Sin

5,250 Views | 79 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by agie95
Zobel
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AG
So what's the point then?

If Torah saves, and none of the commandments are new, why do you need Jesus? If the prophets held to Torah and were saved then what greater promises can Hebrews possibly be talking about?
agie95
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AG
You didn't answer one of my questions.

I never said the Torah saves, b/c it doesn't. Performing Torah is supposed to be a reflection of your heart - Loving God with all of your heart, soul, and strength.
agie95
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AG
Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold. Matthew 24:12

Sin is lawlessness which is breaking Torah!

On these two commandments (loving God and neighbor) hang the whole Law and the Prophets." Matthew 22:40

In other words, the Torah is all about love!

agie95
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AG
The goal of the Law [Torah; Father's instructions] is love (1Timothy 1:5). Love is defined as keeping, or walking according to God's commandments (1John 5:3; 2John 1:6). John also tells us that disobedience to God's commandments, to His Torah, is the definition of sin (1John 3:4). Likewise, Yeshua tells us that in order to abide (remain) in His love, we must keep His commandments (John 15:10).


agie95
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AG
Since sin is lawlessness which means those rebelling (choosing not to follow it) against Torah...

"For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?" Romans 6:14-16

The definition of sin has not changed. I am very genuine in this message. Think about it....prophet after prophet called the people back to follow Torah in their heart. I am by no means calling myself a prophet...
Zobel
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AG
You're preaching again. You put forth an assertion in the first post. The person with the theory has to defend it. It's not my role in this conversation to answer your questions but yours to answer mine.

So, if you will. What's the point? You make the Christ out as just another prophet. To wit: if the Law was all and still is all, and abiding is to love, and the purpose of the law is love, etc ad nauseam, then why was Christ necessary?

I still think your fundamental identity relationship of Law = righteousness is terminally flawed. Because then you are saying then that Jesus is the Law, and then that means the Law was crucified. There is a lot of trouble in your basic theology.
agie95
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AG




Quote:

You're preaching again. You put forth an assertion in the first post. The person with the theory has to defend it. It's not my role in this conversation to answer your questions but yours to answer mine.

So, if you will. What's the point? You make the Christ out as just another prophet. To wit: if the Law was all and still is all, and abiding is to love, and the purpose of the law is love, etc ad nauseam, then why was Christ necessary?

I still think your fundamental identity relationship of Law = righteousness is terminally flawed. Because then you are saying then that Jesus is the Law, and then that means the Law was crucified. There is a lot of trouble in your basic theology.
The person with the theory has to defend... There is not a single, not a single post on this thread that says anything about redefining sin or showing what I stated in the OP is wrong. Instead of looking at what I OP, you and others throw up many other verses which you think contradict what I show. That is an issue, b/c you are showing that Scripture contradicts Scripture. Or you throw up some supposed saint who doesn't know what the he double ll he is talking about with the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. You continue to look at things from a Greek, western world mindset instead of looking at Scripture through a Hebrew mindset. The Bible was written by Hebrews. The covenant is for Israel. Learn to read from their context, mindset not some anti-semitic supposed saint.

What was Christ necessary? I made a whole post about that, but of course you ignore it. (reposted below) I posted verse after verse about how Christ paid for our sins. Christians turn to "Jesus" when that was never to be the case. He never said pray to me. You can pray in His name which is a very Jewish thing to do..pray in the name of a righteous person. Instead of really making a thoughtful post in regards to my post about what Yeshua did, you stated my Baptist background is coming out. Scripture is Scripture. Even Christians poster boy Paul states DON'T SIN! You either obey sin or God. Those are your two choices. Obedience resulting in righteousness.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? Romans 6:14-16

Paul also stated:

Do we then nullify the Torah through faithfulness? May it never be! On the contrary, we uphold the Torah. Romans 3:31

He also stated:

For it is not the hearers of Torah who are righteous before God; rather, it is the doers of Torah who will be justified. Romans 2:13

I have yet to really preach. Maybe you can provide a thoughtful full reply instead what you have been doing and deflecting what I say and bring up something else. Stop changing the message to something that it is not.

Quote:

When you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive together with Him when He pardoned us all our transgressions. 14 He wiped out the handwritten record of debts with the decrees against us, which was hostile to us. He took it away by nailing it to the stake. Colossians 2:13-14

But He was pierced through for our transgressions, Isaiah 53:5
But the Lord has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. Isaiah 53:6b
Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors. Isaiah 53:12b

"A Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the Lord. Isaiah 59:20

"As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the Lord: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the Lord, "from now and forever." Isaiah 59:21

Notice the word (Torah) shall not depart from your mouth.

And this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins." Romans 11:27

You know that Yeshua appeared in order to take away sins, and in Him there is no sin. 1 John 3:5

"Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

Hosea was saying death does not have a grip b/c someone was going to come and pay the debt. Yeshua took away our sins. That is not God changing, that is God, our merciful, gracious God, acting out of love for mankind. He is paying our debt that we owe.



Yeshua continually said to turn away from your sins.

"Turn away from your sins, for the kingdom of heaven is near!" Matthew 3:2

From then on, Yeshua began to proclaim, "Turn away from your sins, for the kingdom of heaven is near." Matthew 4:17

"Now is the fullness of time," He said, "and the kingdom of God is near! Turn away from your sins, and believe in the Good News!" Mark 1:5
swimmerbabe11
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agie95 said:


I never said they don't know God, those in willful rebellion, Scripture is clear, they don't know God.

You are not my brother. I serve a different God than you do.


Tbh, I think this is the most important comment in this thread.

If you don't believe in Christ, then how do you agree on anything? I might as well argue religious ethics with a taoist.
It may look the same, parts may sound similar...but the root is compromised.
swimmerbabe11
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ftr, I believe that the Old Testament is for today, with the context of the New Testament. Similarly, it would be hard to understand the need of a New Testament without the Old. In fact, they contain the same message of Law and Gospel beautifully woven throughout.

All sin is a violation of the first commandment, because it is a rejection of God, or putting other desires before God. There are many types of sin, original/actual, sins of commission, sins of omission, willful/ignorant, and basically every failing to be Christ-like.
BusterAg
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AG
Studying Galatians. Read Chapter 5. Thought of this thread.

Freedom in Christ
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. "A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Sometimes I forget that there are funny parts in the Bible.
agie95
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AG
If only people know what everything meant before the last line.....

 
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