So many think the Torah is not for today. We all know most on here don't think so, but here is not something discussed before...

What is sin? 1 John:3-4 - Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. The Greek word used here is anomia. According to BlueLetterBible anomia is used in this way:

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the condition of without law
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because ignorant of it

because of violating it

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contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness

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Interestingly, the root of the word anomia means:
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destitute of (the Mosaic) law
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of the Gentiles

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departing from the law, a violator of the law, lawless, wicked

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Basically, anyone who continues (practices) sin is lawless or Torahless. Sin is breaking the Torah. I know many of you will state the definition of sin has changed. Let's see how John continues in this epistle.

V5 - You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

Obviously, John is speaking of Yeshua. Yeshua was without sin. I think most would agree without any debate that Yeshua followed Torah without sin since in Him there is no sin. This sin was based on Torah, not some new definition that some may try to come up with.

V6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

V7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

We are supposed to be practicing our righteousness...following Torah. Deut 6:25 - It will be righteousness for us if we are careful to observe all this commandment before the Lord our God, just as He commanded us.

V8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

The definition of sin has not changed since v4. If you practice sin....continually do it...

v10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Sinning is not practicing righteousness. Practicing righteousness is not sinning...following Torah. It is like a doctor. A doctor practices medicine. Believers who are made righteous by God, should practice righteousness. They should be obedient.

By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. 1 John 2:3-5

The message is consistent. Commandments, Torah, sin, etc the definitions are the same. They never changed. Whomever does not keep the commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him. Whoever keeps His word (Torah), in him the love of God has truly been perfected.

Are you using "Torah" to include all of the dietary and customary laws or just the moral precepts?

So we don't know Him if we don't tie tassels to our clothes? Or eat shrimp? Is that what your understanding of Scripture is?

...It is necessary that the one who seeks after God in a religious way never holds fast to the letter lest he mistakenly understand things said about God for God Himself. In this case we unwisely are satisfied with the words of Scripture in the place of the Word, and the Word slips out of the mind while we thought by holding onto this garment we could possess the incorporeal Word. In a similar way did the Egyptian woman lay hold not of Joseph but of his clothing, and the men of old who remained permanently in the beauty of visible things and mistakenly worshipped the creature instead of the Creator.
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Keeping Torah does not make you righteous (cf Romans 8). Only Christ does that, because only Christ is Good. We can't even want to be righteous only by the Law (cf Romans 7). We can only become what He is - good - by becoming joined to Him - becoming partakers of the divine nature (cf 2 Peter 1). We come to know God by knowing, being joined to Christ (cf John 17).

There is no opposite to God. Sinfulness is separation from Him -- which is why darkness is merely the a sense of Light. 1 John 5:17 makes this simple - all unrighteousness is sin.

The salvation that Jesus brings is not limited to impacting your eternal consequence, but is also salvation from sin itself. Jesus has taught us how to live a life of true fulfillment. If you follow Jesus's teaching, the world will be better off, and you will personally be better off. Sin is the failure to believe that God is right when he tells us the best way to live.

TampaBayAg said:

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I have tasted just about every flavor of professing Christianity from full-blown antinomianism to Pelagian sinless perfection. It was when I found the beauty of salvation through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone that I was set free. I promise that anyone claiming to keep the Sabbath in accordance to the Mosaic Law is greatly deceived.

Romans 14:23 proclaims that whatsoever is not of faith is sin. Matthew 22:27, Luke 10:27, Mark 12:30, and Deuteronomy 6:5 command us to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind. Though some claim they have, I have yet to personally experience any man that does absolutely everything in perfect faith and loves God every second of his life as he should.

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Instead of analyzing the text I provided, you provide feelings and verses that you think contradict what other verses say. The problem is you don't provide how in the world all these verses come in line without contradicting each other. THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM!

It is natural that our flesh fights being obedient. You felt free, but it is a false freedom. Scripture actually states the opposite.

David said: And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts. Psalm 119:45

Why does he walk in liberty? B/c he seeks out the commandments.

Jacob said:

But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty, and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does. James 1:25

He who abides in the Torah (the law of liberty), not hears it, but does it will be blessed. The Torah is freedom. Why? It is a pattern. The pattern was shown with the Israelites.

First, redemption by the blood of the lamb
second, Obedience/Torah
third, holy spirit
fourth, led by the spirit

This is the pattern set forth in the Torah. This is the pattern used for all believers.

The problem with your feelings are they contradict Scripture. Sin is sin. You use Paul to defend whatever you believe as if Paul contradicts all others. The problem is he doesn't. Just like Yeshua, Paul tells people to stop sinning. In Romans 7, Paul talks about his flesh wants to sin and does. His spirit wants to follow Torah.

Paul also states in Romans 2:13 - For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.

Lastly, you quote Deut 6:5, which the other verses quote, is all about following the commandments.

Deut 6:4-7 - "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. 5 Love Hashem your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These words, which I am commanding you today, are to be on your heart. 7 You are to teach them diligently to your children, and speak of them when you sit in your house, when you walk by the way, when you lie down and when you rise up.

The word for Hear is shema, which doesn't just mean hear, but hear and obey! Obeying the commandments is loving God with all of your heart, soul, mind/strength. Every observant Jew has this memorized. We say several times a day.

Shema Yisrael, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai echad. Vohavta eit Adonai Elohecha, bchol levevcha, uvchal nafshcha, uvchal modecha. Vahu hadvorim haeileh asher anochi mtzavcha hayom al lvavecha.....

You mention, Luke 10:27. What was the conversation?

v25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He is asking what he must do to inherit eternal life. Know, this guy is already in the covenant.

v26 - He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

Yeshua, the Messiah, said what is written in the Torah.

v27 - And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

To a Jew, this means a lot more than what Christians see. Everyone there full well knew the verses surrounding v5 which he quoted.

V28 - And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

Yeshua's response? Do this, and you will live.


Mark 12:30? Well, it quotes the shema just before in verse 29. Basically, Yeshua quotes Deut 6:4-5 and then quotes Lev. 19:18 which is to love your neighbor. This is about the Torah.

John further defines sin as breaking Torah. Sin is sin and you guys don't want to hear it.

I did not state following Torah makes one righteous. I stated, as Scripture does, we should practice righteousness.


How else can you look at 1 John 4:3? Instead of trying to look for verses that you think contradict 1 John 4:3, how else can it be read?

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I stated, as Scripture does, we should practice righteousness.

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We are in agreement.

You are in agreement that we should practice righteousness. Are we in agreement in what Scripture says that means?

agie95 said:

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You are in agreement that we should practice righteousness. Are we in agreement in what Scripture says that means?

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Of course. Moral laws and dietary/clothing laws are completely different.

Can you find where Scripture says that?

agie95 said:

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Can you find where Scripture says that?

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Lev. 11:1 And the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 "Speak to the people of Israel, saying, These are the living things that you may eat among all the animals that are on the earth...

next verses v2-8 - Whatever has a split, divided hoof and chews cud among the animals that you may eat. "Nevertheless, you should not eat of those that only chew cud, or have a split hoof. The camel, though it chews the cud, does not have a divided hoof, is unclean to you. 5 The coney, though it chews the cud yet does not have a divided hoof, so it is unclean to you. 6 The hare, though it chews the cud, does not split the hoof, so it is unclean to you. 7 The pig, though it has a split, divided hoof, does not chew cud, so it is unclean to you. 8 You are not to eat meat from them, nor are you to touch their carcasses. They are unclean to you.

Was it a sin to eat any of the food forbidden in this text before it was given?

Agie I think you end up talking past people because you're not getting at the heart of the disagreement.

All here are talking about salvation, but salvation doesn't mean the same thing to all people, even all Christians.

You are talking about righteousness, and you give the formula Christ -> Torah -> Holy Spirit -> Led by Holy Spirit. This is where the problem comes. No there's no righteousness apart from Christ. So far so good - the Law cannot save, we agree. So step 1: Christ. Yes.

Step two you have Torah. But Acts 10 the gentiles believe and receive the Holy Spirit. They weren't following Torah.

Instead, Orthodoxy is that union to Christ has us die to the old self and the Law, and raised as a new creation (same new as new commandment ). We are not part of the Old Covenant, but the New (Hebrews 8-9).

I think the problem, the root disagreement, is your philosophy creates or mandates an identity relationship between Torah and Righteousness. This is what St Maximos, whom I have been quoting, warns against - that we attempt to grab hold of Righteousness but are left with only the trappings of it -- we are Potiphar's wife, and Joseph is an icon of Christ. The robes are the scriptures, or the Law, or anything about God but yet is not God.

Torah = Righteousness is a false identity.

God = Righteousness.

From there the discussion can begin again -- and this time, it would be about "what does Righteousness' effect look like?" You could make a case that a person united to Christ, united to Righteousness Itself, would be de facto identical to a person united to the Law. But this is a very different premise than a person united to the Law will be de facto identical to a person United to Christ. (The difference being, a person united to the Law would be de jure united to Christ -- but under that law, jure, any failure represents a break in the union. This is the crux of the matter).

Don't grab the robes and miss the (God-)Man.

John 9:41 - Yeshua said to them, "If you were blind, you would have no sin. But now you say, 'We see.' So your sin remains."

Noah knew which animals were clean and which animals were not clean. This was long before the Torah was given at Mt Sinai.

The Torah always existed. The Torah is the Word. The Word was made flesh. Yeshua is the word which is the Torah. Yeshua is the Torah made flesh.

True, bad example. Was it a sin to sacrifice in a manner different than that given in Leviticus? Was it a sin for Cain to sow two different seeds in the same field?

This totally dismisses what is sin, the point of the original post. Sin is breaking Torah. John is pretty clear about this.

It is interesting that you say I am talking past people b/c I don't understand the heart of the disagreement. Could not the same thing be said about you guys? For I understand the point of Christians, at least from a Baptist standpoint. I was a Baptist for 20 years of my adult life. Though thank you for a thoughtful post.

You claim in Acts 10 the gentiles were not following Torah. Luke says otherwise. v2-3 a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day, he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming and saying to him, "Cornelius!"

All scholar's I have ever read says Cornelius was a God-fearer. This meant at that time one who at the very least starting walking out Torah, but had yet to make conversion. Notice, not only is Cornelius walking this way but all his household. He was praying at the ninth hour which is the hour for minchah prayer, when Jews prayed.

Later in v22 - And they said, "Cornelius, a centurion, a righteous and God-fearing man well-spoken of by all the Jewish people...

Righteous, God-fearing, well-spoken of by all the Jews. This man was walking in Torah.

v28 - Peter tells the meaning of the visions - He said to them, "You yourselves know that it is not permitted for a Jewish man to associate with a non-Jew or to visit him. Yet God has shown me that I should call no one unholy or unclean.

v34-35 - Then Peter opened his mouth and said, "I truly understand that God is not one to show favoritism, 35 but in every nation the one who fears Him and does what is right is acceptable to Him.

Again, showing the meaning of the vision. Then in v35 Peter says God shows favoritism to those in every nation that fear Him and what is right. While Peter does not outright say it, any Jew would see that means following Torah.

Regarding the new creation....you are not technically new, but you are refreshed, reborn....not new. This new covenant you claim (which I do to) it says "I will put My Torah within them.Yes, I will write it on their heart. I will be their God and they will be My people." (Jeremiah 31:32 & Hebrews 8:10)

So think about this, God is going to put the Torah within them and write it on your heart. Believers are supposed to have the Spirit in them, on your heart right? The Spirit another manifestation of God. The Torah is the word made flesh, put in you and written on your heart.

Why is the Torah written on your heart?

There are a lot of people who wrote against following Torah, practicing righteousness. That does not make it right. This viewpoint contradicts actual words spoken from God. God told us, anyone telling you to follow other gods, which means not to follow my commandments, you are not to follow them. You are to follow my ways and my commandments (Deut 13:1-4). You are not to add or subtract from the commandments (Deut 4:2 and 12:32). Anyone doing so is not of God.

Sin is breaking Torah. The definition has not changed. Our Messiah continually said stop sinning. Do you think after His death, He would have said, sinning does not matter anymore, I have already paid for it?

I showed how the Torah existed prior to Sinai, but now you are trying to show that sin wasn't always the same.

I provided to you a quote for John about that. I don't know if Cain knew or not, if he didn't then how can it be held against him?

We are not given how much of the Torah people knew before Sinai. We know that murder is wrong. We know giving sacrifices were known. We know Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean animals. We know Abraham listened to God's voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my decrees, and my laws.

Where did all this knowledge come from? Are we ever shown when Abraham were given all these or when Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean? The answer is no.

Is not having tassles on your clothing a violation of the Torah? What about eating shrimp? From your OP, it sounds like your position is that if you do these things, then you don't know God. Is that your position?

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I don't know if Cain knew or not, if he didn't then how can it be held against him?

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We know that murder is wrong.

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I agree. Sowing two seeds in the same field is something Cain probably did not know. He did know murder was wrong though.

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Was it a sin to eat any of the food forbidden in this text before it was given?

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Noah knew which animals were clean and which animals were not clean. This was long before the Torah was given at Mt Sinai.

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This doesn't answer the question.

Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. Gen. 9:3

It does not matter what I say. What does Scripture say?

John 14:15 - "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21 - He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

John 15:5 - I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Bearing fruit is a result of following Torah.

Matthew 7:21-23 - "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

1 JOhn 2:3-6 - By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

How did Yeshua walk? Following Torah.

1 John 5:1-3 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.

and more...What does Scripture say?

Please look up the word used for every living thing. It is the word remes and it is never used in Scripture for every living thing.

If Noah ate a pig, then pigs became extinct. If Noah at a horse, then horses became extinct. Why would there be a clean and an unclean? What in the world would that mean?

So that's your position? You believe Scripture is saying that if we don't have tassles on our clothes, then we don't know God? You believe Scripture is saying that if we eat shrimp, then we don't know God?

That's your interpretation of Scripture?

agie95 said:

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Please look up the word used for every living thing. It is the word remes and it is never used in Scripture for every living thing.

If Noah ate a pig, then pigs became extinct. If Noah at a horse, then horses became extinct. Why would there be a clean and an unclean? What in the world would that mean?

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For sacrificial purposes (Gen. 8:20). If "every living thing" doesn't mean "every living thing", what does it mean?

God did not order the sabbath, the new moons and the feasts to be honored because He wanted men to honor the days themselves: this would have been tantamount to decreeing by the Law that man should worship creation rather than the Creator (cf. Romans 1:25), and should regard the days as holy in themselves and therefore to be venerated. On the contrary, He indicated that He Himself was to be honored symbolically through the days.
For He is the sabbath, as the soul's repose after its exertions in the flesh, and as the cessations of its sufferings in the cause of righteousness.
He is the Passover, as the liberator of those held in the bitter slavery of sin.
He is the Pentecost, as the origin and consummation of all created beings, and as the principle through which all things by nature exist.
Thus the Law destroys those who apprehend it in a literal or outward way, leading them to worship creation rather than the Creator, and to regard as holy in themselves things that were brought into existence for man's sake; for they remain ignorant of Him on whose account they were created.

-St Maximos

What does Scripture say? I quoted it many times. If you know the commandment you should follow it.

Research. Remes every time used, aside from 9:3, it does not mean everything. Other animals are always used along with remes.

agie95 said:

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What does Scripture say? I quoted it many times. If you know the commandment you should follow it.

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So your answer is "yes". Your interpretation of Scripture is that if one eats shrimp then they don't know God.

Thanks for answering.

So Yeshua, who followed Torah literally and was sinless, is destroyed? I do not worship creation on the Sabbath day or a feast.

That is so ludicrous, I am sorry if that insults you, but St Maximos is not getting that from Scripture. That is man's theology, which is exactly what the church is built upon. Taking man's teaching over God's words. Paul literally made sacrifices. He literally followed Torah. He was a Pharisee, which means he was strict towards the Torah and followed Halacha...Oral Torah.

this is not new to you. You have asked this very question several times. It is a sin. If you do it knowing that you shouldn't then you are sinning and guilty. You are re-crucifying the Messiah. He said even though you may call on His name, He did not know you...depart from me you workers of lawlessness.

He didn't say observe. He said apprehend.

You need to read for understanding rather than for refutation, or discussions are useless. Perhaps they are anyway.