Question- Where did the church go wrong- off the tracks- Great Apostate?

3,163 Views | 43 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by FTACo88-FDT24dad
booboo91
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Started a new thread. Question- when did The Great Apostasy happen? Apostate is a term used by some religious groups to describe the perceived fallen state of traditional Christianity, especially the Roman Catholic Church.

To clarify- when did the teaching/doctrine change? Why did the change happen? What is the evidence?
Note: This is not about bad actions bishops/priests behaving badly.We agree and can easily point to this in my church as well as other churches.

Ready for those who say Roman Emperor Constantine who converted in 312 AD made everything go wrong. We have all the writings of the church fathers/ didache before Constantine came into power.

Constantine making Christianity officially mainstream was huge moment in history of church. Things changed- churches were built, greater acceptance, but teaching did not.
PacifistAg
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AG
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinian_shift

Martin Q. Blank
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When the pope stopped being primus inter pares.
booboo91
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RetiredAg said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinian_shift


I Read it- where specifically was the doctrine change? what were we(Christians) doing before Constantine for the first 300 years and what were we doing differently after?

We both agree- Emperor Constantine accepting the faith- was huge- lots of change. Christianity became much main stream (although they were roughly 20% of the population and rapidly growing).
Jim Hogg is angry
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AG
According to Jude, there was already rampant apostasy (especially Gnosticism). This epistle was written only about three decades after the ordination of the New Testament Church.

The end times though will culminate with even greater apostasy and deception, namely in the form of ecumenicism.
booboo91
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Martin Q. Blank said:

When the pope stopped being primus inter pares.
When would that be? Details & Specifics.

where did the pope act alone?

Also- not everyone will agree. Disciples did not agree with Jesus (See Disciples walk off John 6- Eat his body- favorite Catholic verse- Eucharist), Christians did not agree with Apostles- Judaizers.

Christians did not with numerous councils- see countless heresies- Arianism.

booboo91
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TampaBayAg said:

According to Jude, there was already rampant apostasy (especially Gnosticism). This epistle was written only about three decades after the ordination of the New Testament Church.

The end times though will culminate with even greater apostasy and deception, namely in the form of ecumenicism.
Agree that from the very beginning- the church has been battling incorrect teachings.

Catholic- would point out to the authority Jesus gave his Apostles given (church).

Question- why were the Apostles correct and the Judiaziers wrong? And to the point you made- why was Gnostics wrong and the church correct?
ramblin_ag02
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AG
The "Great Apostasy" started when humans murdered Christ. It hasn't slowed up since
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BusterAg
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AG
My opinion is that "perfect theology" has largely taken the place of strict adherence to the law that Jesus taught we should be vigilant of.

Whether or not you believe that the Eucharist is symbolic of Jesus, is actually Jesus in spirit but not physically, or is miraculously transfigured to Jesus in your mouth might make a difference in how you try to personalize a transcendent God.

However, you opinion won't impact your approach to the "weighty" matters of Christianity and holiness, like justice, mercy and faithfulness.

It doesn't matter if you have the correct conception of the trinity in you mind if you are filling yourself with evil behaviors and desires.

Yes, there are probably some theological teachings that would be very harmful. The gnostics believed that your spirit was separate from you body, and it was your special knowledge of Jesus that saved you, so it didn't matter what kind of evil you did with your body. All you needed to get that special knowledge was to donate enough money to the cause. No bueno here. The Scientologists copied this model pretty successfully.

But, going back and reading Jesus's teachings, he seems to emphasize the need for the belief that he is the Son of God, and that mercy and love are the most important things.
Solo Tetherball Champ
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Quote:

The "Great Apostasy" started when humans murdered Christ in the garden. It hasn't slowed up since


FIFY
AgLiving06
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RetiredAg said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinian_shift



So the belief that Jesus had two wills (divine and human) is heresy?
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
Perhaps more importantly, who had the authority to determine what is and isn't orthodox and upon what basis? This is especially interesting if one considers any heresies that were defined prior to the determination of the canon of Scripture....
Zobel
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AG
It's a false dichotomy. True Theology comes from God. One can only truly theologize from experience and from within the Church.

St Gregory said "Discussion of theology is not for everyone, I tell you, not for everyone--it is no such inexpensive or effortless pursuit. Nor, I would add, is it for every occasion, or every audience; neither are all its aspects open to inquiry. It must be reserved for certain occasions, for certain audiences, and certain limits must be observed. It is not for all people, but only for those who have been tested and have found a sound footing in study, and, more importantly, have undergone, or at the very least are undergoing, purification of body and soul. For one who is not pure to lay hold of pure things is dangerous, just as it is for weak eyes to look at the sun's brightness."

There is no separation between true theology and true Christianity.
94chem
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When Satan decided he wanted to be God.
94chem
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...or maybe when ibmag says it did...
Win At Life
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AG
IMO it started almost from the beginning. That's why the Apostles were having to write letters to churches they founded. Because they were already going off into error while the Apostles were still alive. The history of scripture teaches that mankind always departs from God's Word within one generation and there is only a remnant who remain faithful.

However, one of the greatest offshoots into error occurred after the Bar Kokhba revolt in AD 135 when all the Jews kicked the Yeshua Mashiach believers out of their synagogues (not the other way around).

Split of early Christianity and Judaism

Without the stead-fast devotion to the Torah (even a misguided one), the ever-increasingly gentile church had no anchor against change, Greek philosophy and pagan influences after that. The solution is to get back into the synagogues on the Sabbath and learn the Torah of Moses, just as the Apostles stated in Acts 15:21.
BusterAg
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My point is this: when we have gotten to a phase where discussing the esoteric specifics of theology are a more important aspect of our walk with Jesus than the implementation of Jesus's values and teachings into our daily walk, we are practicing a form of idolatry, in much the same way as the 1st century Pharisees.

I am not saying that the pursuit of an understanding of God is fruitless. Far from it. It has a ton of value. But, it is not the most important thing about being a Christian. Trying to be like Christ is.
Zobel
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Absolutely. St Maximos says:

Unless curbed by the fear of God that accompanies the practice of the virtues, spiritual knowledge leads to vanity.... But when his practice of the virtues increases concomitantly with his longing for God, and he does not arrogate to himself more spiritual knowledge than is needed for the task in hand, then he is made humble...

Spiritual knowledge is imparted by God for the task at hand. My task at hand is not to accumulate or distill knowledge but to seek union with Him. Not many people's task is to teach or gather knowledge. Probably an indictment of me.
ramblin_ag02
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Quote:

Spiritual knowledge is imparted by God for the task at hand. My task at hand is not to accumulate or distill knowledge but to seek union with Him. Not many people's task is to teach or gather knowledge. Probably an indictment of me.

For someone who isn't called to distilling knowledge or teaching, you are incrediby well-read, well spoken, and communicate effectively. You may want to pray a little bit more about why God gave you those gifts.
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Zobel
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AG
Google-fu and a wasted youth leading to fast typing skills aren't the same as knowledge and virtue.
Martin Q. Blank
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booboo91 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

When the pope stopped being primus inter pares.
When would that be? Details & Specifics.

where did the pope act alone?

Also- not everyone will agree. Disciples did not agree with Jesus (See Disciples walk off John 6- Eat his body- favorite Catholic verse- Eucharist), Christians did not agree with Apostles- Judaizers.

Christians did not with numerous councils- see countless heresies- Arianism.
Well there was a time when there were three popes (14th century?). East and West are divided over the pope claiming superiority over councils. Eastern churches, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc. all have primus inter pares.
AgLiving06
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booboo91 said:

Martin Q. Blank said:

When the pope stopped being primus inter pares.
When would that be? Details & Specifics.

where did the pope act alone?

Also- not everyone will agree. Disciples did not agree with Jesus (See Disciples walk off John 6- Eat his body- favorite Catholic verse- Eucharist), Christians did not agree with Apostles- Judaizers.

Christians did not with numerous councils- see countless heresies- Arianism.



Are you really going to ask where the Pope acted alone?

How many discussions on the Filioque should we have?
booboo91
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BusterAg said:

My opinion is that "perfect theology" has largely taken the place of strict adherence to the law that Jesus taught we should be vigilant of.

Whether or not you believe that the Eucharist is symbolic of Jesus, is actually Jesus in spirit but not physically, or is miraculously transfigured to Jesus in your mouth might make a difference in how you try to personalize a transcendent God.

However, you opinion won't impact your approach to the "weighty" matters of Christianity and holiness, like justice, mercy and faithfulness.

It doesn't matter if you have the correct conception of the trinity in you mind if you are filling yourself with evil behaviors and desires.

Yes, there are probably some theological teachings that would be very harmful.
The gnostics believed that your spirit was separate from you body, and it was your special knowledge of Jesus that saved you, so it didn't matter what kind of evil you did with your body. All you needed to get that special knowledge was to donate enough money to the cause. No bueno here. The Scientologists copied this model pretty successfully.

But, going back and reading Jesus's teachings, he seems to emphasize the need for the belief that he is the Son of God, and that mercy and love are the most important things.
Buster,

Good comments, agree with what you said:.

#1 At very basic and simple level-Jesus calls us to love, faith- Protestant's & Catholics both can observe this.

#2 At some point- incorrect teaching can be very harmful. This is where the fullness of Truth becomes important. I find it interesting that St. Paul went so agressively after Judiaziers, and also the seriousness of the Eucharist- referenced in bible, made much clearer from Didache and other writtings of the early church fathers.
booboo91
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Martin Q. Blank said:


Well there was a time when there were three popes (14th century?). East and West are divided over the pope claiming superiority over councils. Eastern churches, Anglican, Presbyterian, etc. all have primus inter pares.
Avignon Papacy- 1309- 1377 - Popes moved to France from Rome (Rome was not a nice place at the time,not stable and France was much nicer). However the main factor was polical power struggle with local kings.

Late thirteenth-century Christendom had witnessed a titanic struggle of egos and wills between King Philip IV, "the Fair," of France (r. 12851314) and Pope Boniface VIII (r. 12941303). Philip and the Boniface clashed over the authority of the pope in France, primarily especially over the raising and spending of clerical taxes. Philip used money raised for Church expenses to finance his personal wars and Boniface responded with a series of biting pronouncements, including a papal bull entitled Ausculta fili, or "Listen, son!" Philip responded by arresting the papal legate and Boniface threatened the king with excommunication.

St.Catherine- a woman, convinced the pope to move back to Rome. Catholic Answers- St. Catherine- Avignon Papcy
booboo91
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AgLiving06 said:





Are you really going to ask where the Pope acted alone?

How many discussions on the Filioque should we have?
So you believe ALL the bishops- East and West were against the pope. and the pope decided alone on the Filioque? Answer- nope,

What we see in history of the church is power struggles (kings/ emperors vs the church), people not wanting to obey or incorrect teaching/doctrine. To add to the complications we always will have failed men in charge of the church- bad popes,bishops, priests.

Read the avignon papacy- it was a power struggle. See Henry the 8th vs Catholic church- it was a power struggle (Henry wanted to do what he wanted to do- this is easy one to see Henry was wrong)

Great Schism- Simplistically it was the Bishops in the East (constantinople political power) vs. Bishops in the West (Rome- political Power). Think of USA- Civl War North vs South

Zobel
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AG
For the umpteenth time, you may be willing to insult your theological college by saying the schism had no real basis other than politics, but I won't. I don't think St Photios, St Mark of Ephesus, and all the rest were driven by politics when they rejected the Filioque.

Besides, Rome vs Constantinople politics doesn't do anything to address the motivations of the rest of Christendom that doesn't use the Filioque.

Besides, you're ducking the question. The creed was established by a council which forbade a change. The pope changed it centuries later unilaterally. So, to answer the OP, of course Rome thinks the Pope can change that work of a council. If they don't believe this, the pope has helpfully prescribed an anathema against them.
RAB91
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94chem said:

...or maybe when ibmag says it did...
There's a name we haven't heard in a while. When I read the OP, mormonism is what I initially thought of. What other religions other than them believe in a great (or complete) apostasy?
AgLiving06
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booboo91 said:

AgLiving06 said:





Are you really going to ask where the Pope acted alone?

How many discussions on the Filioque should we have?
So you believe ALL the bishops- East and West were against the pope. and the pope decided alone on the Filioque? Answer- nope,

What we see in history of the church is power struggles (kings/ emperors vs the church), people not wanting to obey or incorrect teaching/doctrine. To add to the complications we always will have failed men in charge of the church- bad popes,bishops, priests.

Read the avignon papacy- it was a power struggle. See Henry the 8th vs Catholic church- it was a power struggle (Henry wanted to do what he wanted to do- this is easy one to see Henry was wrong)

Great Schism- Simplistically it was the Bishops in the East (constantinople political power) vs. Bishops in the West (Rome- political Power). Think of USA- Civl War North vs South



As K2 said, you avoided the question...but your own answer is kind of odd.

Were all the bishops against the Pope? No and it's quite clear that many people worked hard to salvage the relationship.

Is that relevant at all? Also no.

In the end, it's not about what the Pope believed or what the other Bishops believed. It was about what the ecumenical councils debated and agreed was from God.
booboo91
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k2aggie07 said:

For the umpteenth time, you may be willing to insult your theological college by saying the schism had no real basis other than politics, but I won't. I don't think St Photios, St Mark of Ephesus, and all the rest were driven by politics when they rejected the Filioque.

Besides, Rome vs Constantinople politics doesn't do anything to address the motivations of the rest of Christendom that doesn't use the Filioque.

Besides, you're ducking the question. The creed was established by a council which forbade a change. The pope changed it centuries later unilaterally. So, to answer the OP, of course Rome thinks the Pope can change that work of a council. If they don't believe this, the pope has helpfully prescribed an anathema against them.
1) The schism is complex, there are multiple reasons for it occuring. I agree with you that many in the east disagreed with wording, they truly in their heart disagreed. But the underling issue was politics 70-90% Constantinople vs Rome. East Vs. West. What is funny is you have said the same thing- that the West (Protestants and Catholics) are closer than the East (Orthodox) and Catholics due to our cultures. My 2 cents- this is stubborn men not wanting to get along- this issue can be resolved if they want to- it is symantics. We All agree everything comes from the Father!

2) Please show me the evidence the pope acted alone! Show me where all the bishops said NO and the pope said yes. Your wrong, simply put the bishops of the West agreed with the Pope and Bishops of the East did not.

3) Also- see Catholic answers comments on the council- "Edicts of an ecumenical council are binding on Christians, but they are not binding on another ecumenical council unless they are pronouncing a matter of faith or morals. Later ecumenical councils can revise or modify disciplinary policies of their predecessors. Since the prohibition on making a new creed was a disciplinary matter, it could be changed by later ecumenical councils."

Catholic Answers- Altering the Creed

Zobel
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AG
You don't think the creed is a matter of faith?

Which council changed the creed?

And no. when I said that Catholics and Protestants were closer than orthodox I was talking about matters of faith. Protestant soteriology, etc is inherited from Rome, and innovated from there. For example almost all Protestants use the Filioque. I'm not talking about culture, because culture doesn't really matter when we're talking about faith.
booboo91
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AgLiving06 said:




As K2 said, you avoided the question...but your own answer is kind of odd.

Were all the bishops against the Pope? No and it's quite clear that many people worked hard to salvage the relationship.

Is that relevant at all? Also no.

In the end, it's not about what the Pope believed or what the other Bishops believed. It was about what the ecumenical councils debated and agreed was from God.
It is relevant- because your claim is absolutely false, the Pope Did NOT act alone.

The truth is the pope did not act alone. the East did not agree, tensions were high. Men were angry with one another.

I will acknowledge the West could of done more to salvage the relationship. Done a better job with the politics, handling the situation. Note: the blame is not all on West. The East also had stubborn men and still do. See your recent conference in July 2016- when so many stubborn men did not show up.
booboo91
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k2aggie07 said:

You don't think the creed is a matter of faith?

Which council changed the creed?

And no. when I said that Catholics and Protestants were closer than orthodox I was talking about matters of faith. Protestant soteriology, etc is inherited from Rome, and innovated from there. For example almost all Protestants use the Filioque. I'm not talking about culture, because culture doesn't really matter when we're talking about faith.
1) Don't understand your point. Yes the creed is a matter of faith. Read the article and respond.

2) I totally disagree that Protestants are closer on matters of faith. We agree on Sacraments, Eucharist, Communion of saints. And yet we disagree with symantics of 3 words "and the son" and the first among equals- pope.

I gotta go to Mass and teach CCE (just call me St. Booboo)
Zobel
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AG
For one, to the OP's question, Eugenius IV issued the bull Etsi non dubitemus, which says the pope has superiority over the councils. Question closed, at least for Roman Catholics. I have tried to find a translation or even latin version of it, but I can't. So, going off of what I can find people say it says -- not much to go on.

For booboo -- this really shows the big difference in our concepts of Truth and the role of councils, bishops, and what you term the magisterium.

The councils didn't write doctrine or create our faith. Our faith existed, the Apostles delivered it, and the councils defended it. They didn't improve, correct, add, etc. The faith is not subject to a majority or a vote. It simply is. The Church relies on the grace and guidance of the Holy Spirit to defend her. This is shown by consensus, not dictate from an office (whether that office is that of the Popes, or councils, etc). The consensus of the faith doesn't include the filioque. None of the Fathers used that creed. None of them write of the holy spirit in that way.

Second, Pavia Siena Basel Ferrara Florence was hardly ecumenical. It was not convened to defend against heresy, it was convened for political purposes to unite both internally (Huss wars) and externally (against Islam).

Not all of the churches were represented. Moldovia's bishop was deposed for leaving to go to Florence and they elevated another Metropolitan. Isodore represented Russia as a political appointee (basically forced on the Russians), but left as a Russian bishop and returned as a Roman Cardinal. The union was immediately rejected by the Russian bishops. Oops.

Don't forget, it wasn't just the Russians and Greeks at Florence. The Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopians, Coptic Christians, Armenians, etc were there. None accepted union with Rome on the terms Pope Eugenius presented (i.e. Submission to absolute authority).

It wasn't a "real" council. The money for the eastern bishops for their living expenses came from Florence, to Rome -- and the Pope withheld it for months at a time. The Emperor refused to leave the council until an agreement had been made because he wanted military aid. He placed limits on what his bishops could and couldn't say or debate. The list of who among the eastern delegation was allowed to vote on certain issues was changed from time to time throughout the council. The western bishops and the eastern bishops (St Mark especially) debated but there was no ground gained. Then, when Patriarch Joseph II died (at Florence) the eastern bishops said they couldn't hold to it without an eastern synod, because they had no authorized representative for Constantinople. (Much like St Maximos records the papal legates telling the Eastern reps at another time). The Eastern church didn't accept it, so the union never existed.

Look at it this way. Old councils were called (both by emperors and Popes) but the Council's ruling was what was supreme. Pope Eugene's bull made Council's non-authoritative, because only the Pope's ruling mattered. No ecumenical council can possibly happen under this structure, because it won't be a council...just an advisory committee.
booboo91
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k2aggie07 said:

The councils didn't write doctrine or create our faith. Our faith existed, the Apostles delivered it, and the councils defended it. They didn't improve, correct, add, etc.
Agree the faith/truth has always existed, but the church has had to clarify it over and over. Example- Why do we not just use the Apostles Creed- why was the Nicaean Creed created? Answer- to clarify and add more details on the nature of Jesus, which the Apostles creed does not include.
Quote:

The Church relies on the grace and guidance of the Holy Spirit to defend her. This is shown by consensus, not dictate from an office (whether that office is that of the Popes, or councils, etc).
Agreed Holy Spirit guides the church. I asked this question earlier- weeks ago- what is consensus? - 51% (simple majority, 75%?)- you would not answer.
Quote:

The consensus of the faith doesn't include the filioque. None of the Fathers used that creed. None of them write of the holy spirit in that way.
None! Better dial that back a bit to Some. We see the Church is having a debate about the Mystery of the Trinity- and None used that wording? Sorry you are wrong. We see it happened in 381 AD. See below - on how the "And the Son" was added.

The creedal citation referenced actually appears in the Creed of the Council of Constantinople (381). The Creed of the Council of Nicaea (325) ended, "And in the Holy Spirit."
At that time, however, a group called the Pneumatomachi (Combators of the Spirit) denied the divinity of the Holy Spirit, and consequently the Holy Trinity. In response, the Council of Constantinople (381) affirmed the Creed of Nicaea and added the last section, which clarified the role of the Holy Spirit. In the original Greek text, this last section reads, "And in the Holy Spirit the Lord and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified..." Thus, the Creed we profess at Mass was actually promulgated by the Council of Constantinople.

The Creed was later translated into Latin with the addition, "who proceeds from the Father and the Son" (filioque). This filioque clause first appeared in the translation issued by the Council of Toledo, Spain, in 589. During the Carolingian Dynasty, Charlemagne petitioned Pope Leo III at the Synod of Aachen (809) to have the filioque clause accepted universally. The pope declined, hesitating to add anything, however appropriate, to the official text of a conciliar creed. Several Church fathers argued that the meaning of the filioque clause was no different from the meaning of the succinct teaching, "Father through the Son."

Nevertheless, the filioque clause was added to the creed recited in the Roman Mass (Latin Rite) by Pope Benedict VIII (1024), but was not used in the liturgy of the Eastern Rites

Fr. Saunders- Nicean Creed- Filioque
Zobel
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AG
You need to endeavor to read less biased sources. It was absolutely not part of the original translation into Latin. It was used at Toledo and repudiated over and over and over again, in many cases by the popes themselves.

Kind of amusing, some of the Frankish supporters actually had it backwards and accused the non-Filioque side of removing it from the original creed.

Let's list off some Roman Popes who didn't use it, and we have record of them either not using it, opposing it, etc. (courtesy of St Photios' Mystagogy):
Pope Leo the Great (my son was baptized with Leo as his patron yesterday!)
Pope Vigilius
(Council of Toledo here, 589)
Pope Gregory the Great
Pope Zacharias
Pope Leo III
Pope John VIII
Pope Hadrian

Etc

As st Photios points out:
Why do you pass silently over Gregory [the Dialogist] and Zacharias, bishops of Rome, who were adorned with virtue, who increased the flock with divine wisdom and teaching, and who shone with miraculous gifts? For although neither of these men were ever assembled at a synod accorded ecumenical authority, yet brightly imitating those who did, they openly and clearly taught that the All-Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. While Gregory, who wrote Latin, flourished not long before the Sixth Synod, Zacharias, wrote in Greek sixty years after.
....
If Gregory and Zacharias, although many years distant from each other, did not differ in the views about the procession of the All-Holy Spirit, and if the intervening sacred choir of Roman bishops who oversaw the priestly institutions also professed the same doctrines without innovation, being warmed by faith, but rather advocated the same dogmas, then not only these two poles, but those men between them kept, established and directed the same faith.
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