Thank you for all the positive comments, you guys. I'm happy to give my perspective and add a new viewpoint to the discussions on this board.

Also, one of the doctrinal explanations given by the 48th Imam was a reconciliation of Darwinian evolution and Islamic creation story. Ismaili philosophers from the 900s wrote in a series of treatises referred to as the Epistles of the Brethren of Purity (some of these have been published by Oxford in English) about theorizing that life developed from particles and that ocean life eventually became land life.

"The creation according to Islam is not a unique act in a given time but a perpetual and constant event; and God supports and sustains all existence at every moment by His will and His thought. Outside His will, outside His thought, all is nothing, even the things which seem to us absolutely self-evident such as space and time. Allh alone wishes: the Universe exists; and all manifestations are as a witness of the Divine will."

Imm Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III

Ismailism adheres to classical creationism rather than the Young Earth belief.

Thus Islam's basic principle can only be defined as monorealism and not as monotheism. Consider, for example, the opening declaration of every Islamic prayer: "Allhu-Akbar". What does that mean? There can be no doubt that the second word of the declaration likens the character of Allah to a matrix which contains all and gives existence to the infinite, to space, to time, to the Universe, to all active and passive forces imaginable, to life and to the soul."

Imam Sultan Muhammad Shah Aga Khan III

The Ismaili Philosopher and Missionary Nasir Tusi famously wrote of Ismaili beliefs on creation:

"The natural kingdoms began with solidification [of minerals], then [there came] plants, then animals and then human beings. The final stage of minerals was joined to the first stage of the plant kingdom, the final stage of the plant kingdom to the first stage of the animal kingdom, the final stage of the animal kingdom to the first stage of man, and the final stage of man to the first stage of the angelic kingdom. Since the chain of existence (silsila-yi wujd), [causing] the return of all things to the Command of the Almighty, reached its completion in the perfect status of man, and since the ability to acquire such perfection, [consisting of diverse] intellectual conveniences and physical tools, was particular to man, it is clear that, although the mineral, plant and animal kingdoms preceded him in [the temporal order of] existence, the ultimate aim of all of them was him. And it is said, 'the first in thought is the last in action.'"

Nasr al-Din al-Tusi, (The Paradise of Submission, 29)

This shouldn't be confused with the idea of an intelligent creator. I suppose in any sense one would have to dumb down the grandeur of God to describe it, but it's almost as if everything we perceive - the laws of physics, the dimensions which we perceive, the wavelengths of light visible to us - and everything we cannot - the physics we cannot go beyond, the dimensions invisible to us, the wavelengths of light we can't perceive - all exist in sustenance by God. All this, which we can sum up as reality, leads by processes which to us are visible as evolution to the reflection of the ultimate rational soul - God - in tiny shards which are collectively termed mankind. Tusi seems to suggest that the evolution of man is yet incomplete, as we have yet to evolve into the Angelic kingdom. Read metaphorically (as all Ismailism is supposed to be) I suppose you can say that there is further change in pursuit of, for lack of a better word, perfection.

Thank you canadiaggie for your detailed response. Very informative.

What is the role of the prophet Isa/Yeshua/Jesus in Islam? And is christianity considered idolatry?

Here is a link to an article on the very subject, which is part of a series that is comparing and contrasting the Muslim view of the end times vs the Christian, so the focus is on the end time theology. I believe this is written with theSunni, particularly Salafi perspective in mind.

The entire series shows that the common Christian & Muslim views of the end times are mirror images (opposites) of each other.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Here is a link to an article on the very subject, which is part of a series that is comparing and contrasting the Muslim view of the end times vs the Christian, so the focus is on the end time theology. I believe this is written with theSunni, particularly Salafi perspective in mind.

The entire series shows that the common Christian & Muslim views of the end times are mirror images (opposites) of each other.

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Yeah this is a crock of nonsense. Going to respond to this after Property law, but this is one of those "anti-Islam phD" websites I mentioned earlier. Nothing on AnsweringIslam should be taken literally.

Also, keep in mind that Salafi views on eschatology are not the same as standard Sunni views on eschatology.

Fair enough.

Like I said, I think it was taking the Salafi perspective. I've love to hear yours when you're ready.

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

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Fair enough.

Like I said, I think it was taking the Salafi perspective. I've love to hear yours when you're ready.

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Now that I've had time to read it, I think it's actually a huge mishmash of differing perspectives that purports to represent an all-encompassing Islamic perspective but really just confuses different eschatological theories. But I think this is a good time to just generally discuss differing Islamic perspectives on Jesus to begin with.

To examine that, let's just cursorily discuss prophethood in general.

Prophethood is expansive. There are commonly considered to be in surplus of 100,000 prophets sent to humanity over time. This means that Islamic authorities have often claimed that people like Akhenaten, Siddharta Gautama Buddha, and Zoroaster and some have even claimed Plato to be prophets of God.

However, there are prophets mentioned by name, and then there are prophets elevated above the rest. The ones mentioned by name are the generally common Abrahamic figures - Solomon-Sulayman, David-Dawood, Ezekiel-Dhulqarnain, John the Baptist-Yahya/Yuhanna, etc. etc.

Then, among the named prophets are the 6 Speakers, Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad. These are considered to be elevated above the rest in terms of their significance to Abrahamic religions.

Jesus is universally considered to be the al-Masih messiah in the Qur'an. In addition, his birth is of the Virgin Mary, although under different circumstances (under a palm tree rather than in a manger).

"And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit." - 2:87 Qur'an

"He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son."
She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" He said: "So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It is a matter (so) decreed. So she conceived him, and she retired with him to a remote place. - 19:19-22 Qur'an

The Qur'an also refers to Jesus as the "kalimaat" - word - and "ruh" - spirit - from God.

Qur'an 4:171 "Christ Jesus the Son of Mary was a Messenger of God, and His Word (kalimatuhu), which he bestowed on Mary, and a Spirit from Him (ruhu minhu)"

Keep in mind that the Qur'an is to be considered the primary authority on Jesus's status on Islam. Hadith can be weak, fake, or falsified, but the Qur'an is consistent.

Now the two main doctrinal differences between Jesus in the Islamic context and the Christian context are this: his status as the son of God, and whether or not he was truly crucified.

Islam unequivocally rejects the idea that anyone can be the physical son of God. However, what that means in a spiritual context can vary. Isma'ili thought and Shi'a thought generally associates the concept of Imamat with our Imams and with Jesus, that the Imams possess a dual nature - created human, and divine light - which lines up with what many Christians believe that Jesus has two natures - human and divine - in the same being. I believe this is the Chalcedonian belief? In other words, Jesus is not the son of God in the sense that he was begat by God, but rather he was created specially by God (given to a virgin and created entirely immaculate). However, Jesus is the bearer of the Holy Spirit, and considered to occupy an elevated status.

The issue of the crucifixion is very complex. The orthodox Sunni view is that Jesus was not crucified and instead raised to heaven, and that in his stead, the Romans believed they crucified someone else. However, some modern Sunni thinkers, like Mahmoud Ayoub, have come to a position closer to the Ismaili view.

The Ismaili (and possibly Twelver) Shi'a view is summarized as such: Historically, Jesus was crucified and killed; there was no 'substitute'. That which 'appeared to them' (shubbiha lahum) as referenced in the Qur'an as being crucified was precisely the body or human nature (nasut) of Jesus. Christ's soul, as the manifestation of his divine nature (lahut), could not be killed and this is what the Qur'an speaks of when it says "they killed him not, nor did they crucify him". The Bible and the Qur'an are thus in agreement over the Crucifixion in the Ismaili view.

The Ismaili philosopher Abu Hatim al-Razi wrote, in the Middle Ages:

"An example of this is in the Evangel (al-Injil) is [to be found] in the Gospel of John (Bushra Yuhana): 'The Messiah died in body (bi-al-jasad), whereas he is alive in the spirit (bi-al-ruh).' So they thought that he who died in the body was delivered from sin. And in the Gospel of Luke (Bushra Luqa) [it is said]: 'I say to you, oh my dear friends (awliya'i), do nto fear those who kill the body, but cannot do more than that' And in the Gospel of Matthew (Bushra Matta) [it is said]: 'Do not fear those who kill the body but are not able to kill the soul, and do fear the one who can [both] destroy the soul and cast the body into the fire [of hell]' these passages from the Gospels are consistent with the Qur'an in terms of their actual meaning, since both the scriptures attest that Jesus could not be killed in the full sense, that is, in both body and soul."

As to the article about eschatological perspectives on Jesus, I just wanted to say it is a mishmash. For example, the belief that the Mahdi is superior to the Masih (Jesus) is a purely Twelver belief. That is not shared by Ismaili Shi'a or by orthodox Sunnis. It's a later tradition that probably emerged to justify their Mahdist theology. You can tell by the reference to the 12th Imam that it is probably not an original Hadith.

I don't wanna refute it point by point, but I also want to make another note.

When the article quotes the hadith about Jesus breaking crosses and whatnot, or "abolishing Christianity" - it's not that Christianity gets abolished and replaced by Islam and we all become Muslims. When it refers to Islam in that context, it doesn't mean Islam in the way that we know it today, or as the organized religion as it was even established by Muhammad. The Islam of the eschatological sense is the primordial faith of Abraham, or the perfect religion of God. That is because the Qur'an itself acknowledges that it will be interpreted in multiple ways, and that God will judge on what is thought to differ. When religions are "abolished" everything will be reconciled, something Islam is not exempt from. Of course every sect believes that the reconciliation of all Abrahamic religion will come to settle on their interpretation.

The Ismaili eschatology view is that Jesus and the Mahdi are the establishers of the Qiyamah, or the Apocalypse, not in the sense that the world will end but rather in the sense that all religious law - Sharia, Mosaic law, etc. will be abrogated and the world will be filled with gnosis and one-ness with God. This is similar to the Sufi view of fana fillah, which refers to the submergence of souls back into the Ultimate Soul (God) which, historically, was the majority view of the Muslim world as it was expounded by al-Ghazali.

Al-Ghazali gets a really bad rap in that he is often blamed for the death of Muslim rational philosophy, but in reality al-Ghazali's writings reflect a very religiously troubled individual caught between the rationalistic and the esoterical arguments of Ismailis and Sufis and the rigid orthodoxy of Sunni sharia. In his youth he derided philosophy, but as he grew older he turned into a philosophical Sufi, adopting many Sufi-Ismaili views on ideas about the Resurrection. He's an extremely interesting figure.

commando2004 said:

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What is the role of the prophet Isa/Yeshua/Jesus in Islam? And is christianity considered idolatry?

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Please see above posts. Also note that no, Islam does not seriously regard Christanity as idolatrous in any sense. While some Muslims may make the argument that the trinity is idolatry, the Qur'an is aware of Trinitarian Christianity and while it disagrees, it does not diminish the idea that Christianity is a valid Abrahamic religion and that Christians are welcome in paradise.

Also, Shi'i and Sufi-Sunni versions of Islam recognize that tawassul - intercession - of holy figures is possible. For Ismailis and Twelvers, the intercession is through the figure of the Imam. For Sufi-Sunnis, it is through Prophet Muhammad or their saints, poets, and holy mystics (some of whom were Ismaili or Twelver poets and philosophers, ironically). The Qur'an establishes this when it maintains that Muslims can ask the Prophet for intercession. Similarly, it is common to hear Muslims of all sects say "Ya Muhammad" and call on him to intercede on their behalf with God. Shi'a will often call on the Imam - Ya Mawla, Ya Ali (the first Imam), or Ya Imam-e-Zaman (Ismailis calling on the currently living Imam). Therefore, praying to Jesus is not so alien a concept to Muslims as one might think.

It is however antithetical to the Salafi/Wahhabi extreme form of Islam, which is what SoloTetherball was referring to correctly up there. This is why I maintain that Salafi-Wahhabi forms of Islam are threats that should be combated by classical Sunni-Sufism and Shi'a philosophy and theology at all times.

There are many popular folk songs and poems in Islamic traditions, like Sunni-majority Pakistan, which are prayers to Muhammad for some kind of relief or intercession on their behalf. Often, they take the theme that the singer is a poor beggar or believer who goes to Muhammad's house, and that no one gets turned away there. The idea is that the person is outwardly begging for money or food, but inwardly begging for spiritual fulfillment, and they come away from Muhammad's house having been granted both through his intercession with God.

Thanks for doing this AMA thread canadiaggie! ... Especially on TexAgs - I praise you and the sound knowledge you're bringing here with patience. I started something like this on an internal TAMU forum for students only we had back the early 2000s and it was met with some success and a little animosity, but TexAgs Religion & Philosophy is another animal.

Tried to PM you, but I suppose it's not possible with free membership... I'm in central Houston, and bounce between HPC, HQ, and CL. Where/which JK are you a part of?

Email me (frito@inlinegraphix.com) if prefer to instead of replying here - would love to hear from you.

Bumping this thread since Mahershala Ali, the first Muslim to win an Oscar, is in fact a member of the Ahmadiyya Community, which we discussed here. It made for a bit of interesting twitter drama for those of us who follow Pakistan's politics and culture.

The Ahmadiyya are extremely active and evangelistic, especially in Western Countries.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/mahershala-ali-muslim-ahmadi-pakistan/518091/

frito said:

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Thanks for doing this AMA thread canadiaggie! ... Especially on TexAgs - I praise you and the sound knowledge you're bringing here with patience. I started something like this on an internal TAMU forum for students only we had back the early 2000s and it was met with some success and a little animosity, but TexAgs Religion & Philosophy is another animal.

Tried to PM you, but I suppose it's not possible with free membership... I'm in central Houston, and bounce between HPC, HQ, and CL. Where/which JK are you a part of?

Email me (frito@inlinegraphix.com) if prefer to instead of replying here - would love to hear from you.

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I'm pretty regular at the Katy khane. I used to go to HPC way back in the day but now people from HPC go here. I think the rush over there is too much for a lot of people and they come to Katy for a more laid back atmosphere.

Good to hear from another Ismaili on the board, didn't know there were others.

TheFirebird said:

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Bumping this thread since Mahershala Ali, the first Muslim to win an Oscar, is in fact a member of the Ahmadiyya Community, which we discussed here. It made for a bit of interesting twitter drama for those of us who follow Pakistan's politics and culture.

The Ahmadiyya are extremely active and evangelistic, especially in Western Countries.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/02/mahershala-ali-muslim-ahmadi-pakistan/518091/

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I saw this and I was astounded at all the people on my Facebook feed, many of them Sunnis, sharing this and saying how proud they were. I don't think most of them realized he is Ahmadiyya and I made a post saying that I found it incredibly hypocritical to claim this as a Muslim first when most of the people cheering this on would be the first in line to trash and oppress the Ahmadiyya community.

I for one laud the Ahmadiyya and their success finding a way to integrate their Islamic ethics in the modern world.

Did Jesus have the authority to forgive?

bmks270 said:

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Did Jesus have the authority to forgive?

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Yes, the Qur'an references the ability of the prophets (so Jesus included) as the signs of divine mercy and forgiveness. Do you mean forgiveness in the sense of original sin, however? If so, Islam follows Judaism in that there is no real concept of original sin in its theology.