From the Politics board

5,245 Views | 103 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Ag_of_08
PacifistAg
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7:54p, 1/24/17
AG
A Personal Story

I thought this would be good to share here. First and foremost for prayers for her family and friends that are in mourning. Second, as a reminder that we never know who may read our posts and we never know what is going on in their lives. The way I engage, and the lack of thought/contemplation with regards to the tone of what I post, is something I have been struggling with lately. Words can hurt, and just because we've got anonymity here, there are real people on the other side of the screen.

Quote:

This board like it's weekly trans thread, here's one for you to call a freak, to legislate into hiding and make fun of

Someone I know very well who never came out put a pistol in their mouth this morning and pulled the trigger. Her family has asked me not to name names, but will respect her wish to be buried as female.

I hope she finally found the peace she was looking for, and I hope her family will make it through this.

For all the Caitlin Jenner jokes, and making fun of trans women.... Stop and think. I'm no ****ing snowflake, but the constant litany of disgust and depreciation wear on even the strongest of us. And she was far stronger than I am.

I spoke with her mother, whom new me( the young lady was not out ), and she will be buried under her chosen name in a quiet ceremony. They're still debating military honors, she was a six year combat veteran , with a purple heart and a bronze star, Iraq and Afghanistan ( rode the roof gun on a hmmv among other things

May she rest in peace in the next life she never found in this one. Semper fi"

Sorry, this one hit home hard.
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diehard03
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11:14p, 1/24/17
Quote:
the lack of thought/contemplation with regards to the tone of what I post

This is hard because you can't control how someone reads your post in their head. I think often we get off the rails here because 2 people are interpreting the conversation in completely different directions.

I think if there's a take away, it's that we should be slow to think the other person is being intentionally antagonizing and quick to recheck our own posts to see if there's a way they could reading the words differently.
If we are honest, we will admit that we often sacrifice clarity for speed.
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Martin Q. Blank
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8:56a, 1/25/17
The obsession with liberation and freedom in this country has pushed us to this point. From government to religion to truth to parents to teachers to supervisors to corporations to family to police to marriage to finances to economics to consumption to diet, etc. etc. etc.

We are now having a national debate on the merits of someone attempting to liberate themselves from nature itself. Using the proper pronouns according to the English language in accordance with nature now "lacks thought/contemplation." I hate suicide, no matter who they are or what their struggles were. These people need to seek help from someone who will treat their dysphoria, and not from internet message boards. What they don't need is a complicit society to help them in their attempted liberation. It is impossible and not something that should be desired in the first place.
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diehard03
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9:12a, 1/25/17
Quote:
We are now having a national debate on the merits of someone attempting to liberate themselves from nature itself.

I think its also on us to seek to understand before we judge. I will admit that I don't fully understand what's going on inside someone to cause them to want to change the "gender they express", for lack of a better term.

It does seem like it's beyond a boy liking pink and thinking he should become a woman.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to diehard03 • 9:21a, 1/25/17
I agree, to the extent of attempting to understand other body dysphorias like anorexia. I understand they think they are too fat, there is an underlining issue, let's work to correct it through various therapies, habits, etc.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:41a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
The obsession with liberation and freedom in this country has pushed us to this point. From government to religion to truth to parents to teachers to supervisors to corporations to family to police to marriage to finances to economics to consumption to diet, etc. etc. etc.

We are now having a national debate on the merits of someone attempting to liberate themselves from nature itself. Using the proper pronouns according to the English language in accordance with nature now "lacks thought/contemplation." I hate suicide, no matter who they are or what their struggles were. These people need to seek help from someone who will treat their dysphoria, and not from internet message boards. What they don't need is a complicit society to help them in their attempted liberation. It is impossible and not something that should be desired in the first place.
The point of sharing this w/ this board is to hopefully get people to realize that while our identities are anonymous here, there are very real people on the other sides of the screen. We don't know what people are going through, whether gender dysphoria, depression, substance abuse, etc. We rationalize boorish and offensive behavior by saying "well, it's how the internet is". It doesn't have to be like that. Being an ass is wrong, no matter the forum or level of anonymity.

So, to use the example shared by Ag_of_08, perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to call people like her "freaks" or any other derogatory names that are often used in these types of settings towards that community. But, this isn't just a gender identity issue. We see it across the board. People, many that will be in pews on a Sunday, treating people like garbage and rationalizing it because it's anonymous. That's what I'm saying. Just don't be an ass to people. If you are a Christian, we aren't exempt from treating others with love, respect and gentleness simply because we are engaging in an anonymous setting.

My "lacks thought/contemplation" has to do w/ my tone recently. It's a blind spot for me. It wasn't about the issue of gender dysphoria.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:41a, 1/25/17
Quote:
I understand they thinkthey are too fat, there is an underlining issue, let's work to correct it through various therapies, habits, etc.
Exactly. You don't help them by handing them diet pills and putting them on a treadmill.

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PacifistAg
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In reply to Solo Tetherball Champ • 9:45a, 1/25/17
AG
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
Quote:
I understand they thinkthey are too fat, there is an underlining issue, let's work to correct it through various therapies, habits, etc.
Exactly. You don't help them by handing them diet pills and putting them on a treadmill.
Nor do you help them by calling them freaks, ostracizing them, and condemning them about a subject you (not you specifically, but in general) may be completely ignorant on.
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PacifistAg
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9:47a, 1/25/17
AG
Let's not get derailed by the specific subject in the OP. This thread is not about gender dysphoria. That issue was simply used as an example of the real issue, which is how we engage with each other.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 9:48a, 1/25/17
If I use pronouns according to nature, is that a derogatory name? If I encourage Ag_of_08 to seek help to correct his dysphoria, am I treating him like garbage?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to diehard03 • 9:49a, 1/25/17
AG
Quote:
This is hard because you can't control how someone reads your post in their head. I think often we get off the rails here because 2 people are interpreting the conversation in completely different directions.

I think if there's a take away, it's that we should be slow to think the other person is being intentionally antagonizing and quick to recheck our own posts to see if there's a way they could reading the words differently.
If we are honest, we will admit that we often sacrifice clarity for speed.
I think another take away is that, before hitting "post", we should consider not only what our intent is behind our post, but also how others may interpret it.
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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to PacifistAg • 9:50a, 1/25/17
AG
Quote:
Just don't be an ass to people
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 9:52a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
If I use pronouns according to nature, is that a derogatory name? If I encourage Ag_of_08 to seek help to correct his dysphoria, am I treating him like garbage?
Why are you fixating on the issue of gender dysphoria? You are a Christian, right? If you can say that you truly engage Ag_of_08 with respect, love and gentleness, then great. This isn't just about gender dysphoria though.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 9:56a, 1/25/17
AG
ramblin_ag02 said:
Quote:
Just don't be an ass to people
In hindsight, I should have simply left out the personal story in the OP, because it appears to be distracting from the true point that you get. Don't be an ass. Treat people with love, respect, and gentleness. As followers of Christ, this should be obvious, but it seems as though anonymity often brings out the worst in us.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 10:01a, 1/25/17
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
If I use pronouns according to nature, is that a derogatory name? If I encourage Ag_of_08 to seek help to correct his dysphoria, am I treating him like garbage?
Why are you fixating on the issue of gender dysphoria? You are a Christian, right? If you can say that you truly engage Ag_of_08 with respect, love and gentleness, then great. This isn't just about gender dysphoria though.
I'm specifically asking if using proper pronouns and encouraging people with a bodily dysphoria to seek help is engaging them with respect, love and gentleness. Or is it the opposite? Anybody can say "engage them with respect, love and gentleness." This last election cycle, that means to some yelling, destroying personal property and beating people up. So it kind of has a fluid meaning person to person. I'm asking you.
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diehard03
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:07a, 1/25/17
In your exact example, I'd say intentionally referring to a different pronoun than they want to be called would be treating them like garbage.

You can call "him" she if she wants to be called that and still disagree with the concept of transgender identity.

It's just common courtesy.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:15a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
If I use pronouns according to nature, is that a derogatory name? If I encourage Ag_of_08 to seek help to correct his dysphoria, am I treating him like garbage?
Why are you fixating on the issue of gender dysphoria? You are a Christian, right? If you can say that you truly engage Ag_of_08 with respect, love and gentleness, then great. This isn't just about gender dysphoria though.
I'm specifically asking if using proper pronouns and encouraging people with a bodily dysphoria to seek help is engaging them with respect, love and gentleness. Or is it the opposite? Anybody can say "engage them with respect, love and gentleness." This last election cycle, that means to some yelling, destroying personal property and beating people up. So it kind of has a fluid meaning person to person. I'm asking you.
My personal view on it is to use the preferred pronouns. As diehard said, it's just common courtesy. You can still voice your concerns about their issue, even encourage them to seek counseling, without treating them like garbage. But, using pronouns that you know they reject will only lead to putting people on the defensive and thereby missing out on what was intended to be loving advice.

And I don't know anyone who claims that "destroying personal property and beating people up" is engaging with "respect, love and gentleness".
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Martin Q. Blank
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10:18a, 1/25/17
Thanks. I disagree. I think calling a person with dysphoria something that reinforces their dysphoria is destructive. I wouldn't think calling an anorexic underweight is treating them like garbage.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:23a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
Thanks. I disagree. I think calling a person with dysphoria something that reinforces their dysphoria is destructive. I wouldn't think calling an anorexic underweight is treating them like garbage.
Then, I would argue, you are minimizing your chance at providing the help you believe they need. If preferred pronouns are a major issue for the person, which is often the case w/ gender dysphoria, you are going to shut down any effective dialogue by dying on that hill. If that's the case, I would recommend simply not engaging them at all, because when the dialogue starts w/ a battle, it typically only devolves from there.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 10:30a, 1/25/17
You may well argue that, but that's a separate argument. Maybe I should try to carefully construct my sentences to avoid pronouns altogether. But if I use one properly, I'm still not treating them like garbage, correct?
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PacifistAg
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10:31a, 1/25/17
AG
Or as Christ said, "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you". There is no "anonymity" asterisk to this.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:36a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
You may well argue that, but that's a separate argument. Maybe I should try to carefully construct my sentences to avoid pronouns altogether. But if I use one properly, I'm still not treating them like garbage, correct?
No, it's really not a separate argument. You brought up one of your reasons as wanting them to get help. You minimize your ability to do so when starting the engagement on hostile terms. Whether or not your intent is to be hostile doesn't change how the other may perceive it. Simply be conscious of how others may perceive your words. Do you want them to get help, or do you want them to know that you don't agree with their use of pronouns?

But you touch on a good point. Yes, if you have an issue with using their preferred pronouns, then it may take some effort on your part, but carefully construct your statements so the other person will still be receptive while not violating your conscience. What I've noticed, and have certainly been guilty of, is a laziness in how we communicate. It's a lack of thoughtfulness. We say what's on our mind without much consideration for how others will receive it. It can easily lead to unnecessary pain and broken relationships.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 10:38a, 1/25/17
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:43a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to PacifistAg • 10:52a, 1/25/17
RetiredAg said:
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
Quote:
I understand they thinkthey are too fat, there is an underlining issue, let's work to correct it through various therapies, habits, etc.
Exactly. You don't help them by handing them diet pills and putting them on a treadmill.
Nor do you help them by calling them freaks, ostracizing them, and condemning them about a subject you (not you specifically, but in general) may be completely ignorant on.
Surely there must be a middle ground between encouraging people to continue in their situation and insulting them!


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ramblin_ag02
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In reply to Solo Tetherball Champ • 10:57a, 1/25/17
AG
I think we've run into this discussion before. The Golden Rule "Treat people how you want to be treated" and the Platinum Rule "Treat people how they want to be treated" can both have serious flaws in these situations.

As a side note, the person cutting off a conversation over the use of offensive pronouns is being just as much of an ass as the person who won't stop using them. Two sides, same coin.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 10:57a, 1/25/17
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.
If I call Bruce Jenner a man, am I being prideful?
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Solo Tetherball Champ • 11:06a, 1/25/17
AG
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
RetiredAg said:
Solo Tetherball Champ said:
Quote:
I understand they thinkthey are too fat, there is an underlining issue, let's work to correct it through various therapies, habits, etc.
Exactly. You don't help them by handing them diet pills and putting them on a treadmill.
Nor do you help them by calling them freaks, ostracizing them, and condemning them about a subject you (not you specifically, but in general) may be completely ignorant on.
Surely there must be a middle ground between encouraging people to continue in their situation and insulting them!
Absolutely. To find that middle ground, we need to be more thoughtful in how we engage though. That's my point w/ this thread. Too often we are very "shoot from the hip", which does not help the situation, especially because many times that "shoot from the hip" mentality on issues like this tends to end up w/ personal attacks from both sides.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to ramblin_ag02 • 11:07a, 1/25/17
AG
Quote:
As a side note, the person cutting off a conversation over the use of offensive pronouns is being just as much of an ass as the person who won't stop using them. Two sides, same coin.
Agreed. That's why it's best to be thoughtful about how you engage so as to not lead to the dialogue being cut off immediately. We also need to be more respectful in how we listen and not assume the worst intent. You are right. It goes both ways. The key, however, for both sides is to be respectful and thoughtful in the engagement.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:10a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.
If I call Bruce Jenner a man, am I being prideful?
I don't know your heart. FYI, her name is Caitlyn. I'm pretty sure she's legally changed her name.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:11a, 1/25/17
I usually stay off those threads. User intent is so easy to misread.

Besides, when was the last time any of us had our opinion changed on an internet forum?
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PacifistAg
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11:12a, 1/25/17
AG
Once again, the point of the thread is not to discuss the specific issue of gender dysphoria. It's about being more thoughtful and respectful in how we engage. Let's not get bogged down in these rabbit trails. This is a problem far greater than this one specific issue.
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:13a, 1/25/17
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.
If I call Bruce Jenner a man, am I being prideful?
I don't know your heart. FYI, her name is Caitlyn. I'm pretty sure she's legally changed her name.
If I call Caitlyn Jenner a man with my heart's intent to use the English language properly, am I being prideful?
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Martin Q. Blank
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In reply to PacifistAg • 11:15a, 1/25/17
RetiredAg said:
Once again, the point of the thread is not to discuss the specific issue of gender dysphoria. It's about being more thoughtful and respectful in how we engage. Let's not get bogged down in these rabbit trails. This is a problem far greater than this one specific issue.
The problem is my idea of thoughtful and respectful dialogue you think of as treating someone like garbage. It's a useless phrase.
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PacifistAg
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 11:18a, 1/25/17
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
RetiredAg said:
Martin Q. Blank said:
And also said "for you have had five husbands, and the one you now have is not your husband. What you have said is true."

And "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?"

Didn't shy away from facts because it might make someone feel bad.
He also knows the hearts of people. We don't. As I said in my last post, this may require you to exert some energy and thought to engage respectfully and in a way that won't violate your conscience. But, is your concern getting them to accept that you are "right" about the pronoun issue, or is it to get them to seek help? The first one can become a pride issue. If you are uncomfortable using preferred pronouns, fine. This just means you may need to be more thoughtful in your choice of words so as to not shut down the dialogue while not violating your conscience.
If I call Bruce Jenner a man, am I being prideful?
I don't know your heart. FYI, her name is Caitlyn. I'm pretty sure she's legally changed her name.
If I call Caitlyn Jenner a man with my heart's intent to use the English language properly, am I being prideful?
I don't know your heart. Only you can truly say why you insist on calling her man, even it if means pushing those you believe need help further away from the help you claim they need. That's why I said it "can" become a pride issue. Is your priority on letting everyone know you are "right", or is it helping those you believe need help?

All I'm saying is be thoughtful about how you engage before you actually engage. Don't just consider your perspective, but consider how your words will be received by others.
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