Hillbilly Elegy

1,607 Views | 24 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by AGC
BusterAg
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AG
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0062300547?ie=UTF8&tag=thewaspos09-20&camp=1789&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=0062300547

I think that this book is very, very relevant to today's culture.

We live in a bit of a bubble down here in energyland. Giving this a read will add to some understanding about why we voted the way that we did.
747Ag
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AG
I'm going to read it.
BusterAg
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AG
Would love to hear your thoughts on it when you finish it.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

I've seen the author on several shows. Especially on CNN. I got a strong sense of liberal elite telling other liberal elite why middle america is so "screwed up" and why liberals need to approach them differently so they can see how stupid, racist, and bigoted they have been. I do not plan to read this any time soon.
7nine
BusterAg
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AG
I would say that you missed the point, and that your comment is borderline racist.

There is a huge chunk of America that is suffering. White working-class people are among them. Not all people born in Franklin county Missouri are meth head dead beats, but illicit drug use is a problem in these communities.

My advice is that, if you are going to talk about the struggles of the black (or, substitute with any and/or every racial minority) community, you should consider the working white. These communities are suffering, and to ignore that is to somewhat give credence to the idea that genetics are responsible for economic outcomes.

The point of the book is that there exists a group of working class people that are having trouble with our society, and one of the reasons that this has happened is because we have ignored them and downplayed their plight. They are white, so everything should be dandelions and roses for them, even when we have structured our economy in a way so that their jobs, all 70,000 factories that we have shuttered, are no longer important to us.
TRD-Ferguson
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AG
Great book if you want to understand rural Appalachia and much of the South. What he describes has been going on for generations. He's 30 years younger than me but the book describes my rural Mississippi family to a T. My Dad and mom left that area and moved to Texas in 1953. After reading that book I called my sister and told her that decision saved her and my lives. Every Aunt, Uncle and cousin I have, are living examples of the people he describes in the book and the cycle keeps repeating itself.
Texaggie7nine
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I'm sorry I'm so confused. Who are you responding to. It makes sense if it's to Cage but that post was after yours.
7nine
Kugelfang52
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Interesting. I will have to check it out.
diehard03
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not to stray too far into Politicsland....

Quote:

And she ceded the white working-class voters who backed Mr. Clinton in 1992. Though she would never have won this demographic, her husband insisted that her campaign aides do more to try to cut into Mr. Trump's support with these voters. They declined, reasoning that she was better off targeting college-educated suburban voters by hitting Mr. Trump on his temperament.

Instead, they targeted the emerging electorate of young, Latino and African-American voters who catapulted Mr. Obama to victory twice, expecting, mistakenly, that this coalition would support her in nearly the same numbers. They did not.

In the end, Mr. Trump's simple promise to "Make America Great Again," a catchphrase Mrs. Clinton dismissed as a vow to return to a racist past already long disappeared, would draw enough white Americans to the polls to make up for his low minority support.

Link
YokelRidesAgain
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

Quote:

I've seen the author on several shows. Especially on CNN. I got a strong sense of liberal elite telling other liberal elite why middle america is so "screwed up" and why liberals need to approach them differently so they can see how stupid, racist, and bigoted they have been. I do not plan to read this any time soon.

There is no one in the book that I can recall who is portrayed as a racist or a bigot. And many of the people are not stupid either, although some make a series of very bad decisions.

This is a memoir by a conservative columnist for the National Review...it has nothing to do with a "liberal elite". It is true that JD Vance is far more of a George Will conservative than a Trumpist, but even if he was a flaming Bolshevik I don't see how that invalidates his core message--on an individual level, the solutions to the problems of people in poor white communities are up to the people in those communities. You have a lot better chance of bettering your life through hard work than waiting for some politician to wave a wand and bring "hope and change" or "make America great again".
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
BusterAg
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AG
One of the core messages that I got from the book is that every amount of desperation and social difficulty that you see in poor black communities, you also see in a lot of poor white communities. Some of the vices are slightly different, but the basic problems are very much the same.
Texaggie7nine
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So poor white doesn't exist outside of the south? ?
7nine
Sapper Redux
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BusterAg said:

One of the core messages that I got from the book is that every amount of desperation and social difficulty that you see in poor black communities, you also see in a lot of poor white communities. Some of the vices are slightly different, but the basic problems are very much the same.


There's a big difference at the sociological level between urban ghettos and rural poverty that has in part to do with the delivery of basic services, mobility, and social perception.
BusterAg
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

So poor white doesn't exist outside of the south? ?
Of course it does.

Does the poor black exist outside of the ghettos and inner-city?
BusterAg
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AG
Dr. Watson said:

BusterAg said:

One of the core messages that I got from the book is that every amount of desperation and social difficulty that you see in poor black communities, you also see in a lot of poor white communities. Some of the vices are slightly different, but the basic problems are very much the same.


There's a big difference at the sociological level between urban ghettos and rural poverty that has in part to do with the delivery of basic services, mobility, and social perception.
Why do you say?
I'm not saying that there is no difference. I'm asking why it makes such a "big" difference, especially in terms of escaping the toxic culture to find success and/or make better decisions, especially as a young person.

1) How are basic services different in urban vs rural poor communities? How does this make a difference?

2) How is economic mobility different? Why is it different? I think that this book makes a very good case that challenges in inner-city ghettos and rural poor have many of the exact same problems that lead to difficulties in economic mobility.

3) How is social perception different? How is the social perception of poor inner-city black communities make life tougher for them than the social perception impact on rural poor white communities?
Texaggie7nine
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I thought the book was about southern culture which isn't poor by any means. My mistake. It's about just the poor white southerners.
7nine
Sapper Redux
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BusterAg said:

Dr. Watson said:

BusterAg said:

One of the core messages that I got from the book is that every amount of desperation and social difficulty that you see in poor black communities, you also see in a lot of poor white communities. Some of the vices are slightly different, but the basic problems are very much the same.


There's a big difference at the sociological level between urban ghettos and rural poverty that has in part to do with the delivery of basic services, mobility, and social perception.
Why do you say?
I'm not saying that there is no difference. I'm asking why it makes such a "big" difference, especially in terms of escaping the toxic culture to find success and/or make better decisions, especially as a young person.
One thing that bothers me about this "make better decisions" mantra is that it assumes people are naturally perfectly healthy, physically and especially mentally -- which many people born into and growing up in poverty are not -- and it assumes the ability to cut all ties and easily relocate, because they are purely self-sufficient and any weakness on that front is a sign of moral failure.

1) How are basic services different in urban vs rural poor communities? How does this make a difference?

Urban poor are more likely to be exposed to significant environmental problems from pollution, lead (it's not just Flint with problems), and more likely to get caught in the justice system.

2) How is economic mobility different? Why is it different? I think that this book makes a very good case that challenges in inner-city ghettos and rural poor have many of the exact same problems that lead to difficulties in economic mobility.

Primarily because of the interaction with the justice system and the racial disparities in that system that hold up even after controlling for income. I'm not minimizing the economic problems facing rural poor whites, and issues with addiction may be a bigger problem there than in modern inner cities, but the relationship between poor people and authorities is a big difference.

3) How is social perception different? How is the social perception of poor inner-city black communities make life tougher for them than the social perception impact on rural poor white communities?

White privilege. It doesn't make a difference internally. But it does mean that poor whites who are able to leave home are more likely to find acceptance and opportunities in more prosperous areas that poor blacks who attempt the same.
YokelRidesAgain
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AG
Texaggie7nine said:

I thought the book was about southern culture which isn't poor by any means. My mistake. It's about just the poor white southerners.
It isn't about that, either. Vance is from a Rust Belt town in Ohio. The "hillbilly" in the title refers to his family's Appalachian roots (Kentucky), but the poverty and social disintegration described is set in Ohio.

His grandparents--who, while not perfect, were far and away the best thing he had going for him--were raised in Kentucky and are portrayed in a positive light, overall.

Why don't you stop enlightening us with your impressions of a book you haven't read?
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
AGC
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AG
White privilege - the new original sin.
Sapper Redux
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aggiegamecock said:

White privilege - the new original sin.


It exists. I'm not suggesting punishing anyone for its existence, but it's dumb to ignore it because you don't like it.
Texaggie7nine
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Quote:

Why don't you stop enlightening us with your impressions of a book you haven't read?


I'm just going by what those that have read it on this thread say its about. Apparently it's about poor white people who apparently are a big thing in the south.
7nine
AggieRain
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aggiegamecock said:

White privilege - the new original sin.
Just the (not so) latest catch phrase of the academic elite and coastal bastions of higher thought. I have my own to counter it. Personal Responsibility.
YokelRidesAgain
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AG
Dr. Watson said:

aggiegamecock said:

White privilege - the new original sin.


It exists. I'm not suggesting punishing anyone for its existence, but it's dumb to ignore it because you don't like it.
Vance talks about this in the book, from both aspects. If you are a socioeconomically disadvantaged white person from a community where the vast majority of people are white (not at all uncommon in New England, the Rust Belt, and the Upper Midwest), your "white privilege" is more theoretical than real, and the assertion that it exists is an object of confusion and frustration to people in those communities.

It doesn't change the fact that if you send a white male "hillbilly" to Yale Law and dress him in a suit, there are favorable assumptions about him on the basis of his appearance that he gets from law enforcement, potential employers, and society as a whole, that are not granted to a black person. Having pulled himself out of poverty, he gets to enjoy the advantages our society grants to people with his skin tone.

What "coastal elites" don't seem to get is that white privilege is not particularly helpful at all when it comes to escaping poverty in the first place.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
YokelRidesAgain
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AG
= said:

I'm just going by what those that have read it on this thread say its about. Apparently it's about poor white people who apparently are a big thing in the south.
It is a memoir of his experiences as a product of a particularly community (Scots-Irish with roots in Appalachia, many of whom migrated to the North after WWII for economic opportunity). That's not to say that some of the experiences couldn't apply to communities elsewhere in the country, but the book is not about "the South" (particularly the Deep South of the Confederacy) at all.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Texaggie7nine
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Ok that makes more sense.
7nine
AGC
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AG
YokelRidesAgain said:

Dr. Watson said:

aggiegamecock said:

White privilege - the new original sin.


It exists. I'm not suggesting punishing anyone for its existence, but it's dumb to ignore it because you don't like it.
Vance talks about this in the book, from both aspects. If you are a socioeconomically disadvantaged white person from a community where the vast majority of people are white (not at all uncommon in New England, the Rust Belt, and the Upper Midwest), your "white privilege" is more theoretical than real, and the assertion that it exists is an object of confusion and frustration to people in those communities.

It doesn't change the fact that if you send a white male "hillbilly" to Yale Law and dress him in a suit, there are favorable assumptions about him on the basis of his appearance that he gets from law enforcement, potential employers, and society as a whole, that are not granted to a black person. Having pulled himself out of poverty, he gets to enjoy the advantages our society grants to people with his skin tone.

What "coastal elites" don't seem to get is that white privilege is not particularly helpful at all when it comes to escaping poverty in the first place.



One of the best summations I've seen. I'd also add that the first paragraph feeds the second. The Yales are full of white people who don't know poor whites but do know poor blacks and they make racial judgments accordingly (or statistical ones).

The concept of white privilege erases class in our society and replaces it with skin color, creating a new marginalized group that has the 'right' skin color but no ability to take advantage of it, along with no legal protections and who can be openly bullied at will ('clinging to guns and religion', etc).
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