Israel Plants Flag on Holiest Christian Site
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Last: 7 yr ago by SeattleAgJr
Planting an Israeli flag on one of the holiest sites in Christianity is just petty. We're not going to start a war or kill anyone over it. That site has no Jewish religious significance at all. There are plenty other buildings in the "Palestinian" area is they want to practice political aggression. This is just a bunch of people being jerks.
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Being reported by the pure and holy. Riiight.
opk said:
Being reported by the pure and holy. Riiight.
Is the report inaccurate? From what I witnessed while in the West Bank for 2 weeks, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. However, the report could be inaccurate, so if you have more information, please do share.
Meh. Places aren't really that important, it's the meaning and words of Christianity that matter.
Yeah, I don't really see the issue here.
What was the point of putting the flag there?
The report is most likely to be accurate. No biggie? True. My point: IMO, that news source is reporting it just to stir up some animosity.RetiredAg said:opk said:
Being reported by the pure and holy. Riiight.
Is the report inaccurate? From what I witnessed while in the West Bank for 2 weeks, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. However, the report could be inaccurate, so if you have more information, please do share.
Would it be no big deal if Muslims planted their flag in the same place?
Is it any different than a US flag on church property here at home?
747Ag said:
Is it any different than a US flag on church property here at home?
Yes. Because the U.S. is done colonizing North America. Israel is still going at it full bore. It's a symbolic gesture loaded with meaning. Something we might call a "dick move" here in the states.
opk said:The report is most likely to be accurate. No biggie? True. My point: IMO, that news source is reporting it just to stir up some animosity.RetiredAg said:opk said:
Being reported by the pure and holy. Riiight.
Is the report inaccurate? From what I witnessed while in the West Bank for 2 weeks, this doesn't surprise me in the slightest. However, the report could be inaccurate, so if you have more information, please do share.
Shouldn't the fault for any animosity be directed at the ones actually doing the act, not those reporting it?
If the story is accurate, the fault lies with Israel for doing something that was unnecessarily provocative and that they absolutely knew would not be well received.
747Ag said:
Is it any different than a US flag on church property here at home?
I would compare it more to someone planting a flag from a Muslim nation on a Christian church in America. Or someone planting any flag on one of the traditional peace churches, such as Mennonites, where you typically don't see national flags being flown. And doing so against the will of these churches.
Think about finding an Italian flag forcibly placed on the Vatican, and it's a little worse than that.
The Church in the OP is in Palestinian territory, as per the international community and government of Israel. Some Israeli Jews think there shouldn't be an Palestinian territory, so they start settlements or plant flags in Palestinian areas to demonstrate territorial ownership. Nearly all the Christians in Israel are Palestinian, and certainly the community around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre are predominately Palestinian Christians. So the message being sent is that some Israeli Jews think they should own this territory.
It's one step worse than that, though. Under the British, each religion was responsible for maintaining and governing it's own religious sites. This has continued under the Israeli governement, and therefore the Israeli government does not currently have any jurisdiction over the Church of the Holy Sepulchre even if it weren't in Palestinian territory. So whoever placed the flag was not just trying to make a political statement about Palestinian/Israel territory politics, they were also making a religious statement that one of the holiest sites in Christianity should be under Jewish control. I can only think the point was to make a statement that Christians aren't welcome either in Jerusalem or Israel at large.
Like I said above, just boils down to some people being jerks, and Christians won't make a big deal over it. It still gives a nice look into the mindset of some (hopefully fringe) Israeli Jews.
The Church in the OP is in Palestinian territory, as per the international community and government of Israel. Some Israeli Jews think there shouldn't be an Palestinian territory, so they start settlements or plant flags in Palestinian areas to demonstrate territorial ownership. Nearly all the Christians in Israel are Palestinian, and certainly the community around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre are predominately Palestinian Christians. So the message being sent is that some Israeli Jews think they should own this territory.
It's one step worse than that, though. Under the British, each religion was responsible for maintaining and governing it's own religious sites. This has continued under the Israeli governement, and therefore the Israeli government does not currently have any jurisdiction over the Church of the Holy Sepulchre even if it weren't in Palestinian territory. So whoever placed the flag was not just trying to make a political statement about Palestinian/Israel territory politics, they were also making a religious statement that one of the holiest sites in Christianity should be under Jewish control. I can only think the point was to make a statement that Christians aren't welcome either in Jerusalem or Israel at large.
Like I said above, just boils down to some people being jerks, and Christians won't make a big deal over it. It still gives a nice look into the mindset of some (hopefully fringe) Israeli Jews.
No material on this site is intended to be a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. See full Medical Disclaimer.
Excellent post.ramblin_ag02 said:
Think about finding an Italian flag forcibly placed on the Vatican, and it's a little worse than that.
The Church in the OP is in Palestinian territory, as per the international community and government of Israel. Some Israeli Jews think there shouldn't be an Palestinian territory, so they start settlements or plant flags in Palestinian areas to demonstrate territorial ownership. Nearly all the Christians in Israel are Palestinian, and certainly the community around the Church of the Holy Sepulchre are predominately Palestinian Christians. So the message being sent is that some Israeli Jews think they should own this territory.
It's one step worse than that, though. Under the British, each religion was responsible for maintaining and governing it's own religious sites. This has continued under the Israeli governement, and therefore the Israeli government does not currently have any jurisdiction over the Church of the Holy Sepulchre even if it weren't in Palestinian territory. So whoever placed the flag was not just trying to make a political statement about Palestinian/Israel territory politics, they were also making a religious statement that one of the holiest sites in Christianity should be under Jewish control. I can only think the point was to make a statement that Christians aren't welcome either in Jerusalem or Israel at large.
Like I said above, just boils down to some people being jerks, and Christians won't make a big deal over it. It still gives a nice look into the mindset of some (hopefully fringe) Israeli Jews.
This is no big deal. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is in Israel, not the Palestinian Territory.
wbt5845 said:
This is no big deal. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is in Israel, not the Palestinian Territory.
In fact it is in land occupied illegally by Israel and its annexation was rejected by the UN. The world regards it as part of Palestine. But believe whatever you want.
Pull up Wikipedia for Church of the Holy Sepulchre and look at the "Status Quo" section. I should laugh, but I can't help it
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Marco Esquandolas said:wbt5845 said:
This is no big deal. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is in Israel, not the Palestinian Territory.
In fact it is in land occupied illegally by Israel and its annexation was rejected by the UN. The world regards it as part of Palestine. But believe whatever you want.
"Illegally"? On what basis? Illegal would suggest Israel broke a law to take that land. They possess it because the Arabs started a war with them and Israel kicked their ass. They have right of conquest to that land.
wbt5845 said:Marco Esquandolas said:wbt5845 said:
This is no big deal. The Church of the Holy Sepulchre is in Israel, not the Palestinian Territory.
In fact it is in land occupied illegally by Israel and its annexation was rejected by the UN. The world regards it as part of Palestine. But believe whatever you want.
"Illegally"? On what basis? Illegal would suggest Israel broke a law to take that land. They possess it because the Arabs started a war with them and Israel kicked their ass. They have right of conquest to that land.
No, no they do not.
How come the UN doesn't condemn Russia for their "illegal occupation" of Kaliningrad or China for their "illegal occupation" of Tibet?
Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is a violation of the Geneva Convention, of which Israel is a signatory. It's occupied territory, and planting a flag at Christian holy site is an affront to Palestinian Christians. As ramblin_ag02 correctly points out, it is a violation of the status quo agreement about holy sites in Jerusalem that goes all the way back to the 1600s.
Marco,
Glad to see you posting here again. Seems like it's been a while. This thread reminds me that I still need to share what I saw in the West Bank. Was just an unreal experience.
Glad to see you posting here again. Seems like it's been a while. This thread reminds me that I still need to share what I saw in the West Bank. Was just an unreal experience.
I disagree that the sight has no Jewish religious significance. For "Jesus" was/is a Jew. Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back? Maybe, as more and more Jews realize that Yeshua was a righteous Jew, that He lived a life following the Torah and the traditions, that they can see what all He did for the Jewish people. They are not going to claim that He is divine, but it takes a step and then another. All of the land of Israel is God's to do with as He wishes. God gave the land to Abraham and to His seed. It belongs to those who walk in His ways.
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that that was likely not their motivation.Quote:
Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back?
Lol. The man claiming to be God is a righteous Jew who followed the Torah? If He is not God, he certainly did not follow the Torah.agie95 said:
Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back? Maybe, as more and more Jews realize that Yeshua was a righteous Jew, that He lived a life following the Torah and the traditions, that they can see what all He did for the Jewish people.
"You have heard it said... But I say..."
Drum5343 said:Lol. The man claiming to be God is a righteous Jew who followed the Torah? If He is not God, he certainly did not follow the Torah.agie95 said:
Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back? Maybe, as more and more Jews realize that Yeshua was a righteous Jew, that He lived a life following the Torah and the traditions, that they can see what all He did for the Jewish people.
"You have heard it said... But I say..."
agie95 said:
I disagree that the sight has no Jewish religious significance. For "Jesus" was/is a Jew. Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back? Maybe, as more and more Jews realize that Yeshua was a righteous Jew, that He lived a life following the Torah and the traditions, that they can see what all He did for the Jewish people. They are not going to claim that He is divine, but it takes a step and then another. All of the land of Israel is God's to do with as He wishes. God gave the land to Abraham and to His seed. It belongs to those who walk in His ways.
LOL! Yeah, it was done to show Jewish support for Jesus.
It's utterly peculiar the hoops some Christians will jump through to defend Israel.agie95 said:
I disagree that the sight has no Jewish religious significance. For "Jesus" was/is a Jew. Maybe Israel wants to claim Him back? Maybe, as more and more Jews realize that Yeshua was a righteous Jew, that He lived a life following the Torah and the traditions, that they can see what all He did for the Jewish people. They are not going to claim that He is divine, but it takes a step and then another. All of the land of Israel is God's to do with as He wishes. God gave the land to Abraham and to His seed. It belongs to those who walk in His ways.
It was probably some dumbass Hassid on welfare with nothing but time and a chip on his shoulder, and nothing going for him except his identity as the seed of Abraham. Figured he show all those Bead rattling tourists who's boss. Usually they just spit when they pass by these cursed edifices but this was no big deal.
Maybe not, but you don't know....
Kosher Jesus written by an Orthodox Jew:
Kosher Jesus is a project of more than six years research and writing. The book seeks to offer to Jews and Christians the real story of Jesus, a wholly observant, Pharisaic Rabbi who fought Roman paganism and oppression and was killed for it. While many Christians will be confused by its assertion that Jesus never claimed divinity and not only did not abrogate the Torah but observed every letter of the Law, they will find comfort in my tracing most of Jesus principal teachings back to Jewish sources, this before he was stripped of his Jewishness by later writers who sought to portray him as an enemy of his people......But as Christians and Jews now come together to love and support the majestic and humane Jewish state, it s time that Christians rediscover the deep Jewishness and religious Jewish commitment of Jesus, while Jews reexamine a lost son who was murdered by a brutal Roman state who sought to impose Roman culture and rule upon a tiny yet stubborn nation who will never be severed from their eternal covenant with the G-d of Israel.
Kosher Jesus written by an Orthodox Jew:
Kosher Jesus is a project of more than six years research and writing. The book seeks to offer to Jews and Christians the real story of Jesus, a wholly observant, Pharisaic Rabbi who fought Roman paganism and oppression and was killed for it. While many Christians will be confused by its assertion that Jesus never claimed divinity and not only did not abrogate the Torah but observed every letter of the Law, they will find comfort in my tracing most of Jesus principal teachings back to Jewish sources, this before he was stripped of his Jewishness by later writers who sought to portray him as an enemy of his people......But as Christians and Jews now come together to love and support the majestic and humane Jewish state, it s time that Christians rediscover the deep Jewishness and religious Jewish commitment of Jesus, while Jews reexamine a lost son who was murdered by a brutal Roman state who sought to impose Roman culture and rule upon a tiny yet stubborn nation who will never be severed from their eternal covenant with the G-d of Israel.
I am not a Christian...just sayin'
Majestic and humane? Are you serious?! Have you ever been over there, especially the West Bank? Nothing I saw in my 2 weeks traveling throughout the WB would be considered "humane" as far as it relates to Israel.Quote:
But as Christians and Jews now come together to love and support the majestic and humane Jewish state
Which is why I didn't say that it wasn't their motivation w/ absolute certainty. I said I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that it likely was not their motivation. Nothing you shared would support such a reach on your part though.Quote:
Maybe not, but you don't know....
That's the first honest thing you've ever said.agie95 said:
I am not a Christian...just sayin'
Do you believe Jesus was divine and the Son of God? Or is this more like you don't like what the label "Christian" has become so you shun it but still believe in tenets of the Christian faith?agie95 said:
I am not a Christian...just sayin'
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