Over the years I've had a growing frustration with the outsourcing of ministry in Christian community, also known as "church".

Every position that would ordinarily be considered sacrificial service now has a person "on staff" to fill the role.

Pastor/Preacher
Teacher
"Executive pastor"
Singer/guitar player
Congregational care
Youth minister
Children's minister
Adult Sunday School pastor
Various support staff
Secondary support staff

And those are just the full time, salaried roles. They do not include:

Building Maintenance
Yard crew
Outside counsel
Bookkeeper (if not full time)
And others....

With all of those positions filled, where is the parishioner's place? With everything accounted for, what is the message to the congregation?

Additionally, what is covertly being taught to the people in church? If all roles are filled, the requirement of the regular man is this:

To provide the capital to keep the machine well oiled. To provide jobs for the professional Christian.

Is there another way? If so, please say so. And while providing a new path, please provide an answer to this question.

Is it really "ministry" if you're being paid to do it?

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Is it really "ministry" if you're being paid to do it?

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Yes.

HTH

My 2 cents:

1) Nothing wrong with being paid, because people still need to live and survive. St. Paul (Bible) mentions taking care of those who preach. There can be discussion on how much people get paid. Should a pastor make over $300K- $1M?

In Catholic church most salaries are very sparse in comparision to what folks could make elsewhere. Catholic priest only receive $20K a year (note they have room and board covered).

2) Depending on size of church- recommendation is have some paid staff to organize the volunteers. It is Very very very difficult to get things done long term with 100% volunteers.

Woody2006 said:

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Is it really "ministry" if you're being paid to do it?

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Yes.

HTH

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Nice. And is your job ministry too?

I've never been in a church that wasn't hurting for volunteers of some kind.

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Over the years I've had a growing frustration with the outsourcing of ministry in Christian community, also known as "church".

Every position that would ordinarily be considered sacrificial service now has a person "on staff" to fill the role.

Pastor/Preacher
Teacher
"Executive pastor"
Singer/guitar player
Congregational care
Youth minister
Children's minister
Adult Sunday School pastor
Various support staff
Secondary support staff

And those are just the full time, salaried roles. They do not include:

Building Maintenance
Yard crew
Outside counsel
Bookkeeper (if not full time)
And others....

With all of those positions filled, where is the parishioner's place? With everything accounted for, what is the message to the congregation?

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Coming from an unpaid church volunteer, the message you're sending me is that you're cheap. I have no problem with paying people for any of those roles as long as they are doing it well.

Ia said:

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With all of those positions filled, where is the parishioner's place? With everything accounted for, what is the message to the congregation?

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The message is: we have everything inside the church taken care of, you go out and take care of everything else.

What the OP is proposing can be done, but it is rare. They have gone the way of Balaam [2 Peter 2:15], who SOLD services of Yah for profit, desiring wealth and station. This was an issue long present in Israel, and Yah hates it; read Ezekiel chapter 34.

Ezekiel 34:1-31 (condensed from NAS) "prophesy against the shepherds of Israel"Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock? You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flockbut with force and with severity you have dominated themTherefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the Lord"Behold, I am against the shepherds"Then I will set over them one shepherd, My servant David, and he will feed them; he will feed them himself and be their shepherd"As for you, My sheep, the sheep of My pasture, you are men, and I am your God," declares the Lord God."

This did not go away in the New Testament either, but there were very quickly men in the congregations who "preached the good news for monetary gain";

2 Cor 2:17 (NAS) For we are not like many, peddling the word of God

Jude 1:11 (NAS) Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam

Phil 1:17-19 (NAS) the former proclaim Christ out of selfish ambition rather than from pure motives

In 1 Corinthians chapter 9 Paul argues for support to those proclaiming the gospel, but this was for missionaries called away from their regular place of work. He says in verse in verse 5 that they should be allowed to "take along" their wives. Take them, that is on their missionary journey. Those people deserve to be supported financially. But for the rest, by the sweat of their brow they shall earn their living.

Nobody at my congregation takes a salary. Everybody is there doing what they do, because they love the Lord and want to serve the body and not be feeding themselves off God's flock. I'm grateful to have the opportunity to be around such people.

Shalom

Ian Neff said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Is it really "ministry" if you're being paid to do it?

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Yes.

HTH

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Nice. And is your job ministry too?

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My job is not an ordained office. Yes, your minister can go off and find a job midweek to support himself. I choose to contribute money to him so that he doesn't have to.

I think everyone has a vocation, some yes...they provide capital, like Lydia.

Some of the things you listed can and are volunteer positions, but some of those are indeed full time jobs.

Ian Neff said:

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Woody2006 said:

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Is it really "ministry" if you're being paid to do it?

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Yes.

HTH

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Nice. And is your job ministry too?

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No. I'm in finance.

It looks like you misread all of 1st Corinthians 9.

But you do you, I'll do me.

Pastor/Preacher - need
Teacher - no
"Executive pastor" - no
Singer/guitar player - no
Congregational care - no
Youth minister - need (most of the time they're part time)
Children's minister - need (most of the time they're part time)
Adult Sunday School pastor - no
Various support staff - like a receptionist? Then yes.
Secondary support staff - like a media/website/marketing person? Yes. Like a business admin? Yes.

And those are just the full time, salaried roles. They do not include:

Building Maintenance - yes.
Yard crew - I guess you don't have to have one.
Outside counsel - probably not a bad idea to have a lawyer
Bookkeeper - see above.
And others.... custodial?

Just out of curiosity, what is your involvement in the church? Most of those positions are not at "regular" (100-300 people) church. A good number of them are given to volunteers.

I don't have a lot of experience with other types of leadership at church, but judging by the amount of "convincing" it takes to get students/college students/young adults/etc. to come volunteer at a nursing home during the week, I cannot imagine what it would look like to leave the coordination and implementation to people who aren't devoted to doing it full-time.

*ultimately, it all depends on the church. Most people don't have the time to take care of the logistics of ministry, but some do. Ideally, we'd all be doing full time ministry in every place we are...but that's not the case.

Ian Neff said:

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With all of those positions filled, where is the parishioner's place? With everything accounted for, what is the message to the congregation?

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These people employed by the parish as support staff, maintenance, youth minister, etc etc... usually ARE parishioners in my experience.

We have all of those positions at my parish. They're paid (although not particularly well), and most of them I believe are parishioners, but we also have a thriving community of volunteers. We need more volunteers, for sure.

You don't need a full time youth pastor or children's pastor or media marketing person to have a church. My goodness.

k2aggie07 said:

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You don't need a full time youth pastor or children's pastor or media marketing person to have a church. My goodness.

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No, but in very large parishes the pastor may want help shepherding his people.

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Additionally, what is covertly being taught to the people in church? If all roles are filled, the requirement of the regular man is this:

To provide the capital to keep the machine well oiled. To provide jobs for the professional Christian.

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I think the non-denominational movement suffers from this to some extent. Personally, I think it comes down to settling for lower expectations from your congregation. The 80/20 rule still applies, even in churches (20% of the people do 80% of the work). With the rise of the "entrepenenur/executive" pastor, it's become easier to let the "Sunday only Christians" stay that way, drive donations up, and hire staff to handle the work of the church.

It's a pain to meet with congregants, give them important roles that require meetings, and have to work around their full time jobs. Add in that a volunteer can decide at anytime to stop and it's not hard to see why those decisions are made.

And non denoms are heavily influence by American (business) culture. It's more efficient to have one big church than two small ones. I used to go to first baptist way back. Never ever spoke to the pastor personally. That's mind blowing in hindsight.

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And non denoms are heavily influence by American (business) culture.

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I think everyone is. It's your name and calling on the line. It's easy to justify a lot of decisions under the guise of "God called me to be xx"

edit: obviously American church related.

Is it? "So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

k2aggie07 said:

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You don't need a full time youth pastor or children's pastor or media marketing person to have a church. My goodness.

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SCONES SCONES SCONES

Our church is small and non-denominational. The people pulling a paycheck are the pastor, the associate pastor/music minister, the church secretary, the piano player and the youth minister. Only the pastor and associate pastor draw more than a pittance. We also pay for bookkeeping on a contract basis. Everyone on staff is either retired or also has another job.

rant

Honestly, the whole idea of vocational ministry or priesthood bothers me. The only example I see in the NT of this is people supporting Paul as he goes from town to town. Even then, Paul practiced his trade wherever he went. So I could see an argument supporting missionaries, but past that I have trouble. In my mind, God commanded all of us to spread the Gospel, and He doesn't really need our help. It is our privilege to participate, and we shouldn't be treating it as work.

Also, in my mind, if your church is so big and complicated that it requires full-time administration, then it is probably too big. The focus needs to be on evangelism, learning, and fellowship, not packing an audiotorium on Sunday and holding out your hand.

/rant

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In my mind, God commanded all of us to spread the Gospel, and He doesn't really need our help. It is our privilege to participate, and we shouldn't be treating it as work.

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He doesn't need our help. But people do.

Frankly, if you are boasting about how your church pays people that work towards it a pittance, I have to question your heart.

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He doesn't need our help. But people do.

Frankly, if you are boasting about how your church pays people that work towards it a pittance, I have to question your heart.

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Wasn't meaning to boast about it.

And I disagree with the above. God allows us to reach people. He doesn't need us to do anything, and neither do other people need us. We are all unnecessary volunteers in God's Kingdom. Participating in God's work in entirely a privilege granted to us, not a burden forced upon us that requires restitution.

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Is it? "So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth."

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I wasn't defending it

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It is our privilege to participate, and we shouldn't be treating it as work.

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I guess it depends on how one views work. What is work supposed to be and what is ministry supposed to be? Are there different rule sets for each?

Nice way to justify being cheap using spirituality.

I have no problem with paying them, and paying them well if they are doing their job correctly.

That's great for you. Did you miss the part where I explicitly stated that I disagree with the very notion of vocational ministry? The idea to me is similar to vocational parenting. Raising my kids is my responsibility and my privilege. I don't expect someone else to pay me for doing it, no matter how good of a father I am.

ramblin_ag02 said:

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That's great for you. Did you miss the part where I explicitly stated that I disagree with the very notion of vocational ministry? The idea to me is similar to vocational parenting. Raising my kids is my responsibility and my privilege. I don't expect someone else to pay me for doing it, no matter how good of a father I am.

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"You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain" (Deut. 25:4).

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I tentatively agree with you. My church has a full time priest, a second priest who works full time in a secular job, and a deacon who works full time. We have a secretary who is part time. We also do small stipends for people who do Sunday school, the choir director, etc.

There is a point where being a priest becomes a full time job. Frankly I can't imagine how our second priest or our deacon does it with a full time job.

A priest does divine services Sunday (he arrives around 7:30 leaves around 3), frequently performs weekday liturgies, visits those who have given birth, are extremely ill or on their deathbeds, does Wednesday night services and church activities, parish council meetings; performs house blessings, baptisms, weddings, and funerals; Friday night vespers, Saturday night confessions and vespers, and weekday confessions and counseling besides. If that's not a full time job I don't know what is.

I can play the scripture game, too.

John 10:12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away.Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.

Phillipians 1:15 It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. 16 The latter do so out of love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. 17 The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains.

You -might- get rich being a nondenominational pastor. You -will not- get rich being a parish priest in the Orthodox Church.

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You -might- get rich being a nondenominational pastor. You -will not- get rich being a parish priest in the Orthodox Church.

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lets dispense with the "my church is better than your church" stuff. Both sides have total compensation packages that would put them above the income level of many of their parishioners. Most traditional priests take advantage of housing allowances, insurances paid for outside of their salary, etc.

Having been involved in a church plant, pastors (regardless of denomination) don't get paid enough for what they do. Their equivalent job in the marketplace would be several hundred thousand dollars and most will never make a fraction of that.

Not talking about which church is better. Answering the dudes claim about hired hands. If you're gonna hire someone, you either have to offer them money or perks. When talking about that, being Joel Osteen comes with a lot more than being a priest at any given parish.

And I don't know how much Greg Matte makes - I think I'd consider him administratively equivalent to a bishop. But my bishop is a monk, and draws no salary.

It's not about church, it's about structure. The OP is talking about problems endemic to "churches". The truth is the problem isn't endemic to all churches.

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Having been involved in a church plant, pastors (regardless of denomination) don't get paid enough for what they do. Their equivalent job in the marketplace would be several hundred thousand dollars and most will never make a fraction of that.

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This is an entirely subjective statement, and I have heard the exact same argument in regards to mothers. Yet I am never had anyone try to guilt trip me for thinking mothers shouldn't get paid.