Mainstreaming heresy

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PacifistAg
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So, my brother had sent this article to me yesterday. This isn't meant to bash Trump, but really more a thread on prosperity gospel.

Evangelicals should be deeply troubled by Donald Trump's attempt to mainstream heresy

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The prosperity gospel the idea that God dispenses material wealth and health based on what we "decree" is not just fluff. It's also not just another branch of Pentecostalism, a tradition that emphasizes the continuation of the gifts of healing, prophecy and tongues. It's another religion.

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In terms of religion, this inauguration exhibits the confluence of two major currents of indigenous American spirituality.

One stream is represented by Norman Vincent Peale's longtime bestseller "The Power of Positive Thinking" (1952). The famous Manhattan pastor is Trump's tenuous connection to Christianity, having heard the preacher frequently in his youth. For Peale and his protege, the late Robert Schuller of Crystal Cathedral fame, the gospel of Christ's death for human sin and resurrection for justification and everlasting life was transformed into a "feel-good" therapy. Self-esteem was the true salvation.

Another stream is represented by the most famous TV preachers, especially those associated with the Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, T. D. Jakes, Joel Osteen and Paula White are the stars of this movement, known as Word of Faith.

The headwater for both streams is New Thought, formulated especially by Phineas Quimby, a late 19th-century mesmerist whose mind-cures attracted Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science. The basic idea of his "gnostic medicine" was that we're sick only because we think bad thoughts. Illness and death are an illusion.

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Kenneth Hagin, revered as "granddaddy" in Word of Faith circles, gave the faith-healing movement its theological core. It included odd teachings about us all being "little gods." Those who are born again, Hagin said, "are as much the incarnation [of God] as Jesus of Nazareth." "You don't have a God living in you," says Hagin's student Kenneth Copeland. "You are one." Creflo Dollar adds, "[The] only human part of you is the flesh you're wearing."

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In the 1950s, American theologian Reinhold Niebuhr described Peale's message as a false gospel: "The basic sin of this cult is its egocentricity," he said. "It puts 'self' instead of the cross at the center of the picture."

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Like her mentor, T. D. Jakes, White adheres closely to the Word of Faith teachings. Besides throwing out doctrines like the Trinity and confusing ourselves with God, the movement teaches that Jesus went to the cross not to bring forgiveness of our sins but to get us out of financial debt, not to reconcile us to God but to give us the power to claim our prosperity, not to remove the curse of death, injustice and bondage to ourselves but to give us our best life now. White says emphatically that Jesus is "not the only begotten Son of God," just the first. We're all divine and have the power to speak worlds into existence.

So if you're still a wreck, that's your fault. Negative thinking. You're the creator, so why not be a successful one? White puts it this way in a television TBN program: "There is creative power in your mouth right now. God spoke and created the universe; you have creative power to speak life and death! If you believe God, you can create anything in your life."

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"Anyone who tells you to deny yourself is from Satan," White told a television TBN audience in 2007. Oops. It was Jesus who said "anyone who would come after me" must "deny himself and take up his cross and follow me" (Matthew 16:24).
Where I can see this being especially dangerous is by having someone who subscribes to these views and holds the power that the POTUS will hold. When righteousness is determined by material success and winning, then all things become permissible if they lead to success and winning, because they are being done for righteousness' sake.

I was also amazed that Paula White, and I'm assuming most prosperity gospel peddlers, rejects the Nicene Creed. I had known that this prosperity gospel nonsense was heretical, but as I read more about it I was astonished as to how heretical it is.

As I said, this is not meant to be a political discussion about Trump. My views would be the same regardless of who held the power, especially if they believed these teachings. This is a thread on the prosperity gospel.
ramblin_ag02
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diehard03
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The other consequence is that's it's forcing christians to accept the prosperity people because of their allegiance to Trump...or rather, their desire to choose ANYTHING but Hillary:

From James Dobson (about the conversion of Trump), clearly trying to dance around this issue:


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"Only the Lord knows the condition of a person's heart. I can only tell you what I've heard. First, Trump appears to be tender to things of the Spirit. I also hear that Paula White has known Trump for years and that she personally led him to Christ.
"Do I know that for sure? No. Do I know the details of that alleged conversion? I can't say that I do.
"But there are many Christian leaders who are serving on a faith advisory committee for Trump in the future. I am among them. There are about 45 of us that includes Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, Jack Graham, Ben Carson, James Robison, Jerry Johnson, and many others whom you would probably know.
"We've all agreed to serve. How will that play out if Trump becomes president? I don't know. It is a good start, I would think.
"If anything, this man is a baby Christian who doesn't have a clue about how believers think, talk and act. All I can tell you is that we have only two choices, Hillary or Donald. Hillary scares me to death.
"And, if Christians stay home because he isn't a better candidate, Hillary will run the world for perhaps eight years. The very thought of that haunts my nights and days. One thing is sure: we need to be in prayer for our nation at this time of crisis."

It's interesting how he's not haunted by a guy whose shifting the country's view on his very religion.
Martin Q. Blank
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Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Actually Trump is right.

Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."

How does what you bolded change the statement at all?

Are you saying the poor aren't blessed?
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PacifistAg
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Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
No, Trump just interrupted Jesus before He could finish the statement.
Martin Q. Blank
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

Actually Trump is right.

Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
How does what you bolded change the statement at all?
"poor" and "poor in spirit" are two different things. Different things in a statement constitute a change.
Martin Q. Blank
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RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
No, Trump just interrupted Jesus before He could finish the statement.
Trump was obviously saying "Blessed are the poor" is not the entire statement of Matthew 5:3 as the picture suggests.
PacifistAg
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diehard03 said:

The other consequence is that's it's forcing christians to accept the prosperity people because of their allegiance to Trump...or rather, their desire to choose ANYTHING but Hillary:

From James Dobson (about the conversion of Trump), clearly trying to dance around this issue:


Quote:

"Only the Lord knows the condition of a person's heart. I can only tell you what I've heard. First, Trump appears to be tender to things of the Spirit. I also hear that Paula White has known Trump for years and that she personally led him to Christ.
"Do I know that for sure? No. Do I know the details of that alleged conversion? I can't say that I do.
"But there are many Christian leaders who are serving on a faith advisory committee for Trump in the future. I am among them. There are about 45 of us that includes Franklin Graham, Robert Jeffress, Jack Graham, Ben Carson, James Robison, Jerry Johnson, and many others whom you would probably know.
"We've all agreed to serve. How will that play out if Trump becomes president? I don't know. It is a good start, I would think.
"If anything, this man is a baby Christian who doesn't have a clue about how believers think, talk and act. All I can tell you is that we have only two choices, Hillary or Donald. Hillary scares me to death.
"And, if Christians stay home because he isn't a better candidate, Hillary will run the world for perhaps eight years. The very thought of that haunts my nights and days. One thing is sure: we need to be in prayer for our nation at this time of crisis."

It's interesting how he's not haunted by a guy whose shifting the country's view on his very religion.
That statement is telling. So much fear in it.
PacifistAg
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Martin Q. Blank said:

RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
No, Trump just interrupted Jesus before He could finish the statement.
Trump was obviously saying "Blessed are the poor" is not the entire statement of Matthew 5:3 as the picture suggests.
Except he said Christ was wrong, when the elipses clearly indicates Christ was going to continue in His statement. No, Christ isn't wrong in this picture. He is just interrupted and prevented from finishing His statement.

Oh wait. You're just trolling. Sorry, carry on.
ramblin_ag02
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So please explain to me the difference between poor and poor in Spirit.
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PacifistAg
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ramblin_ag02 said:

So please explain to me the difference between poor and poor in Spirit.
He's just trolling. It's his schtick. Best to just ignore and let him tire himself out.
Woody2006
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ramblin_ag02 said:


That's awesome
Martin Q. Blank
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ramblin_ag02 said:

So please explain to me the difference between poor and poor in Spirit.
one has the words "in spirit" appended to it.
Martin Q. Blank
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RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
No, Trump just interrupted Jesus before He could finish the statement.
Trump was obviously saying "Blessed are the poor" is not the entire statement of Matthew 5:3 as the picture suggests.
Except he said Christ was wrong, when the elipses clearly indicates Christ was going to continue in His statement. No, Christ isn't wrong in this picture. He is just interrupted and prevented from finishing His statement.
Except he's telling the person who put "Matthew 5:3" they are wrong for not putting the rest of the statement on the picture.
PacifistAg
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Martin Q. Blank said:

RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

RetiredAg said:

Martin Q. Blank said:


Quote:



Actually Trump is right.
Matt. 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
No, Trump just interrupted Jesus before He could finish the statement.
Trump was obviously saying "Blessed are the poor" is not the entire statement of Matthew 5:3 as the picture suggests.
Except he said Christ was wrong, when the elipses clearly indicates Christ was going to continue in His statement. No, Christ isn't wrong in this picture. He is just interrupted and prevented from finishing His statement.
Except he's telling the person who put "Matthew 5:3" they are wrong for not putting the rest of the statement on the picture.
Goodness. They didn't put the rest to imply that Trump was interrupting. Hence the elipses. But congrats. You've managed to derail a thread with your incessant trolling.
Martin Q. Blank
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Then they should put "first 4 words of Matthew 5:3 before interruption." Otherwise Trump is right.
PacifistAg
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Martin Q. Blank said:

Then they should put "first 4 words of Matthew 5:3 before interruption." Otherwise Trump is right.
Or just put an elipses to indicate more words are coming. Can you please stop w/ your typical schtick and get back on topic? I know that's a lot to ask, but I'm sure you can do it if you put your mind to it.
Martin Q. Blank
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yah and put "first 4 words of Matthew 5:3 before interruption."
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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I've been around what is called prosperity gospel, so I'm familiar with the message and what those types actually say. Without having heard the context that those messages were pulled from, I can tell you that those quotes are stretched of context.

And yes, there is a difference between "Poor" and "Poor in Spirit". You can be both, and you can be one or the other. To look at a biblical figure, David was an example of both. I personally know many wealthy men who are extremely humble.

Now, feel free to criticize the televangelists who promise healings in exchange for a sum of money wired their way.
PacifistAg
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Oh, I watched a video of Paula White, as she was pimping this nonsense. She rejects the Nicene Creed. I'll try to find the videos on it.
Jim Hogg is angry
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Franklin Graham's benediction. Praying boldly in the name of Jesus Christ and proclaiming the truth of 1 Timothy 2:5.
PacifistAg
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TampaBayAg said:

Franklin Graham's benediction. Praying boldly in the name of Jesus Christ and proclaiming the truth of 1 Timothy 2:5.
Franklin Graham....chaplain for the empire. Sad that he shares a stage w/ heretics like Paula White and does nothing to rebuke it.

It's a shame, because Samaritan's Purse does great work, but he is certainly not his father.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Never heard of her, so that's not really going to influence me.

And I will concede that there probably are many so-called prosperity preachers out there who are little better than conmen. But we know from history that there have been abuses in all denominations.
PacifistAg
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

Never heard of her, so that's not really going to influence me.

And I will concede that there probably are many so-called prosperity preachers out there who are little better than conmen. But we know from history that there have been abuses in all denominations.
True, but the prosperity gospel is itself heretical. These are textbook false prophets.
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RetiredAg said:

TampaBayAg said:

Franklin Graham's benediction. Praying boldly in the name of Jesus Christ and proclaiming the truth of 1 Timothy 2:5.
Franklin Graham....chaplain for the empire. Sad that he shares a stage w/ heretics like Paula White and does nothing to rebuke it.

It's a shame, because Samaritan's Purse does great work, but he is certainly not his father.
Paula White is heretical. I am thankful that her and her ex-husband's church here in Tampa was bulldozed. I went to it once when they were still married and pimping a $10MM house on Bayshore. I was not a Christian at the time and it was my first experience with the charismatic Word of Faith movement. It was pure insanity.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?


PacifistAg
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?


In this cult, we are at the center, not the cross. It teaches that winning and material success are signs of righteousness. Even one of the lead peddlers of this said that anyone that tells you to deny yourself is from Satan (alarmingly, she's also the chair of Trump's Evangelical Advisory Board). They also do not view Christ as the only begotten Son of God, but that we are all gods.

It's heresy.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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RetiredAg said:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:

In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?


In this cult, we are at the center, not the cross. It teaches that winning and material success are signs of righteousness. Even one of the lead peddlers of this said that anyone that tells you to deny yourself is from Satan. They also do not view Christ as the only begotten Son of God, but that we are all gods.

It's heresy.
Like I said, I've been around the movement for years and I've never heard any of that, but ok. Avoid the direct questions.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?

Because they make false predictions and promises in God's name. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a false prophet.

Common example: "If you empty all your bank accounts and send it to our ministry, God will repay you tenfold over what you gave"
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Zobel
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:

In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?


The mistake here is assuming that if God gives us everything for our benefit it will include health, wealth and what will be recognized externally as wisdom.

The health of the kingdom of heaven is a health of the soul. The wealth of the kingdom is in heaven, and isn't measured in dollars. The wisdom of God is knowledge of Christ, who is the only thing we should desire.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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ramblin_ag02 said:

Quote:

In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?

Because they make false predictions and promises in God's name. That's pretty much the textbook definition of a false prophet.

Common example: "If you empty all your bank accounts and send it to our ministry, God will repay you tenfold over what you gave"
I've said that there are some people who actually do this, and I'll join you in criticizing them. But because a few do so,somehow all of them do this.

Those who do so are taking a number of biblical verses and twisting it to benefit themselves:
Quote:

A generous person will prosper; whoever refreshes others will be refreshed.
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"Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. 38 Give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over, will be poured into your lap. For with the measure you use, it will be measured to you."
Just off the top of my head. So again, some are taking principles and twisting it to benefit themselves.


Solo Tetherball Champ
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Quote:

Quote:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:
In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?

The mistake here is assuming that if God gives us everything for our benefit it will include health, wealth and what will be recognized externally as wisdom.

The health of the kingdom of heaven is a health of the soul. The wealth of the kingdom is in heaven, and isn't measured in dollars. The wisdom of God is knowledge of Christ, who is the only thing we should desire.
So, God does not care about our lot in life? He does not care if you are sick, can't make rent, etc? Just admit this and we can move on.
PacifistAg
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Solo Tetherball Champ said:


Quote:

Quote:

Solo Tetherball Champ said:
In what way?

Because their message is that God actually cares about our lot in this life?
Because they claim that God wants us to be "healthy, wealthy, and wise" rather than "poor, sick, and stupid" after we've been saved?
Because they believe the Apostilistic gifts can still manifest?

The mistake here is assuming that if God gives us everything for our benefit it will include health, wealth and what will be recognized externally as wisdom.

The health of the kingdom of heaven is a health of the soul. The wealth of the kingdom is in heaven, and isn't measured in dollars. The wisdom of God is knowledge of Christ, who is the only thing we should desire.
So, God does not care about our lot in life? He does not care if you are sick, can't make rent, etc? Just admit this and we can move on.


Well, considering how many times Christ told people to give away all they had, and the fact that He and His disciples lived essentially homeless lives, I'd say material comfort isn't something that should be our focus. The cult of the prosperity gospel makes material success and "winning" central. It defines righteousness by material gains. Can we be followers of Christ and wealthy? Of course. But it absolutely shouldn't be a priority. It shouldn't be a factor at all in our walk with God.
 
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