Baptism

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Ragoo
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AG
Want to see what everyone thought about the role of Baptism and when is the most proper time for someone to be Baptized. I like most people were Baptized as a baby. Specifically in the Methodist church. A number of years later we began attending a baptist church and I was later re-baptised as a 12 year old. In doing so I took time to understand why baptism and why now, at least according to the Baptist denomination.
What is the theology behind baptising babies?
I learned that baptism was an out word and obedient symbol signifying to the church you had chosen to follow Jesus and in doing so being baptized the way He was baptized by John the Baptist.
swimmerbabe11
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http://catechism.cph.org/en/sacrament-of-holy-baptism.html

Quote:

First
What is Baptism?
Baptism is not just plain water, but it is the water included in God's command and combined with God's word.
Which is that word of God?
Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Matthew: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19)
Second
What benefits does Baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins, rescues from death and the devil, and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words and promises of God declare.
Which are these words and promises of God?
Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Mark: "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16)
Third
How can water do such great things?
Certainly not just water, but the word of God in and with the water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this word of God in the water. For without God's word the water is plain water and no Baptism. But with the word of God it is a Baptism, that is, a life-giving water, rich in grace, and a washing of the new birth in the Holy Spirit, as St. Paul says in Titus, chapter three: "He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by His grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. This is a trustworthy saying." (Titus 3:58)
Fourth
What does such baptizing with water indicate?
It indicates that the Old Adam in us should by daily contrition and repentance be drowned and die with all sins and evil desires, and that a new man should daily emerge and arise to live before God in righteousness and purity forever.
Where is this written?
St. Paul writes in Romans chapter six: "We were therefore buried with Him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life." (Rom. 6:4)



That's the small catechism on baptism.


Regarding infant Baptism;
Quote:

Lutherans believe that the Bible teaches that a person is saved by God's grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ alone.
The Bible tells us that such "faith comes by hearing" (Rom. 10:17). Jesus Himself commands Baptism and tells us that Baptism is water used together with the Word of God (Matt. 28:19-20).
Because of this, we believe that Baptism is one of the miraculous means of grace (another is God's Word as it is written or spoken), through which God creates and/or strengthens the gift of faith in a person's heart (see Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; Gal. 3:26-27; Rom. 6:1-4; Col. 2:11-12; 1 Cor. 12.13).
Terms the Bible uses to talk about the beginning of faith include "conversion" and "regeneration." Although we do not claim to understand fully how this happens, we believe that when an infant is baptized God creates faith in the heart of that infant.
We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6) and that new birth (regeneration) happens in Baptism (John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6). The infant's faith cannot yet, of course, be verbally expressed or articulated by the child, yet it is real and present all the same (see e.g., Acts 2:38-39; Luke 1:15; 2 Tim. 3:15).
The faith of the infant, like the faith of adults, also needs to be fed and nurtured by God's Word (Matt. 28:18-20), or it will die.

Regarding the history of infant baptism
Quote:

Infants are included in " all nations" who are to be baptized (Matt. 28:19). Certainly they were included in Peter's Pentecost exhortation in Acts 2:38, 39: "Repent and be baptized everyone one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. ... The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off for all whom the Lord our God will call."
Whole households, everyone in the family, were baptized in the beginning of New Testament times, which in all probability included infants (Acts 16:15 and 33). [The "household" formula used here by Luke has Old Testament precedent, with special reference also to small children, as for example in 1 Sam. 22:16, 19; see Joachim Jeremias, Infant Baptism in the First Four Centuries, 22-23.]
In Romans 6, the Holy Spirit tells us in the Word that in Baptism we have been united with Jesus' death and resurrectionregenerated, dying to sin and rising to new life. That happens to infants when baptized (Gal. 3:27).
"For as many of you who have been baptized have put on Christ." Baptism through the Word creates the faith necessary to receive salvation for infants. Infants can have faith.
In Mark 10:14 Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these."
The Greek word in this text is "paidia" which means babes in arms. Infants can belong to the kingdom of God.
"From the lips of children and infants, You have ordained praise ..." Psalm 8:2. "Yet You brought me out of the womb, You made me trust in You even at my mother's breast" Psalm 22:9.
From the beginning of New Testament Christianity at Pentecost to our time, unbroken and uninterrupted, the Church has baptized babies. Polycarp (69-155 AD), a disciple of the Apostle John, was baptized as an infant.
Justin Martyr (100-166 AD) of the next generation, about the year 150 AD, states in his Dialog with Trypho The Jew "that Baptism is the circumcision of the New Testament."
Irenaeus (130-200 AD) writes in Against Heresies II 22:4 "that Jesus came to save all through means of Himself all, I say, who through Him are born again to God infants and children, boys and youth, and old men."
Similar expressions are found in succeeding generations by Origen (185-254 AD) and Cyprian (215-258 AD), and at the Council of Carthage in 254 where the 66 bishops stated: "We ought not hinder any person from Baptism and the grace of God ... especially infants ... those newly born."
Origen wrote in his Commentary on Romans 5:9: "For this also it was that the Church had from the Apostles a tradition to give baptism even to infants." Origen also wrote in his Homily on Luke 14: "Infants are to be baptized for the remission of sins."
Cyprian's reply to a bishop who wrote to him regarding the baptism of infants stated: "Should we wait until the 8th day as did the Jews in the circumcision? No, the child should be baptized as soon as it is born."
Augustine (354-430 AD) wrote in De Genesi Ad Literam, 10:39 declared, "The custom of our mother Church in baptizing infants must not be counted needless, nor believed to be other than a tradition of the Apostles."
Augustine further states: "... the whole Church which hastens to baptize infants, because it unhesitatingly believes that otherwise they cannot possibly be vivified in Christ."
In 517 AD, 10 rules of discipline were framed for the Church in Spain. The fifth rule states that "... in case infants were ill ... if they were offered, to baptize them, even though it were the day that they were born...such was to be done." (The History of Baptism by Robert Robinson, London, Thomas Knott, 1790, p.269)
This pattern of baptizing infants remained in Christianity through the Dark and Middle Ages until modern times. In the 1,500 years from the time of Christ to the Protestant Reformation, the only bona fide opponent to infant Baptism was the heretic Tertullian (160-215 AD) who de facto denied original sin.
Then in the 1520s the Christian Church experienced opposition specifically to infant Baptism under the influence of Thomas Muenzer and other fanatics who opposed both civil and religious authority, original sin and human concupiscence.
Thomas' opposition was then embraced by a considerable number of Swiss, German and Dutch Anabaptists. This brought about strong warning and renunciation by the Roman Catholics, Lutherans and Reformed alike.
It was considered a shameless affront to what had been practiced in each generation since Christ's command in the Great Commission (Matt. 28:18-20) to baptize all nations irrespective of age.
Historical excerpts are from "Infant Baptism in Early Church History," by Dr. Dennis Kastens in Issues Etc. Journal, Spring 1997, Vol. 2, No. 3.




The Large Catetchism on Baptism is a work of beauty and clarification, but longer. It does cover both the nature of baptism and the efficacy of infant baptism though.
http://bookofconcord.org/lc-6-baptism.php
NoahAg
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Not sure how they got
Quote:

We believe this because the Bible says that infants can believe (Matt. 18:6)
out of this: "...but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck..."

The passage is talking about having humble, child-like faith. Seems like a stretch to say it means that infants can believe.

And this is just wrong:
Quote:

Baptism through the Word creates the faith necessary to receive salvation for infants. Infants can have faith.
Not to offend my Catholic friends, but personally, I believe baptism is merely an outward expression of your faith (it has no power to create your faith), or your conversion, if you will. There's no saving or magical powers in the water or the process.

(Doh! Posting limit.)

Quote:

well you got the small "c" right. Infant baptism as a means of grace is doctrine and belief as old as the church and practiced since Christ began His ministry.
Did Jesus sprinkle babies?

I don't have anything against sprinkling. It's a cool moment to share with friends and family, and express your faith. But unless that child grows to experience their own moment of accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior, the sprinkling they got as a baby doesn't "save" them.

Do I think babies go to hell when they die? No, that's ridiculous. But at some point in everyone's life (no, I have no idea what age that is. I'm sure it's different for everyone) they reach an age of accountability. I.e., your faith/salvation is between you and God. Others can't save you through ritual.

Makes for cute photos though.
swimmerbabe11
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well you got the small "c" right. Infant baptism as a means of grace is doctrine and belief as old as the church and practiced since Christ began His ministry.
swimmerbabe11
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Would you like to use John the Baptist's recognition of Christ from within the womb as an example that children, even the unborn, can believe?
chuckd
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AG
Baptism is a sign of God's faithfulness in the covenant of grace. The sign should be given to all those whom the promise is given - those who convert and children of believers. It is no different than circumcision in its purpose.
jkag89
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The sacraments of Christian initiation - Baptism from the Compendium of the Catechism of the Catholic Church

Quote:

THE SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

252. What names are given to the first sacrament of initiation?

This sacrament is primarily called Baptism because of the central rite with which it is celebrated. To baptize means to "immerse" in water. The one who is baptized is immersed into the death of Christ and rises with him as a "new creature" (2 Corinthians 5:17). This sacrament is also called the "bath of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5); and it is called "enlightenment" because the baptized becomes "a son of light" (Ephesians 5:8).

253. How is Baptism prefigured in the Old Covenant?

In the Old Covenant Baptism was pre-figured in various ways: water, seen as source of life and of death; in the Ark of Noah, which saved by means of water; in the passing through the Red Sea, which liberated Israel from Egyptian slavery; in the crossing of the Jordan River, that brought Israel into the promised land which is the image of eternal life.

254. Who brought to fulfillment those prefigurations?
All the Old Covenant prefigurations find their fulfillment in Jesus Christ. At the beginning of his public life Jesus had himself baptized by John the Baptist in the Jordan. On the cross, blood and water, signs of Baptism and the Eucharist, flowed from his pierced side. After his Resurrection he gave to his apostles this mission: "Go forth and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matthew 28:19).

255. Starting when and to whom has the Church administered Baptism?
From the day of Pentecost, the Church has administered Baptism to anyone who believes in Jesus Christ.

256. In what does the essential rite of Baptism consist?
The essential rite of this sacrament consists in immersing the candidate in water or pouring water over his or her head while invoking the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

257. Who can receive Baptism?
Every person not yet baptized is able to receive Baptism.

258. Why does the Church baptize infants?

The Church baptizes infants because they are born with original sin. They need to be freed from the power of the Evil One and brought into that realm of freedom which belongs to the children of God.

259. What is required of one who is to be baptized?

Everyone who is to be baptized is required to make a profession of faith. This is done personally in the case of an adult or by the parents and by the Church in the case of infants. Also the godfather or the godmother and the whole ecclesial community share the responsibility for baptismal preparation (catechumenate) as well as for the development and safeguarding of the faith and grace given at baptism.

260. Who can baptize?

The ordinary ministers of Baptism are the bishop and the priest. In the Latin Church the deacon also can baptize. In case of necessity any person can baptize provided he has the intention of doing what the Church does. This is done by pouring water on the head of the candidate while saying the Trinitarian formula for Baptism: "I baptize you in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit".

261. Is Baptism necessary for salvation?

Baptism is necessary for salvation for all those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.

262. Is it possible to be saved without Baptism?
Since Christ died for the salvation of all, those can be saved without Baptism who die for the faith (Baptism of blood). Catechumens and all those who, even without knowing Christ and the Church, still (under the impulse of grace) sincerely seek God and strive to do his will can also be saved without Baptism (Baptism of desire). The Church in her liturgy entrusts children who die without Baptism to the mercy of God.

263. What are the effects of Baptism?

Baptism takes away original sin, all personal sins and all punishment due to sin. It makes the baptized person a participant in the divine life of the Trinity through sanctifying grace, the grace of justification which incorporates one into Christ and into his Church. It gives one a share in the priesthood of Christ and provides the basis for communion with all Christians. It bestows the theological virtues and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. A baptized person belongs forever to Christ. He is marked with the indelible seal of Christ (character).

264. What is the meaning of the Christian name received at Baptism?
The name is important because God knows each of us by name, that is, in our uniqueness as persons. In Baptism a Christian receives his or her own name in the Church. It should preferably be the name of a saint who might offer the baptized a model of sanctity and an assurance of his or her intercession before God.
SoulSlaveAG2005
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AG
Yup. That sums it up!
Ragoo
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AG
258 sounds made up in the context of the others.

An infant has original sin? Outside of explosive dirty diapers to the no way a child in just a few months of infancy has sin.

An infant cannot proclaim Christ as Lord.

How does that make an sense?
swimmerbabe11
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John the Baptist proclaimed Christ from the womb.

Do you believe that sickness and death are a result of sin in the world? If so, why aren't infants immune?
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swimmerbabe11
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I think the depth of recognition was the miracle. One of the coolest things when I was organizing students for life groups was that 3d ultrasounds were relatively new and there were all of these studies coming out showing how much ee underestimate babies ability to hear and even taste, recognize and seemingly have preferences.

Babies are unique from the beginning with their own vices and preferences and wants and cares and fussinesses
Ragoo
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swimmerbabe11 said:

John the Baptist proclaimed Christ from the womb.

Do you believe that sickness and death are a result of sin in the world? If so, why aren't infants immune?
these things are not the results of one's own sin. The person who sins the most does not die sooner. The person who repents the most, or in the Catholic faith the person who repents through a false mediary (that is a different discussion), doesn't live forever.

Sickness and death is a result of Adam and Eve's sin against God and in larger part the great flood of genesis. Prior to which sickness likely didn't exist.

I think infant baptism is, like many things, rooted in tradition and not scripture.
Ragoo
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swimmerbabe11 said:

John the Baptist proclaimed Christ from the womb.

Do you believe that sickness and death are a result of sin in the world? If so, why aren't infants immune?
I don't understand your use of the word proclaim as it relates to a child encased in amniotic fluid.
Zobel
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Anyone who suggests they can understand the mystery of baptism, and consider themselves worthy to be baptized based on this rational belief, they can argue against infant baptism on the ground that the infant doesn't understand.

Anyone who suggests they comprehend the mystery of the Incarnation, how the God who is uncontainable and uncreated took flesh and was made man, an indescribably emptying, they can argue against infant baptism saying that the child can't understand.

Anyone who can say they truly understand the mystery of the Cross, that they know the sacrifice that was offered and can really know the measure of suffering and righteousness there, they can argue that an infant doesn't have sufficient belief in Christ's salvation.
Ragoo
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k2aggie07 said:

Anyone who suggests they can understand the mystery of baptism, and consider themselves worthy to be baptized based on this rational belief, they can argue against infant baptism on the ground that the infant doesn't understand.

Anyone who suggests they comprehend the mystery of the Incarnation, how the God who is uncontainable and uncreated took flesh and was made man, an indescribably emptying, they can argue against infant baptism saying that the child can't understand.

Anyone who can say they truly understand the mystery of the Cross, that they know the sacrifice that was offered and can really know the measure of suffering and righteousness there, they can argue that an infant doesn't have sufficient belief in Christ's salvation.
I don't follow your logic. Wouldn't this immaculate understanding of a human infant render acceptance of salvation pointless?
Zobel
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My point is that God is transcendent. We are saved by union with Him, and part of that union is characterized by understanding. Proverbs says the fear of the lord is the beginning of knowledge, and that the Lord gives wisdom, knowledge, and understanding. The Psalmist asks God to teach him His knowledge. St Paul teaches us that in love we can attain to knowledge of God's mystery - Christ, where all true knowledge is. He gives understanding to us, through grace. Not when we choose, but when He does. We don't understand Him at all except to the extent He chooses to reveal Himself to us.

Understanding, illumination, is a gift to the faithful. Intellectual belief and the Christian virtue of faith aren't the same thing. Baptism is the prerequisite to knowing Christ, the beginning of salvation, not the end. Our knowledge / belief / understanding is not a prerequisite to baptism, any more than an Israelite child needed to understand the covenant with God before entering into it through circumcision.

Romans 8:7-8 tells us that our unpurified mind is hostile to God, and cannot be subject to God, and we cannot please God. Christ tells us we can't see the kingdom unless we're born if the spirit. Ephesians 2:8 makes this abundantly clear - faith comes from God through His grace, and the renewal and life giving waters of baptism precede this, or really, commute this Grace.
Zobel
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AG
Read Matthew 19 carefully.

Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

The kids didn't come by themselves or ask for His blessing. They were brought. In the same way, Orthodox Christians bring the person to be baptized, child or adult -- your sponsor or "God parent" -- and we are presented as children, trusting that He will bless us. We don't understand baptism, we aren't worthy of His indwelling grace or forgiveness.
FTAggies
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Well tradition is rooted in scripture. "Hold fast to the traditions that I tell you"..... 2 Thessalonians 2:15

Anyway I would think it very odd as a "new" Christian in the early first century that my newborn would be allowed to be brought into the old covenant(circumcision) but not the newer "better" covenant under Jesus.
Removed:09182020
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AG
Full immersion as an adult or GTFO of Heaven. /Lingering Church of Christ hangover.
Ags4DaWin
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k2aggie07 said:

Read Matthew 19 carefully.

Then some children were brought to Him so that He might lay His hands on them and pray; and the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

The kids didn't come by themselves or ask for His blessing. They were brought. In the same way, Orthodox Christians bring the person to be baptized, child or adult -- your sponsor or "God parent" -- and we are presented as children, trusting that He will bless us. We don't understand baptism, we aren't worthy of His indwelling grace or forgiveness.


So much here to say. But I will try hard to be brief. The scripture says children. Not babies. Not infants. There is a difference. Also, Jesus did not baptize them. He taught and blessed them. There is a difference.

He even goes so far to say that "such is the kingdom of heaven". If Jesus considered these children sinners in need of baptism he would NOT have referenced them as being of the kingdom of God as no unclean or sinful thing can dwell in the presence of God and cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Therefore we can conclude that Jesus did NOT consider these children sinners and thus NOT in need of baptism as only sinners are in need of baptism.

You have it from Christ himself. Plain as day.

Infants are included in " all nations" who are to be baptized (Matt. 28:19).

Umm no. Nowhere in there is anything stated regarding infant baptism.

Acts 2:38-39 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Once again children, not infants. There is a difference. Also, a more careful reading shows that verse 39 is a reference to the prophecy that Peter spoke to at the beginning of the chapter: the promise of the coming messiah to the Jewish people, and he expounds upon the promise stating that the promise of the messiah and salvation of Christ is a promise made to them, their children, and everyone. The promise being Christ as the messiah giving us access to the atonement.

And the reference to someone's entire house is more a direct inclusion of not only family but also servants. Again nowhere does it directly reference infants nor does it exclude them but by saying that infant baptism is necessary you need to prove your case, which this scripture does not. The usage here is simply an indication of the level of commitment and level of completion an individual during this time had to an act. If a person made their entire house (i.e. the people whose welfare they were responsible for) make a commitment it indicated that this person had a sincerity of purpose toward whatever cause or belief they were undertaking and that they believed it beneficial not only for them but for everyone who they were charge with taking care of.

"Baptism through the Word creates the faith necessary to receive salvation for infants. Infants can have faith."-

this is backwards. In every single instance we read about in the New Testament the desire to be baptized, born from faith in Christ is what leads people to become baptized. Therefore faith comes first. baptism follows to complete the profession of faith in Christ followed by receiving the Holy Spirit. That is the way it has always been done in the Bible. Find me an instance where someone was baptized without first professing faith.
Aggie4Life02
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AG


Zobel
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Are infants not children? Tell me, how old were the children? When does an infant stop being an infant and become a child? The word translated as "little children" is paidion. This word means "a little child, an infant, little one." Aristophanes says the first three stages of life were:

  • Brephos: a newborn
  • Paidion: a child still nursing
  • Paidarion: a child which can walk around and is beginning to grasp vocabulary

So again, how old were these children?

He didn't teach and bless them, He laid His hands on them and prayed for them "and then He departed".

Everyone is in need of baptism, even infants. We are born into sin, Psalm 50 says "I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me." Our fallen nature isn't about individual sins but about the curse of death every human inherits from Adam. We can not conclude what you think, because it would require us to invalidate many scriptures. And of course the kingdom of heaven is for "such as these". He already explained this previously, in Matthew 18. "Unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven." And what did He mean by "like children"? "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Children are humble, and have a simple joy and faith. He's not suggesting we become sinless like children. We don't "become sinless," our sins are forgiven. We become humble, we become pure and simple in our faith, by God's grace.

Your logic belies a fallacy that if a person is without sin, they don't need a savior. This is the error of Pelagius. Even a sinless man, were such a thing possible (it's not) would still need a savior, because Christ was not simply a sinless man but the God-man, and He united deity with human flesh, redeeming all mankind from death in Himself.

A household included everyone. Jewish children were circumcised on the eighth day. Colossians 2:11-12 is one of numerous references that show that the baptism we undergo is a circumcision by God of our souls. Circumcision isn't limited to adults. Just as circumcision was the sign of the covenant between God and Israel, baptism seals us with the receipt of grace to enter into the new covenant, a spiritual circumcision "performed by Christ and not by human hands."

Your mere intellectual belief is the same error in logic I addressed above - that somehow by our meager "belief" or "understanding" we can be worthy of the divine blessing by Christ.

Infant baptism was practiced uniformly, by the entire church, as far back as we have records. The lone ancient dissenter was Tertullian, and he references sponsors. By this very witness we can see that the practice of baptism of infants with sponsors was already in effect (around 200 AD).
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Ragoo
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We are born into sin does not mean we are born with sin but defining that sin is separation from God and earth is that separation.

If we are born with sin then an infant who dies during child birth or before they have achieved an age to believe in Jesus is doomed to separation from God.

I think we must define the purpose of Baptism in order to fully understand why or when it is appropriate for an individual to be baptized. Baptism is not a condition of salvation. You say we all "need" baptism, I don't agree with that.

You mentioned previously that baptism was an act of bringing the infant into the faith. Where in the Bible is faith pushed upon a person? Faith is something an individual must realize/accept on their own.

I was baptized as an infant in the Methodist church, spent 7 years of my youth in the Lutheran church, when through first communion, etc. and then was baptized again at aged 12 in the Baptist church. I did not fully understand what it all ment until I was 12 and made the decision on my own. Maybe that was self maturity and enlightenment but I don't think I would have ever understood staying in the Lutheran church.
jkag89
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JJMt said:

Do you think an adult needs to be rebaptized again if previously sprinkled as an infant?
No. "I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" The Catholic Church's view of baptism is a once-for-all sacrament that washes away original sin, gives sanctifying grace, and imparts a supernatural character upon the soul that makes a person a Christian. An attempt to "redo" a valid baptism would be useless. Even if you have not lived a Christian life until recently, if you were validly baptized then you are a Christian.

Quote:

What if the infant, when it grows to teenage years (or to the age of accountability, whenever that might be), expressly rejects God and Christianity, but then in later years becomes a Christian? Does that person need to be baptized as an adult?

No. "Through Baptism men and women are freed from sin, are reborn as children of God, and, configured to Christ by an indelible character, are incorporated into the Church." This ritual of initiation is thus not only a washing of the body, but a cleansing of the soul that raises people into a relationship with the Divine. IMO one who rejects the Christian faith is free to return to the divine fellowship without having to be baptized again.

Quote:

What if an infant is sprinkled into the Lutheran faith, but then converts to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, or vice versa?

What about adults who were baptized as adults into one faith tradition and then later convert to another?
The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Baptism by other Christian traditions when the proper matter and form are used and when both the baptizing minister and the person being baptized have the proper intention and the minister says, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The minister's intention simply "to baptize" and the recipient's intention (or, if an infant or child, his or her parents' and godparents' intention in his or her name), simply "to be baptized" is sufficient to meet this test, even if none of the parties had a full theological understanding of the sacrament of Baptism.

A question of my own, why did you use the word sprinkling when the sacrament involves infants instead of just using the word baptism?
swimmerbabe11
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If that is the case, who the heck confirmed you and let you take communion? An younger than 12?

Most churches do pretty rigorous training and then a questioning in front of the church and whatnot.
chuckd
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AG
Ragoo said:

We are born into sin does not mean we are born with sin but defining that sin is separation from God and earth is that separation.

If we are born with sin then an infant who dies during child birth or before they have achieved an age to believe in Jesus is doomed to separation from God.

I think we must define the purpose of Baptism in order to fully understand why or when it is appropriate for an individual to be baptized. Baptism is not a condition of salvation. You say we all "need" baptism, I don't agree with that.

You mentioned previously that baptism was an act of bringing the infant into the faith. Where in the Bible is faith pushed upon a person? Faith is something an individual must realize/accept on their own.

I was baptized as an infant in the Methodist church, spent 7 years of my youth in the Lutheran church, when through first communion, etc. and then was baptized again at aged 12 in the Baptist church. I did not fully understand what it all ment until I was 12 and made the decision on my own. Maybe that was self maturity and enlightenment but I don't think I would have ever understood staying in the Lutheran church.
Baptism is a sacrament, a holy sign of the covenant. A covenant God establishes, not man. Those within the covenant receive the sign. This includes believers and their children (Gen. 17). Children are not to be put out of the church until they "fully understand" (what does that mean?). They are within the church from birth. It has been this way since Abraham.

You say you fully understood when you were 12. Fully understood what? Say at 15 you learn something else. Get baptized again? Say at 25 you have an existential experience. Get baptized again?

Making salvation about your faith, understanding, age, etc. will make the sign (baptism) conditional upon these things. Every time your faith or understanding is lacking, you will have to be rebaptized.
chuckd
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AG

Quote:

The Catholic Church recognizes the validity of Baptism by other Christian traditions when the proper matter and form are used and when both the baptizing minister and the person being baptized have the proper intention and the minister says, "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." The minister's intention simply "to baptize" and the recipient's intention (or, if an infant or child, his or her parents' and godparents' intention in his or her name), simply "to be baptized" is sufficient to meet this test, even if none of the parties had a full theological understanding of the sacrament of Baptism.
Reformed theology the same minus the intentions part. How would you even verify that?

As long as baptism is done in the Trinitarian formula, it is valid.
AggieSportsGuy
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AG
Does someone baptized as an infant, child, etc. who doesn't actually believe in Christ and shows no sign of their faith later in life saved?
jkag89
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chuckd said:


Reformed theology the same minus the intentions part. How would you even verify that?

As long as baptism is done in the Trinitarian formula, it is valid.
On the face of it, Mormons use a Trinitarian formula but their view of the Godhead is certainly different than the orthodox/traditional view. In other words, the formula is correct, the intent is not in view of the Catholic Church.
swimmerbabe11
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We (lutherans) do not recognize baptisms from the Mormon church.
7thGenTexan
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AG
Quote:

Children are not to be put out of the church until they "fully understand" (what does that mean?). They are within the church from birth. It has been this way since Abraham.


The programming certainly starts way before 12 anyway.
jkag89
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I did not believe otherwise. I was only trying to illustrate, probably poorly, where the intent part of the question comes into play.
swimmerbabe11
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JJMt said:

You guys make some persuasive arguments. Do you think an adult needs to be rebaptized again if previously sprinkled as an infant?
We actually pour or immerse usually fyi.The LCMS recognizes and accepts the validity of baptisms properly administered (i.e., using water in any quantity and/or mode, together with the Trinitarian invocation instituted by Christ, Matt. 28:19) in all Christian churches.

What if the infant, when it grows to teenage years (or to the age of accountability, whenever that might be), expressly rejects God and Christianity, but then in later years becomes a Christian? Does that person need to be baptized as an adult? No, we believe in one baptism for the remission of sins. One can't be re-circumsized, die over and over again, etc. If someone goes through apostasy and wants to come back to the church, they only must confess and repent, then they will receive absolution and take communion (assuming they have been educated and whatnot).


What if an infant is sprinkled into the Lutheran faith, but then converts to Roman Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy, or vice versa? If vice versa, they would be welcomed into our church with open arms, no re-baptism needed. Mormons and some other non-trinitarian sects would not. My understanding is RCC would not ask re-baptism and EO might depending on priest or parish.


What about adults who were baptized as adults into one faith tradition and then later convert to another?
I'm not sure how this question isn't redundant? Even if you are baptized a baptist who believe in baptism as a non-supernatural event, an expression of faith...as long as they use water and the word of God (mentioned in my first answer), that is acceptable. Baptism isn't something *we* do. It is something God does.


I think this is one item where the RCC, EO, and Lutheran traditions will all be pretty much on the same page.
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