Acts 21:20 - They said, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah.

If interested in a discussion about Torah and whether or not it is applicable today, there is a good FB group called The Torah Is For Today. Give it a try.

Torah Is For Today

How does that chapter of the story end?

Paul goes into the temple area- he is dragged out of the temple, the Jews wanted to kill Paul. Paul is rescued by local soldiers and centurions. Acts21 30-40.

Paul stands on steps and speaks to fellow Jews, tells of his conversion on way to Dammascus and becoming a Christian, baptized, speaks how Jesus tells him to go to Gentiles. Jews become outraged and want to kill Paul again. Paul uses his right of being a Roman citizen to avoid being beaten by Romans. ACTS-22 Note: Paul sounds like he would of been a good lawyer type, in knowing his rights and proper procedures.

Acts 23- Paul speaks to Sanhedrin (Jews) and is able to divide the Saduccess Vs Pharasees. Paul lives to see another day- eventually sent to Rome. Note: Interesting how Paul speaks poorly to the high priest, and then quickly apologizes, he recognizes the authority of the high priest. Much like King David- not killing King Saul, due to his authority. Note: enjoy how the bible is not one sided- shows our errors across the board.

Find it interesting how Paul's background/education saves him over and over. Paul was so effective for many reasons but one key reason was he knew both cultures: #1 Jewish- very well versed in the law. #2 Roman citizen- additonal rights and ablitity to communicate.

Overall, I agree. Paul was rescued b/c they saw the soldiers. The soldiers didn't do anything. v32 - Upon seeing the commander and the soldiers, they stopped beating Paul.

Paul never said he became a Christian in this speech. He says "I am a Jewish man...I persecuted this Way (calling this movement within Judaism the Way).

From all reports yes, Paul was very intelligent.

During his speech in Acts 23 Paul says "I am a Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee". Interesting that he would call himself this if the Torah is now done away with in any form.

Everything they arrested him for were trumped up charges. They were not true.

I miss what you are getting at in regards to your first question.

Acts 21:24 is better than 21:20:

"you yourself stay in line and keep the Torah"

Agie95,

Come on! You are about to lose all creditablity. Paul is not a Christian! If Paul is not a Christian then no one is a Christian! The pope is not Catholic! This man was the main advocate for Jesus. The reason most of the world knows Jesus is because of Paul. PAUL LIVED AND BREATHED JESUS! Just read all his writings. A few verses later in ACTS we see his conversion- see below.

Paul believed, like me, that Jesus was the fullfillment of the OT. There is no conflict between the Jewish faith and Jesus. Unless of course you reject Jesus. The Jewish faith seed enabled the flowering of Christianity.

Just a few verses from your ACTS 21:20 we see Paul becoming follower of Jesus

Acts 22 8-9 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' I replied, 'Who are you, sir?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazorean whom you are persecuting.'

Acts 22 16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.'...and saw the Lord saying to me, 'Hurry, leave Jerusalem at once, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'.....Then he said to me, 'Go, I shall send you far away to the Gentiles

Agie95,

1) I am huge fan of the OT (note easier and quicker for me to call it OT, not meant as insult). Most of Jesus quotes are referencing OT verses: Shepherd, My God My God, Jonah, Love God and Love Neighbor, ect all come from OT.

2) We both agree Paul was a loyal Jew. He encountered Jesus and everything changed in his life. Paul went from persecuting the Way to promoting it.

3) Paul viewed Jesus as fullfillment of his Jewish faith. The conflict arose when the Jews did not accept Jesus. So what does Paul do? Reject Jesus and no longer mention the name of Jesus and just be quiet so he can remain Jewish or promote the name of Jesus.

4) The next big step was inviting of all nations to Jesus. By inviting Gentiles and grafting them on to the Jewish tree, Invitation was extended by church, Peter and Paul-(loyal Jews). The Gentiles needed to have faith in Jesus.

booboo91 said:

---

Agie95,

Come on! You are about to lose all creditablity. Paul is not a Christian! If Paul is not a Christian then no one is a Christian! The pope is not Catholic! This man was the main advocate for Jesus. The reason most of the world knows Jesus is because of Paul. PAUL LIVED AND BREATHED JESUS! Just read all his writings. A few verses later in ACTS we see his conversion- see below.

Paul believed, like me, that Jesus was the fullfillment of the OT. There is no conflict between the Jewish faith and Jesus. Unless of course you reject Jesus. The Jewish faith seed enabled the flowering of Christianity.

Just a few verses from your ACTS 21:20 we see Paul becoming follower of Jesus

Acts 22 8-9 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' I replied, 'Who are you, sir?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazorean whom you are persecuting.'

Acts 22 16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.'...and saw the Lord saying to me, 'Hurry, leave Jerusalem at once, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'.....Then he said to me, 'Go, I shall send you far away to the Gentiles

---

I believe what agie95 meant was that Paul did not consider himself a Christian, because what is preached today as Christianity is a Jesus who was a Torah changing and Torah breaking sinner. Paul would disagree with that. The Yeshua he worshipped was the only one to ever keep the Torah perfectly. Paul didn't think he was creating another religion. He believed he was just correcting bad doctrine to the Jewish religion and he remained a Pharisee of that corrected Jewish doctrine all his life.

agie95 said:

---

Acts 21:20 - They said, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah.

If interested in a discussion about Torah and whether or not it is applicable today, there is a good FB group called The Torah Is For Today. Give it a try.

Torah Is For Today

---

Of course Torah is for today, however:

1) the Torah cannot save you, and
2) only the parts that are applicable to the New Covenant are to be kept.

Agie95,

I don't think the Apostles made a conscience effort to not be Jewish. It was a gradual process. I like this verse in ACTS- where they are given a choice to be quiet and the Apostles choose Jesus. Note: Paul was not at this event.

ACTS 5 27-33 When they had brought them in and made them stand before the Sanhedrin, the high priest questioned them, "We gave you strict orders (did we not?) to stop teaching in that name. Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and want to bring this man's blood upon us." But Peter and the apostles said in reply, "We must obey God rather than men.The God of our ancestors raised Jesus, though you had him killed by hanging him on a tree.

God exalted him at his right hand as leader and savior to grant Israel repentance and forgiveness of sins. We are witnesses of these things, as is the holy Spirit that God has given to those who obey him."When they heard this, they became infuriated and wanted to put them to death.

Another cool verse- is a few verses later- Pharisee in the Sanhedrin named Gamalie shows the truth in Christianity. Remember this was written roughly 2000 years ago!

ACTS 5 38-39 So now I tell you, have nothing to do with these men, and let them go. For if this endeavor or this activity is of human origin, it will destroy itself. But if it comes from God, you will not be able to destroy them; you may even find yourselves fighting against God."

Win At Life said:

---

I believe what agie95 meant was that Paul did not consider himself a Christian, because what is preached today as Christianity is a Jesus who was a Torah changing and Torah breaking sinner. Paul would disagree with that. The Yeshua he worshipped was the only one to ever keep the Torah perfectly. Paul didn't think he was creating another religion. He believed he was just correcting bad doctrine to the Jewish religion and he remained a Pharisee of that corrected Jewish doctrine all his life.

---

Thanks for the clarification. I should know this, but I am still confused by Agie95 exact belief. I know he will quote both OT and NT. I know he believes we should still follow all 613 Mosaic laws. I thought he believed in Jesus as our Lord.

agie95 said:

---

During his speech in Acts 23 Paul says "I am a Pharisee, a son of a Pharisee". Interesting that he would call himself this if the Torah is now done away with in any form.

---

Agie95,

Forgot to comment on this. Paul was speaking to the Sanhedrin, to a hostile Jewish audience that want to beat him.

1) Paul by his comments divides the groups and is able to get away. Pharisee vs. Saduccee.

2) Also first step in conversion/ winning debate is finding common ground. You and I may disagree on requirement of Mosaic law today. But we both agree we both love the OT. That is our common ground that we can build from.

Enjoy our conversations.

booboo91 said:

---

Agie95,

Come on! You are about to lose all creditablity. Paul is not a Christian! If Paul is not a Christian then no one is a Christian! The pope is not Catholic! This man was the main advocate for Jesus. The reason most of the world knows Jesus is because of Paul. PAUL LIVED AND BREATHED JESUS! Just read all his writings. A few verses later in ACTS we see his conversion- see below.

Paul believed, like me, that Jesus was the fullfillment of the OT. There is no conflict between the Jewish faith and Jesus. Unless of course you reject Jesus. The Jewish faith seed enabled the flowering of Christianity.

Just a few verses from your ACTS 21:20 we see Paul becoming follower of Jesus

Acts 22 8-9 I fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to me, 'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' I replied, 'Who are you, sir?' And he said to me, 'I am Jesus the Nazorean whom you are persecuting.'

Acts 22 16 Now, why delay? Get up and have yourself baptized and your sins washed away, calling upon his name.'...and saw the Lord saying to me, 'Hurry, leave Jerusalem at once, because they will not accept your testimony about me.'.....Then he said to me, 'Go, I shall send you far away to the Gentiles

---

Please read what I stated. I said Paul does not call himself a Christian in this speech.

I said that b/c you stated how Paul described how he became a Christian, Yet in the speech he called the movement the WAY. It was considered a segment of Judaism.

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

agie95 said:

---

Acts 21:20 - They said, "You see, brother, how many myriads there are among the Jewish people who have believedand they are all zealous for the Torah.

If interested in a discussion about Torah and whether or not it is applicable today, there is a good FB group called The Torah Is For Today. Give it a try.

Torah Is For Today

---

Of course Torah is for today, however:

1) the Torah cannot save you, and
2) only the parts that are applicable to the New Covenant are to be kept.

---

Yet, no where is it taught to only follow parts that are applicable to the New Covenant. When Paul was speaking to the Bereans (Acts 17) what did they do? Searched the Scriptures....the Tanakh. No where in the Tanakh is the there talk of only following a portion of Torah.

When Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant what does he tell us about it? v33 - I will put My Torah within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

Do you have any Scriptural support for your viewpoint?

Do you keep the laws related to womens' monthly period?

booboo91 said:

---

Win At Life said:

---

Thanks for the clarification. I should know this, but I am still confused by Agie95 exact belief. I know he will quote both OT and NT. I know he believes we should still follow all 613 Mosaic laws. I thought he believed in Jesus as our Lord.

---

---

I believe Yeshua is a manifestation of God. I believe He was sinless. I believe He paid the debt we owed for sinning. Per His words:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-19

Fulfill means to correctly interpret, which He continues to do in v21.

Heaven and earth are still here, therefore not one stroke has passed from the Torah.

Whoever annuls any commandment and teaches others to do the same will be least in the kingdom.....not in the kingdom.

Whoever keeps and teaches the commandments shall be called great in the kingdom.

The definition of sin never changes. The only definition we have is breaking Torah. There is no other sin.

Salvation comes by grace. Just as the Israelites were redeemed and then given the Torah, we are redeemed and then shall be obedient b/c we love God. Following the commandments is love.

That is the basics of what I believe.

I really enjoy our conversations as well. While we disagree on some things, I find you thoughtful, knowledgeable of Scripture, and willing to actually have a discussion.

Yes. My wife and I do not touch or sit on the same place. We sleep in different beds during this time.

agie95 said:

---

Yes. My wife and I do not touch or sit on the same place. We sleep in different beds during this time.

---

I'm talking about the laws that apply to women.

I think you know the answer to that.

agie95 said:

---

I think you know the answer to that.

---

Why do you not keep the Torah laws that apply to women?

b/c I am not a woman. Just like I don't keep the commandments regarding the High Priest, Levites, farmers, etc.

agie95 said:

---

b/c I am not a woman. Just like I don't keep the commandments regarding the High Priest, Levites, farmers, etc.

---

In the same way, the dietary laws and ceremonial laws don't apply to New Covenant believers. They have died to the law, in order that they should be married to another: namely Christ.

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

agie95 said:

---

b/c I am not a woman. Just like I don't keep the commandments regarding the High Priest, Levites, farmers, etc.

---

In the same way, the dietary laws and ceremonial laws don't apply to New Covenant believers. They have died to the law, in order that they should be married to another: namely Christ.

---

The niddah laws never applied to men before or after Yeshua. So I do not see how this is the same thing. I am baffled at this argument. I see it as apples and oranges.

Yeshua said not one stroke will pass from the Torah until the Heaven and earth are passed away. Anyone who does not do the commandments or teaches others not to do them will be least in the kingdom...in other words not in the kingdom.

Please provide verse that says believers die to the Torah or that they were ever married to the Torah.

The other thing to think about is that Yeshua is the word made flesh. The only word that existed at that time was the Tanakh. David continually called the Torah the Word. What you are saying is people died to Yeshua to marry Yeshua?

Or do you not know, brothersfor I am speaking to those who know the lawthat the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.
Romans 7:1-6 ESV
http://bible.com/59/rom.7.1-6.ESV

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God. If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations "Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch" (referring to things that all perish as they are used)according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.
Colossians 2:16-23 ESV
http://bible.com/59/col.2.16-23.ESV

Verses like these are exactly why Peter said Paul was difficult to understand. For the leaders (Jacob, Peter, etc) told Paul to take a Nazarite Vow to prove he kept Torah Acts 21:24. Paul also still considers himself a Pharisee and we all know Pharisees keep Torah.

We also have to keep in mind Yeshua's own words. The Messiah Himself said anyone who teaches not to do the commandments will be least in the kingdom.

What you are stating is a direct contradiction to the Messiah's words. To me, that is an issue.

When reading chapter 7 one must remember chapters 5 and 6, namely, that we are no longer under the purpose of the law that brings death, or as he later puts it in chapter eight, the "law of sin and death." In other words, we have been set free from sin and have become servants who obey God (6:22).

In verse 6 of chapter 7 it says: But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Is Paul saying people were bound to the Torah, died to it, and now serve in a different way? No. Again 6:22 says we have been set free from sin and have become servants who obey God.

Paul says in Colossians 2:14 that "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."

It is not the Torah or any commandments that we are freed from, but the law of sin and death. We were bound to that law. The Torah brings freedom.

And I will walk at liberty, For I seek Your precepts. Psalm 119:45 - here David is saying he walks in Liberty b/c He is seeking the commandments!

Jacob says the same thing in James 1:25 - But one who looks intently at the perfect law, the law of liberty (speaking of Torah), and abides by it, not having become a forgetful hearer but an effectual doer, this man will be blessed in what he does.

Lastly, Paul right after he says what you quoted says this in verse 12: So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

The Christian mindset is the Messiah came to free man from the Torah, but no where is this stated. It is a belief that is held and unfortunately skews ones mind to read verses in a incorrect manner. Yeshua is the Torah made flesh.

Please understand Paul uses the word law in many different ways. Law does not always mean Torah when used by Paul. One must take into context what is said and what is said can never contradict other Scripture.

I forgot to add some more of ch 6.

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God 6:6-10

We were held captive by sin, by the "old self" or the flesh (our service to our own way, our own evil inclination, the sinful nature). Death once had dominion over us, but now we have "died to that which held us captive" (7:6), a death to sin. Paul is carrying forward the exact same line of thought as in chapter six. Just as in chapter six, where his use of "law" refers to the power of the Torah over the unregenerate heart to increase trespass (one purpose of many, and a negative purpose for sure!), so here in chapter seven he continues with the same use of the law, and shows via the analogy of the married woman, that we have been released from that purpose of the law. The Torah no longer produces in us an increase in trespass.

As Paul has done throughout the letter whenever he says something that might be construed as anti-law, Paul quickly anticipates and refutes the argument that he is against God's instructions for his people as identified in the Torah.

What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! (7:7a)

Regarding Colossians 2, this is the easiest of the most common verses brought up to defend.

We do not have a lot of information regarding who was behind the Colossian heresy and what their specific beliefs were. Some kind of false teaching was threatening the Colossian church, yet exactly what constituted it is debated among scholars. Colossians scholar Peter T. O'Brien describes several different possibilities including Gnostic-influenced Essene Judaism, a pagan mystery cult, a combination of Gnostic Judaism with pagan elements, and Jewish Christian Mystical Asceticism. A common position is that this heresy was some type of proto-Gnosticism. Gnosticism, which was fully developed in the second century AD, included worship of angels and asceticism, so many feel that the Colossian heresy was some earlier form of this.

Asceticism is is a lifestyle characterized by abstinence from worldly pleasures, often for the purpose of pursuing spiritual goals. They did not believe in enjoying good food and drink or celebrating anything really. The Jewish way of celebrating the Sabbath was and is full of joy, wine, and good hot food. The New Moon celebrations are joyous occasions. The other festivals aside from Shabbat are joyous occasions.

Paul gives specifics about the false teaching that has infiltrated the Colossian church. What does Paul say about this heresy?

• Some are trying to delude the Colossian believers with plausible arguments (2:4).
  
• Paul warns them against being taken captive by philosophy and empty deceit (2:8).
  
• This heresy is according to human tradition (2:8), human precepts and teachings (2:21), and self-made religion (2:23).
  
• It is according to the elemental spirits of the world (2:8).
  
• It is not according to Christ (2:8).
  
• Members of this heresy are passing judgment on the Colossians concerning food, drink, festivals, new moons, and Sabbaths (2:16; cf. 2:21).
  
• They insist on asceticism (2:18, 23; cf. 2:21).
  
• They worship angels and stress visions (2:18).
  
• They are not connected to the Head, which is Christ (2:19).
  
• They appear wise (2:23).
  
• Their man-made traditions have no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh (2:23).

So one can see that this teaching was not from God. The Torah is from God. The Sabbath is from God. The New Moons are from God.

Those from outside the congregation were judging those in it for recognizing and celebrating the Jewish festivals, Shabbat, the New Moons, etc.

Quote:

---

Fulfill means to correctly interpret, which He continues to do in v21.

---

Lol no.

Fulfil there is telos. Means complete, bring to its correct end, it's purpose. Just as St. Paul wrote in Romans 10:4 (the culmination [telos] of the law indeed is Christ).

Ridiculous.

You are twisting the plain reading of the text.

Let's take a test case: circumcision. Are New Covenant believers required to be circumcised? It is a requirement in the Law of Moses. See Leviticus 12.

Paul says:

Was anyone at the time of his call already circumcised? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone at the time of his call uncircumcised? Let him not seek circumcision. For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.
1 Corinthians 7:18-19 ESV
http://bible.com/59/1co.7.18-19.ESV

agie95 said:

---

Please read what I stated. I said Paul does not call himself a Christian in this speech.

I said that b/c you stated how Paul described how he became a Christian, Yet in the speech he called the movement the WAY. It was considered a segment of Judaism.

---

1) Let me get some basic ballpark definitions out of the way for our conversation that I think will be helpful:

- Judaism (Jews today)- Believe in God & OT- Reject Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
- Christian (Christians today)- Believe in what Judaism taught (OT) & also accept Jesus as their savior and his fullfillment of the OT promises.

2) Yes we agree the early church was called The Way. ACTS Vese shows Paul's conversion- being baptised and how he is a follower of Jesus. This was a huge game changer for Paul. He goes from ridgedly defending his Jewish faith and attacking the Way, to promoting Jesus and the church. Paul does a 180.

3) Yes we agree initially the Apostles (they were All Jews) considered following Jesus (a Jew) an extension of their Jewish faith. Note: I believe the same thing. However- we run into conflict when Jews reject Jesus. If this had not happened there would be no divide between Jew and Christian. You can't follow Jesus and be silent.

Note: the Jewish faith is not wrong in what it believes except, it is not complete when it misses Jesus.

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

You are twisting the plain reading of the text.

---

If you want a discussion, I will discuss. But you tell me I am twisting words, but then you don't tell me how I am twisting words. Then you go on to another point. Give me the decency of at least speaking about what I spent time explaining.

What did I twist?

The way many people think of Judaism today, yes the reject Yeshua as the Messiah.
Christianity does not believe what Judaism taught b/c they don't follow it.

Paul does not promote the church. Ekklasia is the word used and means congregation. When the Septuagint was written the word Ekklasia was used at Mt Sinai for the multitude standing there. Paul went to synagogue after synagogue speaking to Jews and Greeks.

As you mention The Way was a part of Judaism. There was never supposed to be a separation. It is one faith. You cannot take one without the other. Traditional Judaism is wrong in that they do not accept Yeshua as the Messiah, but Christianity is wrong when they see the Torah going away. Covenants build on each other in Scripture. They never replace. The New Covenant in Jeremiah 33 says the Torah will be placed on the heart. That is the addition in this covenant.

agie95 said:

---

I believe Yeshua is a manifestation of God. I believe He was sinless. I believe He paid the debt we owed for sinning. Per His words:

Fulfill means to correctly interpret, which He continues to do in v21.

Heaven and earth are still here, therefore not one stroke has passed from the Torah.

Whoever annuls any commandment and teaches others to do the same will be least in the kingdom.....not in the kingdom.

Whoever keeps and teaches the commandments shall be called great in the kingdom.

The definition of sin never changes. The only definition we have is breaking Torah. There is no other sin.

Salvation comes by grace. Just as the Israelites were redeemed and then given the Torah, we are redeemed and then shall be obedient b/c we love God. Following the commandments is love.

That is the basics of what I believe.

---

1) So do you believe in Jesus? When you say you believe in Yeshua. I just want to be clear in my understanding.

2) I would agree with everything you said. The one exception is the requirement of following all of the 613 Mosaic laws (your breaking of the Torah comment). The reason you know well- Authority of the Apostles (Church), letting in new gentile converts into the new Christian faith. Council of Jerusalem in 50 AD- had very similar discussion with Judaizers who had very similar position to you.

agie95 said:

---

Aggie4Life02 said:

---

You are twisting the plain reading of the text.

---

If you want a discussion, I will discuss. But you tell me I am twisting words, but then you don't tell me how I am twisting words. Then you go on to another point. Give me the decency of at least speaking about what I spent time explaining.

What did I twist?

---

Your discussion on how you know that Paul didn't really mean what he said in Romans, etc. That's why I brought up the test case of circumcision.