

We have a problem. All the commandments, 100% of them, all have to do with loving God and loving our neighbor.

You can't change the Sabbath. Sunday being the Lord's day is man's teaching, not from Scripture.

agie95 said:

---

booboo91 said:

---

We have a problem. All the commandments, 100% of them, all have to do with loving God and loving our neighbor.

---

You can't change the Sabbath. Sunday being the Lord's day is man's teaching, not from Scripture.

---

1) The 613 laws had a practical application 3000 years ago for a nation struggling for survival, but many do not apply, today - they are obsolete- From Your list: working backwards Agie95 613 list

-611-113- We see today a lot of Jews capturing woman in battle and taking them as slaves (sarcasm)
-598- Wipe out the descendants of Amalek
-589- High priest must not enter same roof as a corpse (Parable of Good Samaritan)
- 540s- Death penalty Strangulation, and stoning- Note: I see this all the time from Jews today stoning people (sarcasm)
-514- Canaanite slaves must work forever- also other slave comments- see a lot of Jewish people with their slaves (more sarcasm)
-494- Make a guardrail around flat roofs. (Early Osha - worker safety Law)
-No temple worship laws- many (Obsolete- Jesus tells us he is the temple, we see no more temple- 2000 yrs )
Only looked through roughly( 613-494) of the laws. There are many more I could of listed as obsolete

To Summarize: we see Love God and Love Neighbor still apply to us today- Moral Laws. We see 10 Commandments still apply and we see many of the 613 laws- Do not apply- they are obsolete or not followed at all today- these are primarily civil and ceremonial laws.

2) Christians early on first 50 years started worshiping on Lord's day. We see this referred to in NT and by writing of the early church fathers. Also Logically Makes sense, Jesus rose on Sunday- Lords day and also Jews were hostile to early Christians (See Saul)- thought they were blasphemous and killed them.

So Agie95,

Curious how did you go from Baptist- to rejecting Christian understanding of Jesus and becoming Jewish? What was the compelling event?

Oddly enough, if I was going to have a criticism of K2, booboo, or agie95, that criticism would be pretty similar in each case. From the way I see it, you all worship the Father, Son, Spirit and something else as well. The Godhead has an extraneous addition.

For agie95, this is the Torah. He has said many times that Christ was the living embodiment of the Torah, the Torah is perfect, and the Torah is divine. So to me it sounds like he is elevating Torah to the level of Father, Son, and Spirit. Since he sees Christ as equivalent to Torah, I don't he would even object to this classification.

For K2, booboo and our various Catholics, it is Father, Son, Spirit and Church. K2 has said on occasion that the Church (his church specifically, but also "pure" Christianity more generally) is perfect and without flaw. The Church complete with beliefs, teachings, and practices is completely inerrable, indestructible, incorruptable, and indomitable. This is usually couched by either saying that the Church is Christ's perfect bride or that it is the earthly manifestation of the Spirit.

Either way, it honestly sort of sets my teeth on edge. The Torah and the Church are both blessings sent directly from God, but even those can become idols. You don't have to look any further than the bronze serpent from the Exodus to see an example of this. Both the Torah and Church provide instruction and structure to faith, but when you elevate either to the actual level of God you steer into idolatry.

About me you are quite wrong. While the Divine God spoke the Divine Torah that doesn't make it equal. It is not like I make this stuff up. The Word became flesh. The Mashiach is a manifestation of God, not God Himself.

The Torah just like anything else can become an idol, but I don't worship the Torah. I am in awe of it. I have reverence towards it. I do not idolize it. Just as Paul skewed his message to be mostly about grace because of the lack of knowledge and acceptance, I skew my message to be about Torah for the lack of knowledge and acceptance of those today.

Nice judgment call. Completely wrong and provides nothing, but your incorrect opinion.

Just going off what you've already written. You equate the Torah and the Logos. You say they are the same. John 1 calls the Logos God. If you believe the Torah is the Logos, and you believe John 1, then you quite literally believe the Torah is God. I'm happy to be corrected, but I've seen you make that exact connection.

God said "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the Lord." Isaiah 55:8.

You say the food commandments are done with, obsolete, etc, yet in Isaiah 66:17 it says "Who eat swine's flesh, detestable things and mice, Will come to an end altogether," declares the Lord."

They are not obsolete. Just b/c the constitution of Israel is not the Torah today, like it was in the beginning, does not mean these are obsolete.

You don't accept Yeshua's word, even though you say you do. He said anyone who annuls one of the least of the commandments will be least in the kingdom. Well, is that not what some of the Pharisees were doing? Putting aside some of the commandments for their traditions? Then in v20 Yeshua says unless your righteousness exceeds their's, you will not enter the kingdom. Least in the kingdom means not in. Yeshua taught to follow the Torah. All of it....not just moral.

Christians did not start worshiping on Sunday early on. No where in Acts or the epistles is this stated. Not one place. Complete fallacy by the church.

You can give your opinion all day long, but Scripture says otherwise. What you are effectively saying is the words spoken from God's mouth, not in a vision, not in a dream, but spoken to the Israelites and Moses, are obsolete. God's words are obsolete? Yeshua said He did not come to abolish, but that is exactly what you are saying.