Law and Grace

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Bracy
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Jesus did not die on the cross so that we could continue sinning.

Keep the above in mind, because that is the theme of this message.

1 John 3:4 tells us that “sin” is “transgression of the law.”

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1 John 3:4: “Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law; for sin is the transgression of the law.”


Clearly, John is telling us that breaking the laws of God is sin. If we break God’s Laws, we are sinning. It’s that simple.

Paul tells us that if it wasn’t for the law, we would not know what sin is:

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Romans 7:7: What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."


The Law is what tells us what is sin, and what is not. It tells us what is pleasing to God, and what is not. Paul is telling us that he would not have known what sin *IS* if it wasn’t for the Law.

The wages of sin is death. Death, is the inevitable result of sin. It is the punishment for the transgression of God’s Laws.

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Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


The wages for the transgression of God’s Laws, is death.

Jesus died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.

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2 Corinthians 5:21: God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.


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John 3:16: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


Jesus was the sacrifice for the forgiveness of our sins.

There is a HUGE difference between the “forgiveness of our sins,” and “excusing us for sinning.” The modern-day church teaches us that Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning.

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Hebrews 10:26: If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left,


If we continue to sin, after receiving and believing in the atoning death of Jesus, Our Savior, there is no sacrifice left for us. We *cannot* continue to sin. Jesus’ died on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins, but He *DID NOT* die in order to allow us to continue sinning.

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Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, `I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”


Many Christians, who believed in, and accepted the atoning blood of Jesus Christ will be told to depart from Him because they continued to do evil – they continued to SIN.

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Revelation 14:12: This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God's commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.


We are expected to remain faithful to Jesus by continuing to obey God’s Commandments.

Jesus said that the Greatest Commandment is to love the Lord Your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind:

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Matthew 22:36-40: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: `Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


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Luke 10:25-37: On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


Jesus, who was born in the flesh and died for the forgiveness of our sins, wrote the Ten Commandments in stone, with His own finger. The first four Commandments deal with sins against God directly. By breaking the first four Commandments, we are thumbing our noses at God. Those laws are:

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1) Exodus 20:3: You shall have no other gods before Me.
2) Exodus 20:4-6: You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep My Commandments.
3) Exodus 20:7: You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses His name.
4) Exodus 20:8: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and dow all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Jesus taught that the greatest commandment was to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.”

Jesus also said:

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Exodus 23:13: "Be careful to do everything I have said to you. Do not invoke the names of other gods; do not let them be heard on your lips.


We are not to even SPEAK the names of other gods. We are commanded to not even let those names be HEARD FROM OUR LIPS.

How then, can we claim to love the Lord Our God with all our heart, with all our soul, and with all our mind, if we continue to break the first four Commandments???

We show our appreciation for the blood of Jesus, which was poured out for the FORGIVENESS OF OUR SINS so that we may inherit everlasting life, by labeling our celebration of that wonderful event with the name of SATAN WORSHIP! (I mention his name only in order to make the point, and identify our sin).

Can we truly claim to be loving the Lord Our God with all our heart, and with all our soul, when we continue the practices and traditions that were devoted to Satan??????

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Mark 7:6-8: He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

"'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."


The Jews believed that they could keep God’s Laws in the flesh. Christians believe they can break God’s Laws in the Spirit. Both are wrong.


[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/11/2002).]
Bracy
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quote:

While it is true that legal matters can become very confusing, it must be remembered that Gods laws are plain and simple. They can be written in one paragraph, memorized by the smallest child and as the Bible states, are not grievous.

In an age when many turn the grace of God into lasciviousness, there are those, professing themselves to be wise, who attempt to persuade that the laws of God are now void and of no value. Such persuasion can be described in no better way than what the Bible calls "vain deceit."

Jesus Christ, our Creator, the law giver, and our Savior said that until heaven and earth pass away, not even the slightest thing concerning the law will change. We are told that sin is the transgression of the law and that Christ died for the remission of sins. In fact, if any of the commandments could have been changed, sin could have been redefined, and He would not have had to die.

We are also given Biblical warning that through the sacrificial death of Christ - as payment for our sins - and through faith in his shed blood, we receive forgiveness only for sins that are past - and that if we sin willingly, once we have come to the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin, certain judgment and ultimate destruction.

We are told however, that if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Only if we confess our sins.

Now if the servants of Satan can persuade us that God's laws are invalid, then sin, which is the transgression of those laws would never be confessed - and the wages of unconfessed sin is death.

Yes, Satan, our adversary as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. Be sober, be vigilant and remember "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law..."

SAVED BY GRACE
“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.” ......Ephesians 2:8-9

There is no law that can be kept in order to establish ones own righteousness; for “There is none righteous, no, not one: ......Romans 3:10 No man has ever fulfilled the righteous obligations of the law to the point that he has not known sin. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. ......Romans 3:20 “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:” ......Romans 7:7

“For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” ......Romans 3:23-26

Sin is the transgression of the law. By the law is the knowledge of sin. Jesus knew no sin because he kept the law perfectly. Only the righteousness of Christ could ever fulfill the righteous obligations of the law. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” ......2 Corinthians 5:21

There is a penalty for sin “for the wages of sin is death” and “without shedding of blood is no remission” of sins. Jesus Christ, who knew no sin, was “made... to be sin” for those who will accept His righteous shed blood as the only sufficient payment for their sins. They are made the “righteousness of God in Him.” ......2 Corinthians 5:21

“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”......Romans 10:4 Not the end of the law

“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” ......Matthew 5:18

“Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.”......Romans 3:31

Many people, known as “Jews”, thought that they could keep God’s laws in “the flesh” and obtain eternal life. Many people, known as “Christians”, think that they can break God’s laws in “the Spirit” and obtain eternal life. Scripture proves that both lines of thought are in error. Both groups of people have “trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant... an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace.” ....Hebrews 10:29

Those who seek salvation “by works of the law” are despising the Spirit of grace by rejecting it, and those who “continue in sin” are despising the Spirit of grace through it’s abuse.

The Apostle Paul tells us that “Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness...because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law.” He also tells us that those calling themselves Christians, who attempt to “continue in sin that grace may abound” and who obey not “unto righteousness”, yield themselves to “sin unto death.” ......Romans 6:15-16

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law” ......1 John 3:4 Christ Jesus was “set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;” ......Romans 3:25

Jesus paid the penalty for “sins that are past.” He did not die that we may practice or, “continue in sin.” If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” ......1 John 1:9 “...If we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries... It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” ......Hebrews 10:26-31

“Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” ......1 John 3:6-10

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. ......Romans 6:22-23

Those who accept, through faith, the gracious free gift of the righteousness of Christ and who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit are “free from the law of sin and death.” Jesus has paid the death penalty for “sins that are past” and believers have been given the “holy Spirit of promise”, “the earnest of our inheritance,", that we may walk after the spirit and thereby not practice sin.

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” ......Romans 8:1-9

“Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” ......Revelation 14:12

-- Richard Rives, Too Long in the Sun
SiValleyAg68
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AG
Bracy, You started out real good, but then you make an unsubstantiated, unbelievable error.
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There is a HUGE difference between the “forgiveness of our sins,” and “excusing us for sinning.” The modern-day church teaches us that Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning.
I have never heard ANY church claim that “Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning”.
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Many Christians, who believed in, and accepted the atoning blood of Jesus Christ will be told to depart from Him because they continued to do evil – they continued to SIN.
The text of Matthew 7:21-23 does not validate that Jesus is speaking to REAL believers. There are many who claim to be Christians who are really not. You can see it by the “fruit “ they bear.
However, there is a problem with some who claim Jesus as their savior, but do not commit themselves to His Lordship. There are others who are claiming Jesus as their savior and Lord but are deluded in their doctrines.

I disagree with your numbering of the commandments, but that is probably not germane to the issue. The commandments, which you numbered as #1 & #2, are just number 1. Hence, there are 3 commandments toward God and 7 commandments toward our neighbors.
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1.) "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. 3 "You shall have no other gods before me. 4 "You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.
2.) 7 "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
3.) 8 "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
verses 2 through 6 clearly are ONE thing. The graven images are “other gods” mentioned in verse 2.
The Reformers broke out verse 3 – 6 in order to seem to have a case against the RCC for making statues of the saints. But to their credit, while the RCC does not teach that they are gods nor are they to be worshipped, there is a crossing of the line in the immature RC’s. I have heard a Hispanic Priest condemn the improper worshipping of statues (pointing to Hispanics at that time, although it is prevalent elsewhere as well).
The other difference (in the numbering) is that the RCC breaks out coveting of the neighbor’s wife as commandment 9 and coveting the neighbor’s goods as commandment 10, since there is an obvious distinction there – the marriage being a unity representing God, but the ownership of things not the same.


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We are not to even SPEAK the names of other gods. We are commanded to not even let those names be HEARD FROM OUR LIPS.
Does that include typing their names on this forum?
While abstaining from using their names might be a mark of Holiness, what is really intended is not speaking their names believing they exist or have any power.
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The Jews believed that they could keep God’s Laws in the flesh. Christians believe they can break God’s Laws in the Spirit. Both are wrong.
Again, what “Christians believe they can break God’s Laws in the Spirit”? None of whom I have heard.

This seems to be the building of a strawman.


[This message has been edited by SiValleyAg68 (edited 3/11/2002).]
SiValleyAg68
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AG
Bracy,
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“Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”......Romans 10:4 Not the end of the law
The word “end” here does not mean the “cessation of the law” but the “goal of the law” although, it could be argued that reaching the goal of the Law causes certain cessation. I guess the theme of this thread is leading to that discussion.

Richard Rives seems to be painting a picture of black and white, which does not exist in this world. Even Paul claimed to be still sinning.
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14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,
23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:14-25 RSV

So one must weigh the meanings of the two Epistles (John's and Paul's) together to know what they are both saying about a true believer’s sin nature.


[This message has been edited by SiValleyAg68 (edited 3/11/2002).]
Bracy
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SiValleyAg68:

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I have never heard ANY church claim that “Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning”.


I have a hard time believing that. The Southern Baptist Convention teaches a "once saved, always saved" doctrine, for instance.

The church teaches that we are no longer under the law. That's not what the scriptures teach. The churches teach that we do not have to celebrate the Feasts of the Lord, the food laws, observe the Sabbath on the *seventh* day, etc. The church teaches that it's okay to celebrate Christmas and Easter, to make graven images, to paint Easter eggs, decorate Christmas trees, etc.

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The text of Matthew 7:21-23 does not validate that Jesus is speaking to REAL believers. There are many who claim to be Christians who are really not. You can see it by the “fruit “ they bear.


I don't believe you are correct. The believers mentioned are performing miracles, casting out demons, and prophesying in the name of Jesus. Those are good works, or "fruits."

When Jesus was confronted for casting out demons, He was accused of casting them out in the name of Beelzebul. Jesus' reply was that a house divided against itself cannot stand.

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I disagree with your numbering of the commandments, but that is probably not germane to the issue. The commandments, which you numbered as #1 & #2, are just number 1. Hence, there are 3 commandments toward God and 7 commandments toward our neighbors.


Disagree all you want to, I took them straight from the book of Exodus in the order in which they appear.

Commandments #1 and #2 are *NOT* the same commandment. #1 commands us not to worship other gods. #2 commands us not to make graven images.

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The Reformers broke out verse 3 – 6 in order to seem to have a case against the RCC for making statues of the saints. But to their credit, while the RCC does not teach that they are gods nor are they to be worshipped, there is a crossing of the line in the immature RC’s. I have heard a Hispanic Priest condemn the improper worshipping of statues (pointing to Hispanics at that time, although it is prevalent elsewhere as well).


The scriptures clearly say not to make such images, therefore doing so is a direct act of disobedience.

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The other difference (in the numbering) is that the RCC breaks out coveting of the neighbor’s wife as commandment 9 and coveting the neighbor’s goods as commandment 10, since there is an obvious distinction there – the marriage being a unity representing God, but the ownership of things not the same.


Right now, I'm dealing with the first four commandments. I haven't touched on the other six.

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Does that include typing their names on this forum?


Did you intentionally ignore the fact that I said "I mention his name only in order to make the point, and identify our sin," or did you just happen to miss it?

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While abstaining from using their names might be a mark of Holiness, what is really intended is not speaking their names believing they exist or have any power.


I gave the scriptural evidence. If you don't believe it means what it says it means, then show me some proof.

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Again, what “Christians believe they can break God’s Laws in the Spirit”?


I thought that should be abundantly obvious by now. Celebrating Christmas, Easter, -- days that were devoted to the worship of Satan through sun-god worship, and celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday -- again this goes back to ancient sun-god worship -- is in direct violation of the Commandments of God. Christmas trees, Easter eggs, Easter bunnies, etc are almost as old as the earth itself. They are all symbols of sun-god worship, tracing all the way back to the days of Nimrod. By using the symbols, we carry on the memory of these false gods, and deny the Lord Our God the glory He deserves. We cannot claim to love the Lord Our God with all our hearts, and all our souls, and all our minds while continuing to celebrate these abominable festivals and say we're doing it for the Lord.

Bracy


[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/11/2002).]
Physics96
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Again, we don't even agree on what the law is! Greatheart and I pointed out that the law of the New Covenant is not identical to the Mosaic law, as noted in Galatians. I concur with SiValleyAg in his assessment of Romans 10,4, and most responsible commentators (including the Catholic Church) agree that at the very least, Christ has perfectly interpreted Mosaic law in His commandments. How can there be a New Covenant if the law is unchanging? How is the Covenant New if it only assists us to follow the Old?

Turning to your point about the blasphemy of celebrations, we have to interpret these things in light of our hearts, as the Christian law should indeed be interpreted. In the ancient Jewish culture, to speak the name of a supernatural being was to invoke its power. Thus, to speak another god's name was to concede their reality, and in that way "worship" them. In the modern day, we do not even believe that these "gods" exist at all, and we understand myth and fiction. Thus, we don't blaspheme to speak the name of a "god" that we don't believe in. Similarly, consecrating pagan customs to God was used to take erroneous teachings and put them in their proper perspective. As mentioned in Acts, nothing is wrong with using unnecessary practices to bring people of other cultures to God, so long as those practices are not sinful. In the example you cited, the Jews who spoke the names would have been sinning, because to speak the name was to profess belief in the thing. Today, our language is not structured in that way.

For the sake of completeness,

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Jesus Christ, our Creator, the law giver, and our Savior said that until heaven and earth pass away, not even the slightest thing concerning the law will change. We are told that sin is the transgression of the law and that Christ died for the remission of sins. In fact, if any of the commandments could have been changed, sin could have been redefined, and He would not have had to die.


This understanding denies the New Covenant that Jesus said he was establishing. If the rules may not change, how is this a New Covenant? [Edit] Furthermore, why does Jesus then immediately proceed with the formula "You have heard it said...But I say to you" (the antitheses)? The reasonable understanding in the light of the antitheses (some of which change Mosaic law) is that Jesus's Commandments supersede the Mosaic law when "heaven and earth pass" (i.e., when Jesus dies and is resurrected).

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"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: "`Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, `Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."


Do you mean to say that all of the Mosaic Law is contained in these statements? Or is it just the Ten Commandments? If it is just the Ten Commandments, where do the Jewish feast days come in?

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For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."


Stands for the unremarkable proposition that the Old Testament Law provides moral teaching, a proposition with which I have never disagreed.

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The modern-day church teaches us that Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning.


Not my "modern-day" Church. We have a Sacrament known as Reconciliation for these cases.

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"'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."



If anything, this falls exactly in line with Paul in Colossians and Galatians. It's not particularly what you do that matters; it is the content of your heart.



[This message has been edited by Physics96 (edited 3/11/2002).]
Bracy
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Physics96:

quote:
Again, we don't even agree on what the law is! Greatheart and I pointed out that the law of the New Covenant is not identical to the Mosaic law, as noted in Galatians. I concur with SiValleyAg in his assessment of Romans 10,4, and most responsible commentators (including the Catholic Church) agree that at the very least, Christ has perfectly interpreted Mosaic law in His commandments. How can there be a New Covenant if the law is unchanging? How is the Covenant New if it only assists us to follow the Old?


In the Old Testament Law, *ALL* of the sacrifices -- the sin offerings, the guilt offerings, the fellowship offerings, etc -- were for the forgiveness of *UN*-intentional sin. There was no sacrifice for the forgiveness of *intentional* sin. All of the sacrifices were for unintentional sin only.

So, what were the Jews to do for the forgiveness of *intentional* sin? All have sinned, willfully, and intentionally.

The answer was in *Passover.* The blood of the sacrificial lamb of Passover covered the intentional sin each year until the Lamb of God came to take away the sins of the world.

That is why the first words from the lips of John the Baptist, when he saw Jesus for the first time, were: "Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world."

Jesus' death serves as the *final sacrifice*. This is why we no longer have to continue sacrifices, He was that final sacrifice for the sins of the world.

*THAT* is the New Covenant.

But this, in no way, means that we are not obligated to follow the *other* laws of the Torah: observance of the Sabbath, the food laws, etc.

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Turning to your point about the blasphemy of celebrations, we have to interpret these things in light of our hearts, as the Christian law should indeed be interpreted.


That is an incorrect assumption. Man's heart is sinful. We need to interpret these things in light of what God desires, not what we desire.

quote:
In the ancient Jewish culture, to speak the name of a supernatural being was to invoke its power. Thus, to speak another god's name was to concede their reality, and in that way "worship" them. In the modern day, we do not even believe that these "gods" exist at all, and we understand myth and fiction. Thus, we don't blaspheme to speak the name of a "god" that we don't believe in.


Another incorrect assumption. The worship of these gods is the worship of Satan.

From Ancient times, beginning in the days of Nimrod, sun worship has been the apostate form of religion which Satan has chosen to oppose the true worship of the Lord Our God. Through every known civilization sun worship influenced the thoughts and actions of mankind.

The Chaldeans, Assyrians, Babylonians, Medo-Persians, Grecians, and Romans -- *ALL* were sun-god worshippers. And now, even today, the practices and traditions of sun worship is disguised to the extent that it is now accepted by the majority as that of Biblical Christianity.

Satan has chosen sun-worship as his own religion. The name "Lucifer" itself means "Light." He has identified himself with the sun.

Sun-worship is spoken of *throughout* the Old Testament, and it's practices and traditions are strictly forbidden.

Sun worship is the worship of Satan, plain and simple. The inclusion of sun-worship practices and traditions within our own worship of Jesus is the inclusion of Satanic practices and traditions.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Ishtar was called the "Goddess of the Dawn." Venus is called "The Morning Star." Lucifer was called "The Morning Star," and "Son of the Dawn."

quote:
Isaiah 14:12-14: How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!


Do you not see the connection?

(Note: I'll get to the other points of your message later today, I just didn't have time to get to all of them in one sitting).

Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/11/2002).]
Physics96
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Actually, I'm more confused than ever.

* Point #1
quote:

until the Lamb of God came to take away the sins of the world.


We are interpreting the same concept in drastically different ways. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that:
(1) Jesus does replace the sacrificial aspect of Passover, but
(2) He commanded us to continue celebrating Passover at the Last Supper.

That doesn't make a great deal of sense to me if Jesus is a perpetual sacrifice for the Passover. How does confession work into your theology? And if you recognize confession, what is the role of Passover? Catholics view the Eucharist as the fulfillment of Passover (obviating that feast), and that Jesus was beginning a Sacrament that has the purpose of Communion with God, not forgiveness of sins. In this sense, we do celebrate the modified Passover that God instituted, but as you said, since Jesus's sacrifice, the significance is different.

* Point #2:
Please elucidate on your understanding of Galatians. I just don't understand how you reconcile this text with what you are saying about the Mosaic law. Perhaps an analogy would be appropriate to illustrate my perspective.
In the Old Testament, the people of Israel were like children of the faith. Christianity is the mature faith. You don't tell a child "use this stove only for its proper purpose" because they do not know enough to know what the proper purpose is. Instead, you say "don't touch the stove." But since Jesus, we have a mature understanding of the faith, so we understand the significance of the commands. To me, this is what Paul is saying about the relationship of Christians to God as Abba, one of mutual trust rather than simply lawgiver.

Point #3:
quote:

That is an incorrect assumption. Man's heart is sinful. We need to interpret these things in light of what God desires, not what we desire.


I was referring to the basis by which God judges us, not saying that our hearts cannot be misled.

Point #4:
quote:

The inclusion of sun-worship practices and traditions within our own worship of Jesus is the inclusion of Satanic practices and traditions.


I don't even understand what this means. What is a "sun-worship practice" or a "Satanic practice"? Either you worship the Sun (or the Devil), or you don't. Either you sin, or you don't. Certainly, human sacrifice like the Aztecs or the use of magical spells or curses or even a sincere belief in other supernatural powers equal to God is sinful. But I don't understand how simple actions, like Easter egg hunts or putting up a Christmas tree, are per se wrong simply because they have been used by pagans. Is fasting wrong because Muslims also fast? Is lighting a candle wrong because primitive people worship fire? Is using wine in a ceremony wrong because the Romans used wine in the Bacchanalia? Is music sinful because Celtic festivals used music? This is where I draw the line: if a practice is sinful, it may never be part of a proper worship of God. Believing in other gods is sinful, human sacrifice is sinful, sexual rituals are sinful, but unless the act is sinful, there is no harm whatsoever in using a particular act for Christian worship.

Edit -- This is not to suggest that there are not minimum requirements for Christian worship (e.g., the Sacraments), but merely says that the Mosaic law is not part of them.

[This message has been edited by Physics96 (edited 3/11/2002).]

[This message has been edited by Physics96 (edited 3/11/2002).]
Greatheart
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THIS POST IS NOT AS LONG AS YOU THINK. MORE THAN HALF OF IT IS OPTIONAL SCRIPTURE REFRENCE.


quote:

The modern-day church teaches us that Jesus’ death excuses us for sinning.



These are called Antinomians, and it has been condemned as heresy by Rome and the Reformed. The Dispensationalists who have left the path of the Historic church’s views have again embraced this heresy. Charles Ryrie (Author of the popular Bible, and professor at DTS) , is now teaching that people can take Christ as Savior but not as Lord. There are many Dispensationalists that embrace this theology. There is also of course Liberal theologians who teach such things as well.

Bracy of course mistakes, and falls off the horse on the other side. Heretics always embrace extremes, and understand no balance within Christianity. Bracy’s teachings are what Paul condemned in Galatians.


Here is a document of what most reformed church’s believe about Worship and the Sabbath day:


Chapter XXI
Of Religious Worship, and the Sabbath Day

I. The light of nature shows that there is a God, who has lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and does good unto all, and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart, and with all the soul, and with all the might.[1] But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God is instituted by Himself, and so limited by His own revealed will, that He may not be worshipped according to the imaginations and devices of men, or the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representation, or any other way not prescribed in the holy Scripture.[2]

II. Religious worship is to be given to God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; and to Him alone;[3] not to angels, saints, or any other creature:[4] and, since the fall, not without a Mediator; nor in the mediation of any other but of Christ alone.[5]

III. Prayer, with thanksgiving, being one special part of religious worship,[6] is by God required of all men:[7] and, that it may be accepted, it is to be made in the name of the Son,[8] by the help of His Spirit,[9] according to His will,[10] with understanding, reverence, humility, fervency, faith, love and perseverance;[11] and, if vocal, in a known tongue.[12]

IV. Prayer is to be made for things lawful;[13] and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter:[14] but not for the dead,[15] nor for those of whom it may be known that they have sinned the sin unto death.[16]

V. The reading of the Scriptures with godly fear,[17] the sound preaching[18] and conscionable hearing of the Word, in obedience unto God, with understanding, faith and reverence,[19] singing of psalms with grace in the heart;[20] as also, the due administration and worthy receiving of the sacraments instituted by Christ, are all parts of the ordinary religious worship of God:[21] beside religious oaths,[22] vows,[23] solemn fastings,[24] and thanksgivings upon special occasions,[25] which are, in their several times and seasons, to be used in an holy and religious manner.[26]

VI. Neither prayer, nor any other part of religious worship, is now, under the Gospel, either tied unto, or made more acceptable by any place in which it is performed, or towards which it is directed:[27] but God is to be worshipped everywhere,[28] in spirit and truth;[29] as, in private families[30] daily,[31] and in secret, each one by himself;[32] so, more solemnly in the public assemblies, which are not carelessly or wilfully to be neglected, or forsaken, when God, by His Word or providence, calls thereunto.[33]

VII. As it is the law of nature, that, in general, a due proportion of time be set apart for the worship of God; so, in His Word, by a positive, moral, and perpetual commandment binding all men in all ages, He has particularly appointed one day in seven, for a Sabbath, to be kept holy unto him:[34] which, from the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, was the last day of the week: and, from the resurrection of Christ, was changed into the first day of the week,[35] which, in Scripture, is called the Lord's Day,[36] and is to be continued to the end of the world, as the Christian Sabbath.[37]

VIII. This Sabbath is to be kept holy unto the Lord when men, after a due preparing of their hearts, and ordering of their common affairs beforehand, do not only observe an holy rest all the day from their own works, words, and thoughts about their wordly employments and recreations,[38] but also are taken up the whole time in the public and private exercises of His worship, and in the duties of necessity and mercy.[39]

=================================================

Scripture Reference:

[1] ROM 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse. ACT 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands. PSA 119:68 Thou art good, and doest good; teach me thy statutes. JER 10:7 Who would not fear thee, O King of nations? for to thee doth it appertain: forasmuch as among all the wise men of the nations, and in all their kingdoms, there is none like unto thee. PSA 31:23 O love the Lord, all ye his saints: for the Lord preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer. PSA 18:3 I will call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised: so shall I be saved from mine enemies. ROM 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. PSA 62:8 Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah. JOS 24:14 Now therefore fear the Lord, and serve him in sincerity and in truth: and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the flood, and in Egypt; and serve ye the Lord. MAR 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

[2] DEU 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it. MAT 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. ACT 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things. MAT 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. 10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. (see also DEU 15:-19) EXO 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; 6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

[3] MAT 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve. JOH 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him. 2CO 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[4] COL 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind. REV 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. ROM 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

[5] JOH 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 1TI 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. EPH 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. COL 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[6] PHI 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

[7] PSA 65:6 Which by his strength setteth fast the mountains; being girded with power.

[8] JOH 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. 1PE 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

[9] ROM 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

[10] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[11] PSA 47:7 For God is the King of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding. ECC 5:1 Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few. HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: GEN 17:27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him. JAM 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. JAM 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. 7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. MAR 11:24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. MAT 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. COL 4:2 Continue in prayer, and watch in the same with thanksgiving; EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[12] 1CO 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

[13] 1JO 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.

[14] 1TI 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. JOH 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. 2SA 7:29 Therefore now let it please thee to bless the house of thy servant, that it may continue for ever before thee: for thou, O Lord God, hast spoken it: and with thy blessing let the house of thy servant be blessed for ever. RUT 4:12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

[15] 2SA 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. 22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? 23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me. LUK 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. REV 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

[16] 1JO 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

[17] ACT 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. REV 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

[18] 2TI 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

[19] JAM 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ACT 10:33 Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. MAT 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. HEB 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. ISA 66:2 For all those things hath mine hand made, and those things have been, saith the Lord: but to this man will I look, even to him that is poor and of a contrite spirit, and trembleth at my word.

[20] COL 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. EPH 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord. JAM 5:13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.

[21] MAT 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 1CO 11:23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. 27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. ACT 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[22] DEU 6:13 Thou shalt fear the Lord thy God, and serve him, and shalt swear by his name. NEH 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the Lord our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes.

[23] ISA 19:21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it. ECC 5:4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed. 5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.

[24] JOE 2:12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning. EST 4:16 Go, gather together all the Jews that are present in Shushan, and fast ye for me, and neither eat nor drink three days, night or day: I also and my maidens will fast likewise; and so will I go in unto the king, which is not according to the law: and if I perish, I perish. MAT 9:15 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber mourn, as long as the bridegroom is with them? but the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken from them, and then shall they fast. 1CO 7:5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.

[25] (PSA 107 throughout) EST 9:22 As the days wherein the Jews rested from their enemies, and the month which was turned unto them from sorrow to joy, and from mourning into a good day: that they should make them days of feasting and joy, and of sending portions one to another, and gifts to the poor.

[26] HEB 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

[27] JOH 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

[28] MAL 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts. 1TI 2:8 I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.

[29] JOH 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

[30] JER 10:25 Pour out thy fury upon the heathen that know thee not, and upon the families that call not on thy name: for they have eaten up Jacob, and devoured him, and consumed him, and have made his habitation desolate. DEU 6:6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: 7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. JOB 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually. 2SA 6:18 And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the Lord of hosts. 20 Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself! 1PE 3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered. ACT 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

[31] MAT 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.

[32] MAT 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. EPH 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints.

[33] ISA 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. HEB 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching. PRO 1:20 Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying. 24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded. 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors. ACT 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. LUK 4:16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read. ACT 2:42 And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.

[34] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. ISA 56:2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil. 4 For thus saith the Lord unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[35] GEN 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. 1CO 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. ACT 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

[36] REV 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet.

[37] EXO 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates. MAT 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

[38] EXOD. 20:8, EXOD. 16:23,25-26,29-30; EXOD. 31:15-17; ISA 63:13; NEH. 13:15-19,21-22.

[39] ISA 63:13; MATT. 12:1-13.
tu ag
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AG
Physics - I agree. A neutral act is not sinful in and of itself when used in Christian worship.




Bracy and SiValley - FYI - you are using different lists of the Ten Commandments.

The Lutherans, Catholics and some others number the Commandments from one list and many Protestants from another.

It is merely the difference in the way they are listed in Exodus 20 vs. Deut 5
Bracy
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Physics96:

quote:
We are interpreting the same concept in drastically different ways. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that:
(1) Jesus does replace the sacrificial aspect of Passover, but
(2) He commanded us to continue celebrating Passover at the Last Supper.

That doesn't make a great deal of sense to me if Jesus is a perpetual sacrifice for the Passover. How does confession work into your theology? And if you recognize confession, what is the role of Passover? Catholics view the Eucharist as the fulfillment of Passover (obviating that feast), and that Jesus was beginning a Sacrament that has the purpose of Communion with God, not forgiveness of sins. In this sense, we do celebrate the modified Passover that God instituted, but as you said, since Jesus's sacrifice, the significance is different.


Don't you see? Before Christ's death, a lamb was sacrificed during the Feast of Passover to cover our intentional sin. Jesus was saying: "*I* am that sacrificial Lamb. Continue observing this Feast with *ME* in place of the lamb. This bread, that you have always eaten at this Feast, is *MY* flesh. This wine, that you have always drunk at this feast is *MY* blood. *I* am replacing the sacrifice of the lamb."

Jesus' death did not replace the observance of Passover, it replaced the *sacrificial lamb* of Passover. He *was* the lamb, and that's why he stood up and said "Do this in remembrance of Me."

Passover is the celebration of Jesus' death and resurrection. Always was.

Bracy
tu ag
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AG
Bracy - You are right. We are still to celebrate the passover...but not as the passover was celebrated, but as Christ celbrated the passover.

The distinction is important. The early Christians already settled this problem for us in teaching us how we are to continue what Jesus taught.

I highly recommend you read the Didache and some other writings from the Church Fathers on how they saw this...
Physics96
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Bracy: I agree with tu ag. We agree that Jesus fulfills the Passover, but disagree on what His commandment meant. You, as I understand it, would use this to justify the celebration of the Jewish Passover; we think Christ intended something new.
Physics96
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tu ag: BTW, if you're interested in the topic, we're also discussing Scriptural evidence for whether Jesus replaced the Mosaic law with his death and resurrection. I've done my best to explain the Catholic view of the New Covenant with Galatians and Matthew 5:17 et seq., but if you have anything to add, feel free.
Greatheart
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Call it what you will, the Eucharist, Lord’s Supper, Communion: This is what replaced the Passover meal, just as Water baptism replaces Circumcision as the sign of the covenant.
Bracy
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tu ag:

quote:
I highly recommend you read the Didache and some other writings from the Church Fathers on how they saw this...


My whole point is that the Church Fathers were *wrong.* Communion was never meant to be separated out from the Feast of Passover. It was meant to be celebrated *as part* of Passover.

Bracy
Bracy
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Physics96:

quote:
I've done my best to explain the Catholic view of the New Covenant with Galatians and Matthew 5:17 et seq., but if you have anything to add, feel free.


The Jews believed that they could obey God's Commandments in the flesh. Christians believe they can *break* God's Commandments in the Spirit.

Galatians was written to address the first issue: trying to obey God's Commandments in the flesh.

Bracy
Bracy
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quote:
Jeremiah 10:1-4: "Hear the word which the Lord speaks to you, O house of Israel.

Thus says the Lord,
"Do not learn the way of the nations,
And do not be terrified by the signs of the heavens
Although the nations are terrified of them;
For the customs of the peoples are delusion;
Because it is wood cut from the forest,
The work of the hands of a craftsman with a cutting tool.
They decorate it with silver and with gold;
They fasten it with nails and with hammers
So that it will not totter."



What do you think is being described here?

It is a Christmas tree!

quote:
Isaiah 66:22-23: "For just as the new heavens and the new earth
Which I make will endure before Me," declares the Lord,
"So your offspring and your name will endure.
And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from sabbath to sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me," says the Lord.


We will continue to observe the Sabbath, even in Jesus' Kingdom. What day do you think we will observe the Sabbath in His Kingdom? Sunday???

Bracy

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 3/11/2002).]
Physics96
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quote:

Galatians was written to address the first issue: trying to obey God's Commandments in the flesh.



Galatians is clearly about more than just following laws without proper faith. It also addresses the separation between Jews and Gentiles, both the unwillingness of the Jews to accept Gentiles and the desire of the Jews to impose their restrictions (e.g., circumcision) on Gentiles. The statement that circumcision and uncircumcision are the same in God's eyes is much more profound that simply saying that both Jews and Gentiles are welcome in Christianity. Paul also ties circumcision to the Old Law (5: 3-4), but then says that there is no difference between the circumcised and the uncircumcised. In fact, there seems to be a great deal of similarity between your present view and the views of James (Acts 21:20) that Paul is rebuking.
Bracy
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Physics96:

Our baptism *is* our circumcision.

Circumcision is what identified a Jew from a Gentile. It is what identified those who followed God, and those who followed Satan.

Baptism, likewise, is what separates those who follow Jesus, from those who follow Satan. It is what identifies us with Him.

Bracy
Physics96
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quote:

But they are together brutish and foolish: the instruction of idols! it is but a stock. 10:9 There is silver beaten into plates, which is brought from Tarshish, and gold from Uphaz, the work of the artificer and of the hands of the goldsmith; blue and purple for their clothing; they are all the work of skillful men.


Gee, I've gotta remember not to use silver plates or dress in blue and purple either!

quote:

10:5 They are like a palm tree, of turned work, and don't speak: they must be carried, because they can't go. Don't be afraid of them; for they can't do evil, neither is it in them to do good."


God is rebuking these people for their vanity in thinking that their wealth will protect and justify them, not for the practice itself.

PS -- This isn't to say that modern Christmas trees can't be a shameless display of wealth, but the custom itself isn't evil.

[This message has been edited by Physics96 (edited 3/11/2002).]
Physics96
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quote:

Our baptism *is* our circumcision.

Circumcision is what identified a Jew from a Gentile. It is what identified those who followed God, and those who followed Satan.

Baptism, likewise, is what separates those who follow Jesus, from those who follow Satan. It is what identifies us with Him.



OK, here's where we part ways on the interpretation of Galatians. In Galatians, Paul is referring to *literal* circumcision, tying circumcision to the Old Law. Otherwise, he wouldn't say that circumcision and uncircumcision were alike to the Lord. Clearly, God wants us to be baptized, and Paul would not say that these things are equal if He were referring to baptism.

Bracy
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Physics96:

How much plainer and simpler can God say it than "Do not do this?"

Bracy
Bracy
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Physics96:

quote:
OK, here's where we part ways on the interpretation of Galatians. In Galatians, Paul is referring to *literal* circumcision, tying circumcision to the Old Law. Otherwise, he wouldn't say that circumcision and uncircumcision were alike to the Lord. Clearly, God wants us to be baptized, and Paul would not say that these things are equal if He were referring to baptism.


The issue that Paul was addressing was that the Jews were trying to say that a Gentile had to baptized and circumcised. The claim was, if the Gentile was not circumcized, the Gentile was not saved. Paul was saying that that was incorrect.

Bracy
Greatheart
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quote:

What do you think is being described here?

It is a Christmas tree!



Sounds like an Ashteroth pole to me…

quote:

We will continue to observe the Sabbath, even in Jesus' Kingdom. What day do you think we will observe the Sabbath in His Kingdom? Sunday???



What day of the week???? The FIRST!

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I directed the churches of Galatia, so do you also. 2 On the first day of every week each one of you is to put aside and save, as he may prosper, so that no collections be made when I come.

ACTS 20:7 On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul began talking to them, intending to leave the next day, and he prolonged his message until midnight.
Physics96
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quote:

The issue that Paul was addressing was that the Jews were trying to say that a Gentile had to baptized and circumcised. The claim was, if the Gentile was not circumcized, the Gentile was not saved. Paul was saying that that was incorrect.



Then why does he equate circumcision with the Old Law?
quote:

5:1 Stand firm therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and don't be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 5:2 Behold, I, Paul, tell you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. 5:3 Yes, I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 You are alienated from Christ, you who desire to be justified by the law. You have fallen away from grace.


In context with chapters 3, it is abundantly clear that Christ has freed us from the law. For example,
quote:

3:19 What then is the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the seed should come to whom the promise has been made.


"The seed" is Jesus; the Law was given to protect the people of Israel from transgressions until the seed should come. 3:19-29 explains in greater detail how Jesus has freed us from the burdens of the Mosaic Law. You're limiting it to the issue of fulfillment of the Law in the flesh, but you are leaving out the equally important issue of the separation between Jews and Gentiles to which this letter is addressed. In that context, the meaning of the passages distinguishing the circumcised from the uncircumcised becomes clear.

As far as the Christmas tree issue goes, I will note that it may help to read the entirety of the book before picking one example out of context. The admonishment not to adopt the practices of other cultures is clearly part of a sweeping attack of idolatry and sin in other cultures. Their "inability to do evil" refers to an inability to harm the people of Israel ("Do not fear them") but God is clearly condemning their sinful practices, which happen to include this use of the tree. The tree itself is not sinful; it is the delusion or vanity upon which this custom is based. To take the commandments of this book literally would be to say that we must continue to circumcise and offer burnt offerings, a situation which even you would agree does not persist.

[This message has been edited by Physics96 (edited 3/11/2002).]
tu ag
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AG
quote:
My whole point is that the Church Fathers were *wrong.* Communion was never meant to be separated out from the Feast of Passover. It was meant to be celebrated *as part* of Passover.



If the Church Fathers got it wrong and a handful of followers are just now getting it right 2000 years later, then Christianity ain't for me.

I find it arrogant to simply dismiss those closest (in time) to Jesus because you think they are interpretting Scripture wrong.
Greatheart
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I'm gonna be on vacation the rest of this week, so I might pop in and out... or not...

Physics96
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Greatheart: I'm sure we'll have it all figured out by the time you get back. After all, these issues have only been around for 2000 years.
Riggs
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Physics some of these issues are more recent and are IMHO just plain laughable.

Bracy,

Get a hold of an old book of how to interpret language. I don't care what language! Once you learn to understand something for the clear intention, people will take you more seriously.

Christmas tree? Honestly. It is obvious what is being talked about in context and a Christmas tree is NOT it!

GH,

Thanks for the disclaimer about length. I found it humorous. Also, four question marks? Wow! You were really on a roll.

In Solus Christus,
Riggs
AgGermany
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AG
Water baptism didn't replace circumcision Greatheart, it replaced natural birth. It is the rebirth of water and spirit.

Faith replaced circumcision.

[This message has been edited by AgGermany (edited 3/12/2002).]
Physics96
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Riggs: Well, at least the Judaizer (imposing Jewish law on Gentiles) part of the issue has been around since the time of the book of Acts. I agree that objections to Halloween, Christmas, and Easter are probably a new phenomenon.
tu ag
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AG
quote:
Water baptism didn't replace circumcision Greatheart, it replaced natural birth.
We still have natural birth.

Colossians 2:11-12 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ. 12 You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

Paul says circumcision is now no longer needed, baptism is.
Bracy
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The pagan practices and traditions that have become intermingled with that of Christianity has become an *enormous* stumbling block for the Jews.
That, just by itself, should be enough to discontinue those practices.

Jews see the pagan traditions and are completely turned off to the gospel because they see it as another pagan religion. That is heartbreaking.
Bracy
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If you're interested, you might like to listen to the way Michael Rood explains it. You can click on the "Listen Now" button at the bottom of the page:

http://www.6001.com/feast.htm
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