I have no clue why a would say or believe that or even try to opine on it. Without knowing if he quoted scripture or presented some theology to support it, it's hard to say what he was thinking and actually address it. I don't think it's consistent with the nature of God though. And yes, poor pastoral advice can definitely hurt relationships if they don't have counseling experience (and I mean licensed, people who own or work at practices and handle this repeatedly). Knowing the bible doesn't mean you know people.

But then again, I think the man is asking the wrong question in the first place. Why does miscarriage represent a punishment of sin in his mind? Is his marriage not already struggling with the sin he's disclosed? They may have needed counseling before this happened.

Martin Q. Blank said:

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Seems to be exactly what happened to David.

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Beat me to it. BTW, do you call potato chips "crisps".....?

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But then again, I think the man is asking the wrong question in the first place. Why does miscarriage represent a punishment of sin in his mind? Is his marriage not already struggling with the sin he's disclosed? They may have needed counseling before this happened.

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Agreed. I think the husband makes the link because fear-based Christianity isn't uncommon. I grew up in that. Everything bad that happened was because of some sin we committed, like God is just waiting up in Heaven to swat our knuckles for passing a note during class. I agree it's the wrong question to be asking.

I spoke with a friend of mine who has gone through a miscarriage and she brought up a point I hadn't considered. My first thought was what kind of added guilt is this putting on the husband, and what kind of resentment is it leading to with the wife towards the husband. My friend pointed out that it's very common for a woman who loses a child to blame herself. At those times, she needs her husband to stand with her and expose those lies for what they are. Instead, this is likely adding to her guilt.

Counseling may have been needed before, but I'd say it is certainly needed now.

Malibu said:

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Would God kill an unborn child to punish a man for watching porn? If your God would do that, your God is evil. If your God is not evil, then the answer is no, God would not do that, and the pastor is mistaken.

For those of you wondering why some of us non-believers have lingering hangups with Christianity, it is encounters with pastors like these that reopen old wounds.

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Just to clarify, you are 100% against abortion in all scenarios (including the extreme anomalies or rape, incest, etc.)...yes?

Plus, if God killed this baby to punish the father for looking at porn, yet the pastor even said that he doesn't know and neither does the father. So how is God punishing you by making your loved ones suffer effective if there's no way to know that's why He's doing it?

I mean, some people believe me having 6 tattoos is sinful. If I have a child die, under this pastor's theology, how do I know if it was a freak accident or if He's simply punishing me for having tattoos? It's just a such a dangerous and harmful view of God, IMO. It's really no different than the "natural disaster as punishment for homosexuality" reasoning.

RetiredAg said:

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But then again, I think the man is asking the wrong question in the first place. Why does miscarriage represent a punishment of sin in his mind? Is his marriage not already struggling with the sin he's disclosed? They may have needed counseling before this happened.

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Agreed. I think the husband makes the link because fear-based Christianity isn't uncommon. I grew up in that. Everything bad that happened was because of some sin we committed, like God is just waiting up in Heaven to swat our knuckles for passing a note during class. I agree it's the wrong question to be asking.

I spoke with a friend of mine who has gone through a miscarriage and she brought up a point I hadn't considered. My first thought was what kind of added guilt is this putting on the husband, and what kind of resentment is it leading to with the wife towards the husband. My friend pointed out that it's very common for a woman who loses a child to blame herself. At those times, she needs her husband to stand with her and expose those lies for what they are. Instead, this is likely adding to her guilt.

Counseling may have been needed before, but I'd say it is certainly needed now.

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My wife had a miscarriage and we have a lot of friend that have as well. It's not uncommon at all but didn't used to be discussed much. The loss is real on more than simply an emotional level. Empathy and support are the most appropriate responses rather than blame. It was years ago but she still feels it when it comes up. It's hard to assign blame to God given everything that can go wrong in the process, and the fact that like you said, he's not an imp seeking to make your life as difficult as possible.

RetiredAg said:

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Plus, if God killed this baby to punish the father for looking at porn, yet the pastor even said that he doesn't know and neither does the father. So how is God punishing you by making your loved ones suffer effective if there's no way to know that's why He's doing it?

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You can't. The pastor's comments were misplaced, but not wrong (see David for the exact same situation and many others for examples of punishment on earth for sins). You can't know for certain that this was because of that without a prophet. However, affliction tends to capture our attention and God uses it. Heb. 12

I kind of agree with the pastor. It's not likely but God could do it and fully be within His nature.

Nobody knows. Nobody.

Malibu said:

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Would God kill an unborn child to punish a man for watching porn? If your God would do that, your God is evil. If your God is not evil, then the answer is no, God would not do that, and the pastor is mistaken.

For those of you wondering why some of us non-believers have lingering hangups with Christianity, it is encounters with pastors like these that reopen old wounds.

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Malibu, the best thing one can do is to ignore such pastors and go directly to the Word of God.

1)As others said- King David losing child. Sins of father absolutely will affect their family and children. Sin has consequences, impacts so many folks in negative way. Just as Love can affect us for generations. Think of the impact St. Paul has on us today, even though he lived 2000 years ago. Generation after generation is affected by those who go before us.

2)Now whether God took this child's life earlier than normal just because of this father's sin? God only knows. Can this child dying impact the family and this father and play into God's plan? Absolutely.

booboo91 said:

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1)As others said- King David losing child. Sins of father absolutely will affect their family and children. Sin has consequences, impacts so many folks in negative way. Just as Love can affect us for generations. Think of the impact St. Paul has on us today, even though he lived 2000 years ago. Generation after generation is affected by those who go before us.

2)Now whether God took this child's life earlier than normal just because of this father's sin? God only knows. Can this child dying impact the family and this father and play into God's plan? Absolutely.

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How is it just or good for the child?

Watson,

1) Need to understand, everything you and I have is a gift. Once you understand God gives life and takes life when he wants to. That every breath is a gift. It makes sense. If I give you $10 or $1Million they are both a gift. We are entitled to nothing. " You get what you get and you don't throw a fit"

2) God has the authority we don't. Folks recognize this in movies or in conversations, we will hear folks say "He is playing God"

3) There is Heaven. There is more than life on earth. God can make things up. He can set things straight in the next life. If he can give a gifts on earth he can also do in Heaven. So for the child who dies, there is Heaven.

4) By observation it is easy to see- some folks live long lives some live very short. Some folks are born into good families others are born into bad- see Curtis Martin NFL. Some folks are born healthy/sick. Some born during peace/war.

The only thing we can control, is how we react to this life (gift) we have been given with all it's ups and downs. Tons of examples of people serving/ dying for others, Loving others to act as rolemodel for us
See Team Hoyt

So God is not subject to any objective morality? Might makes right because of inherent power?

Short answer yes. God made everything including our morals. We can go into long conversation about God. Who is a Mystery, Perfect, Love, Wants us to Be happy, wants us with him in Heaven. God is the end all and be all.

Dr. Watson said:

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aggiegamecock said:

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Malibu said:

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Would God kill an unborn child to punish a man for watching porn? If your God would do that, your God is evil. If your God is not evil, then the answer is no, God would not do that, and the pastor is mistaken.

For those of you wondering why some of us non-believers have lingering hangups with Christianity, it is encounters with pastors like these that reopen old wounds.

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If God chose to do that He would be within His right. However, you ignore attributes of God to reach that conclusion (that He is evil). If He knows and loves my child before it is born, what do I have to fear of it happening? It is certainly not my desire but I doubt any of us fear for the welfare of the child. Only people who don't believe in Heaven think the loss of the present is evil.

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It's pretty evil. It's punishing an innocent for a crime it had no part in. How is that not evil? Just saying, "the baby goes to Heaven," doesn't change the inherent injustice of the act and calls into question the whole point of existence in this world if it means so little to the deity.

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Again, we disagree on the nature of God. I believe that God redeems everything, therefore good can come out of anything because good is His nature.

Also, as was said above, you're 100% against abortion right? Isn't that pretty much the same thing?

Dr. Watson said:

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So God is not subject to any objective morality? Might makes right because of inherent power?

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Is it immoral for you to kill a cockroach?

7thGenTexan said:

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Regarding the OP, the God of the Bible is a God of wrath. He destroys people and tribes and nations for all sorts of sins. He visits the sins of the father on the children to the third and fourth generations. He ultimately kills all people because one man sinned. The OP's religion is nice, but it has little to do with the Bible.

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I would say not so much wrath but rather consquences of sin. In the bible we are presented over and over with a blessing or curse. The right way or the wrong way. We are given countless examples over roughly 2000 years (when bible was written) what happens when we do good (love) or do evil (sin). Our actions affect not only us but all those around us.

Jesus makes it clear- "A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.

How are you going to live your life?

Frok said:

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I kind of agree with the pastor. It's not likely but God could do it and fully be within His nature.

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If God can murder an innocent(that is what you believe about a fetus correct) to Punish the guilty for thought crime just what couldn't God do and be fully withing his nature?

7thGenTexan said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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So God is not subject to any objective morality? Might makes right because of inherent power?

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Is it immoral for you to kill a cockroach?

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Would it still be moral if cockroaches had human intelligence?

Aggrad08 said:

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7thGenTexan said:

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Dr. Watson said:

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So God is not subject to any objective morality? Might makes right because of inherent power?

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Is it immoral for you to kill a cockroach?

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Would it still be moral if cockroaches had human intelligence?

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The point is that the intelligence of a cockroach is likely closer to a human's than a human's is to the God of the universe.

Aggrad08 said:

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If God can murder an innocent(that is what you believe about a fetus correct) to Punish the guilty for thought crime just what couldn't God do and be fully withing his nature?

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By his nature God cannot murder. He gives us our life (gift) and he will eventually end our life. See my comments above to Dr. Watson.

In related way- Famous bible verses on God as the potter and we are the clay. Can a plate/bowl be upset at how the potter made it? Answer- nope- the potter has the authority, makes what it wants. In similar way- God gives us life. We can't control how we are made, but we can control how we live our life. Doing Evil or Good.

Jeremiah 18 3-10 I went down to the potter's house and there he was, working at the wheel. Whenever the object of clay which he was making turned out badly in his hand, he tried again, making of the clay another object of whatever sort he pleased. Then the word of the Lord came to me: Can I not do to you, house of Israel, as this potter has done? says the LORD. Indeed, like clay in the hand of the potter, so are you in my hand, house of Israel....But if that nation does what is evil in my eyes, refusing to obey my voice, I repent of the good with which I promised to bless it.

Isaiah 64:8 Yet you, LORD, are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

Paul also speaks of God as potter in Romans 9:21

I understand the point you were making. Mine was that much of the value we place on life has to do with its intellectual capabilities. I don't think it would be moral for aliens 1000 times smarter to squash us. It's not the gap, it's the level.

Aggrad08 said:

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I understand the point you were making. Mine was that much of the value we place on life has to do with its intellectual capabilities. I don't think it would be moral for aliens 1000 times smarter to squash us. It's not the gap, it's the level.

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That's from the perspective of a man. How about chimpanzees and dolphins? They're smarter than many humans. It's a little trickier, yes. What level of intelligence constitutes life that can't be morally taken?

We have no concept of what a God who can create the universe would be like. Something that may transcend space and time is far beyond our capacity to fathom.

7th,

That video made me laugh. that was funny.

Fear of the Lord, Awe. Being in front of God (who has always existed, made absolutely everything we see) could be a terrifying experience. We see in the bible- folks freak out when they just see the power of angels. There is a reason they are saying fear not.