wbt has a vested interest (believe he's in weapons industry in some way) in the conflict continuing and has completely embraced moral relativism on this issue. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with him, as he believes all Israeli abuses are somehow justified because a war that happened 50 years ago.AggieRain said:
With all due respect, the Palestinian/Israel conflict is not not grounded in religious conflict, and Palestinians should not be lumped into the jihadist camp. This conflict is far from one-sided, and its nature is due to political boundaries imposed on a region post-WWII.
I have a vested interest in the nation of Israel being allowed to exist.Quote:
wbt has a vested interest (believe he's in weapons industry in some way) in the conflict continuing...
I don't know what that means. You keep using it but I don't think it means anything.Quote:
... and has completely embraced moral relativism on this issue.
Well, 70 years ago, 50 years ago, 44 years ago, 35 years ago, 30 years ago, 17 years ago, 9 years ago, 5 years ago and 3 years ago. Any one of which, had the Israelis lost, would have led to the slaughter of every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel.Quote:
It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion with him, as he believes all Israeli abuses are somehow justified because a war that happened 50 years ago.
You have a financial interest in the conflict continuing. You don't really care about Israel. If you did, you'd want peace. But you back a course that is guaranteed to continue the conflict.Quote:
I have a vested interest in the nation of Israel being allowed to exist.
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.Quote:
I don't know what that means. You keep using it but I don't think it means anything.
Continuing w/ this myth doesn't make it true.Quote:
Well, 70 years ago, 50 years ago, 44 years ago, 35 years ago, 30 years ago, 17 years ago, 9 years ago, 5 years ago and 3 years ago. Any one of which, had the Israelis lost, would have led to the slaughter of every Jewish man, woman and child in Israel.
Yep. And since one side has bigger guns, their actions are justified in his view. It's a vile, and antichrist, position.Dr. Watson said:
So your response to those who lump all Jews together is to lump all of Islam into the "bad guy"?
yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
Do you see how the Prime Minister immediately calling for a pardon after one of his soldiers murders a man in cold blood may be detrimental to any semblance of a peace process? Or the fact that IDF soldiers shot tear gas at nonviolent protesters that were protesting illegal outposts in the West Bank (illegal under Israeli law, not just international law)? Do you see Israel in bearing any blame for the current state of the conflict?wbt5845 said:yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
How is it hateful? He's absolutely made the "might makes right" argument before. When called on it, he never denied doing so. "Might makes right" is textbook moral relativism. It is also antichrist, in that it is against the way of Christ. It's just naming it what it really is.Create Account said:RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
I know you are passionate about this subject, but you can use a more loving approach.RetiredAg said:How is it hateful? He's absolutely made the "might makes right" argument before. When called on it, he never denied doing so. "Might makes right" is textbook moral relativism. It is also antichrist, in that it is against the way of Christ. It's just naming it what it really is.Create Account said:RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
Did you see how an Israeli court, with three Jewish judges, convicted a Jewish Israeli citizen of killing an Arab "Palestinian"? You walk right by the giant fact that justice was served against a Jew by Jews for killing an Arab to rail against the PM? Who is truly blinded to the words of Christ here?RetiredAg said:Do you see how the Prime Minister immediately calling for a pardon after one of his soldiers murders a man in cold blood may be detrimental to any semblance of a peace process? Or the fact that IDF soldiers shot tear gas at nonviolent protesters that were protesting illegal outposts in the West Bank (illegal under Israeli law, not just international law)? Do you see Israel in bearing any blame for the current state of the conflict?wbt5845 said:yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
I'm not ignoring any of that. But don't you think it's a pretty big deal when the PM immediately calls for a pardon?wbt5845 said:Did you see how an Israeli court, with three Jewish judges, convicted a Jewish Israeli citizen of killing an Arab "Palestinian"? You walk right by the giant fact that justice was served against a Jew by Jews for killing an Arab to rail against the PM? Who is truly blinded to the words of Christ here?RetiredAg said:Do you see how the Prime Minister immediately calling for a pardon after one of his soldiers murders a man in cold blood may be detrimental to any semblance of a peace process? Or the fact that IDF soldiers shot tear gas at nonviolent protesters that were protesting illegal outposts in the West Bank (illegal under Israeli law, not just international law)? Do you see Israel in bearing any blame for the current state of the conflict?wbt5845 said:yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
It's "unloving" to call moral relativism "antichrist"?Create Account said:I know you are passionate about this subject, but you can use a more loving approach.RetiredAg said:How is it hateful? He's absolutely made the "might makes right" argument before. When called on it, he never denied doing so. "Might makes right" is textbook moral relativism. It is also antichrist, in that it is against the way of Christ. It's just naming it what it really is.Create Account said:RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
Just an observation. I think it would go further if you changed your tone.RetiredAg said:It's "unloving" to call moral relativism "antichrist"?Create Account said:I know you are passionate about this subject, but you can use a more loving approach.RetiredAg said:How is it hateful? He's absolutely made the "might makes right" argument before. When called on it, he never denied doing so. "Might makes right" is textbook moral relativism. It is also antichrist, in that it is against the way of Christ. It's just naming it what it really is.Create Account said:RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
I think it extremely helpful to the peace process that a Jewish court with Jewish judge convicted a Jew of killing an Arab. How can you ignore what a huge deal that is to focus on the PM trying to score political points?RetiredAg said:I'm not ignoring any of that. But don't you think it's a pretty big deal when the PM immediately calls for a pardon?wbt5845 said:Did you see how an Israeli court, with three Jewish judges, convicted a Jewish Israeli citizen of killing an Arab "Palestinian"? You walk right by the giant fact that justice was served against a Jew by Jews for killing an Arab to rail against the PM? Who is truly blinded to the words of Christ here?RetiredAg said:Do you see how the Prime Minister immediately calling for a pardon after one of his soldiers murders a man in cold blood may be detrimental to any semblance of a peace process? Or the fact that IDF soldiers shot tear gas at nonviolent protesters that were protesting illegal outposts in the West Bank (illegal under Israeli law, not just international law)? Do you see Israel in bearing any blame for the current state of the conflict?wbt5845 said:yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
Which words of Christ am I blinded to? I simply asked if you think that Netanyahu's call for a pardon is helpful to the peace process. I've not embraced the antichrist position of moral relativism.
Fair enough. I've long said that my tone can be a blind spot, so I appreciate you pointing it out to me. I will try to soften it while continuing to truthfully name what goes against Christ.Create Account said:Just an observation. I think it would go further if you changed your tone.RetiredAg said:It's "unloving" to call moral relativism "antichrist"?Create Account said:I know you are passionate about this subject, but you can use a more loving approach.RetiredAg said:How is it hateful? He's absolutely made the "might makes right" argument before. When called on it, he never denied doing so. "Might makes right" is textbook moral relativism. It is also antichrist, in that it is against the way of Christ. It's just naming it what it really is.Create Account said:RetiredAg, I appreciate your views on this subject and have read your stuff in the past, but this is really hateful. You can disagree with a person without this kind of language.Quote:
You have repeatedly used the "might makes right" argument on this issue. That is textbook moral relativism. It is antichrist.
I'm not ignoring that. But the conviction was almost immediately overshadowed by Netanyahu's call for a pardon. You seem to be ignoring that.wbt5845 said:I think it extremely helpful to the peace process that a Jewish court with Jewish judge convicted a Jew of killing an Arab. How can you ignore what a huge deal that is to focus on the PM trying to score political points?RetiredAg said:I'm not ignoring any of that. But don't you think it's a pretty big deal when the PM immediately calls for a pardon?wbt5845 said:Did you see how an Israeli court, with three Jewish judges, convicted a Jewish Israeli citizen of killing an Arab "Palestinian"? You walk right by the giant fact that justice was served against a Jew by Jews for killing an Arab to rail against the PM? Who is truly blinded to the words of Christ here?RetiredAg said:Do you see how the Prime Minister immediately calling for a pardon after one of his soldiers murders a man in cold blood may be detrimental to any semblance of a peace process? Or the fact that IDF soldiers shot tear gas at nonviolent protesters that were protesting illegal outposts in the West Bank (illegal under Israeli law, not just international law)? Do you see Israel in bearing any blame for the current state of the conflict?wbt5845 said:yesRetiredAg said:
wbt,
Let me ask you this. Do you support the conviction of Elor Azaria?
Which words of Christ am I blinded to? I simply asked if you think that Netanyahu's call for a pardon is helpful to the peace process. I've not embraced the antichrist position of moral relativism.
You are right. As pointed out above, my tone has been harsh today. I'm not sure why.AstroAg17 said:
Your first post seems like a massive ad hominem, which I think is unusual for you. Him being in the weapons industry doesn't invalidate his opinion or preclude him from being logical.
Quote:
Your first post seems like a massive ad hominem, which I think is unusual for you. Him being in the weapons industry doesn't invalidate his opinion or preclude him from being logical.
Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
BusterAg said:Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
Israel is far, far from blameless here. But solving this with violence is not going to work. That is why a lot of the rest of the world falls where they do on their opinion of the issue.
This is the part of your story that provides perspective that I have not seen elsewhere.RetiredAg said:
I was also surprised at the sheer number of nonviolence movements, whether spearheaded by Muslims or Christians, in Hebron alone. What's really interesting is to hear the perspective of Palestinian Christians vs American Christians on this topic.
Um, follow international law?Dr. Watson said:BusterAg said:Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
Israel is far, far from blameless here. But solving this with violence is not going to work. That is why a lot of the rest of the world falls where they do on their opinion of the issue.
And what about Israel? What do they need to do?
I would say that's the image of the average Palestinian here in the US, but from what I've seen, that's not necessarily the case elsewhere.Quote:
Right now, the image of the average Palestinian is one that quietly approves of the violence. If that is not fact, it needs to be heard.
I am suspect about that, though.
If they did, that would improve things dramatically, but they refuse to stop settlement expansion, much less remove the existing settlements, which violate international law. They continue to engage in the unlawful transfer of prisoners in contradiction to international law. And these are international laws that they've signed on to. But the settlements are the major issue, and we see how a large number of Americans began hyperventilating with the UN resolution that condemned the settlements.BusterAg said:Um, follow international law?Dr. Watson said:BusterAg said:Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
Israel is far, far from blameless here. But solving this with violence is not going to work. That is why a lot of the rest of the world falls where they do on their opinion of the issue.
And what about Israel? What do they need to do?
Obviously I condemn all violence. That said, do you hold this same position with the Palestinians? Do you fault them for protecting themselves from the violence perpetrated by Israel?Quote:
I won't fault them for protecting themselves from the violence.
BusterAg said:Um, follow international law?Dr. Watson said:BusterAg said:Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
Israel is far, far from blameless here. But solving this with violence is not going to work. That is why a lot of the rest of the world falls where they do on their opinion of the issue.
And what about Israel? What do they need to do?
I won't fault them for protecting themselves from the violence.
Every single Palestinian we met with pointed to the settlements as the major issue. Nobody cited religion. It was always the settlements. Even the Israeli peace activists, to a man, pointed to the settlements as the major obstacle. Any peace process that doesn't involve removal of the settlements will be doomed for failure.Dr. Watson said:BusterAg said:Um, follow international law?Dr. Watson said:BusterAg said:Nothing justifies the violence. Nothing. "Far too often" is letting them off too lightly. Stop trying to kill people. Period.RetiredAg said:
While they far too often resort to violence, I also found the Palestinian people to be some of the kindest and most hospitable people I've ever met.
Israel is far, far from blameless here. But solving this with violence is not going to work. That is why a lot of the rest of the world falls where they do on their opinion of the issue.
And what about Israel? What do they need to do?
I won't fault them for protecting themselves from the violence.
So you think the settlements have to go?
