Should have Cpt. Miller have skirted around the machine gun nest with the squad

2,971 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by Rudyjax
$240 Worth of Pudding
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Or was the decision to engage and destroy so as to prevent attacks on trailing GI's correct?

Dammit. Ignore that first "have".
FancyKetchup14
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It was the right one. And as Captain Miller said:

"Our objective is to win the war."
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Duncan Idaho
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This was a bad movie that did significant harm to the social fabric of America


(Now that is a hot take)
aTmAg
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Wrong thing to do.

Watch Band of Brothers episode 2 where they take out those guns. That is based on the true story. Once they disable the guns they get the F out of there despite leaving several Germans alive to fight another day.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Some context maybe?
JABQ04
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Why didn't he skirt around the nest and hit it from behind (that's what she said!). Frontal assault on an entrenched enemy with an MG42 wasn't a smart decision. Also didn't have the 3-1 superiority you'd like in an offensive situation. Especially when two (Wade and Upham) are essentially useless in an offensive manner.

Right call IMO but horrible horrible execution. Lucky he only took one KIA.
HoustonAg2106
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JABQ04 said:

Why didn't he skirt around the nest and hit it from behind (that's what she said!). Frontal assault on an entrenched enemy with an MG42 wasn't a smart decision. Also didn't have the 3-1 superiority you'd like in an offensive situation. Especially when two (Wade and Upham) are essentially useless in an offensive manner.

Right call IMO but horrible horrible execution. Lucky he only took one KIA.
Too bad it wasn't Upham...
Urban Ag
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The attack on the machinegun nest was to......

Add drama and build up angst. Now two guys in their squad died in search for Private Ryan.

Reduce main characters. They had enough dramatic deaths in the final act. One less main character to have to account for in the battle. Plus a medic wouldn't have added much to that scene.

It also introduces the Wehrmacht soldier who would later kill Mellish and Miller and be subsequently executed by Upham, thus bringing his character full circle.


As noted above, pure Hollywood. The mission was the retrieval of Ryan not taking out a random machine gun position in the French countryside.

But.....

aTmAg
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JABQ04 said:

Why didn't he skirt around the nest and hit it from behind (that's what she said!). Frontal assault on an entrenched enemy with an MG42 wasn't a smart decision. Also didn't have the 3-1 superiority you'd like in an offensive situation. Especially when two (Wade and Upham) are essentially useless in an offensive manner.

Right call IMO but horrible horrible execution. Lucky he only took one KIA.
One KIA when you only have 7 guys (6 if you count Upham) is sort of a big deal. He could have them all killed, thereby failing his real mission. There were tanks and stuff a mile behind them, why not let those guys take care of it? That was their job, he should have done his.
Urban Ag
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And it could have easily been much worse than losing just one guy. Uphill against a fixed position with little cover.
One other thing I forgot. The reaction to Wade's death caused Reiben to threaten to desert, Horvath to threaten to execute him for not following orders, and Miller to finally share with them what he does back home. Miller than has a brief emotional breakdown. At this point Spielberg wants your guts to be churning. He wants you uncomfortable.

That whole sequence, IMO, is one of the best in the film and drives home the feeling of loss, hopelessness, and just how homesick these guys are. It's brilliant.
aTmAg
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Urban Ag said:

And it could have easily been much worse than losing just one guy. Uphill against a fixed position with little cover.
One other thing I forgot. The reaction to Wade's death caused Reiben to threaten to desert, Horvath to threaten to execute him for not following orders, and Miller to finally share with them what he does back home. Miller than has a brief emotional breakdown. At this point Spielberg wants your guts to be churning. He wants you uncomfortable.

That whole sequence, IMO, is one of the best in the film and drives home the feeling of loss, hopelessness, and just how homesick these guys are. It's brilliant.
I thought it was terrible.

I've never been in the military, so I don't know for sure, but I tend to think the whole desertion thing was ridiculous. I compare this show Band of Brothers and since that one was based on true events, I tend to believe it is a better representation. In that one, Lieutenant Dike basically leads them into an ambush and gets a bunch of guys killed with his incompetence. But nobody threatens to desert. They do what he says without hesitation. Then Speirs relieves Dike and they immediately start doing what he says. Completely professional.

Even with Captain Sobel, when there was insubordination, they didn't say anything derogatory to his face. And the Sobel thing was early on before they saw any battle and he was clearly incompetent too. Captain Miller was supposedly a damn good leader of men who had been fighting together for a long time. Yet his subordinates argued with him like he was their older brother or something. Can you imagine privates in EZ company talking to Captain Winters, like those in Private Ryan talk to Captain Miller? Hell no. Yeah they called him a quaker behind his back early on, but never to his face. And once he proved himself he got nothing but 100% respect. Just like Miller should have been getting.

Furthermore, the idea that the situation where Horvath has a gun pulled on Reiben would be deescalated merely by Miller saying that he was a teacher is ridiculous to me. Reiben would have said, "great I'm out of here anyway" and Horvath would have said, "I'm still going to shoot you".

The whole way that scene played out seemed contrived and bogus to me. The D-Day beach scene was easily the best scene of the movie (and probably the best war scene of all time). But the rest of the movie is "meh" to me. I think when Spielberg sticks to the facts, he's great (D-Day scene and BoB), but when he interjects his own writing he cheeses it up bigtime.


(IB4 it's just a movie)
JABQ04
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aTmAg said:

JABQ04 said:

Why didn't he skirt around the nest and hit it from behind (that's what she said!). Frontal assault on an entrenched enemy with an MG42 wasn't a smart decision. Also didn't have the 3-1 superiority you'd like in an offensive situation. Especially when two (Wade and Upham) are essentially useless in an offensive manner.

Right call IMO but horrible horrible execution. Lucky he only took one KIA.
One KIA when you only have 7 guys (6 if you count Upham) is sort of a big deal. He could have them all killed, thereby failing his real mission. There were tanks and stuff a mile behind them, why not let those guys take care of it? That was their job, he should have done his.


Not sure what your saying. Losing 1/6 or 1/7 (and the medic of all things) brings your combat effectiveness down drastically. I was just saying he got off relatively light for his horrible tactical decision by only losing one dude. I love to discuss tactics but won't do it here but I will leave it at this: neutralizing the MG best was a good call. After all their assembly point for this whole shin dig is in the middle of a dead patrol (who presumably was KIA by the same MG but luckily CPT Miller and Co aren't spotted and this can open a whole other discussion). Tons of open space to either flank of the MG nest to maneuver and you have a good sniper. Straight up bum rushing the position from several hundred yards away was a dumb decision for an officer and and NCO who have been in combat since 1942.

On your other point about arguing a few posts later, he'll yeah it happens. It happened in 1944 and it happens today. I've done it. Not saying it's right but I've gotten into it with superiors. Back to WWII tons of troops deserted. Partying it up in France with wine and woman was a lot more appealing than fighting the Wehrmacht. I'll have to dig up the title but there's a fairly new book about a just this and the thousands of deserters avoiding front line action.
aTmAg
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JABQ04 said:

aTmAg said:

JABQ04 said:

Why didn't he skirt around the nest and hit it from behind (that's what she said!). Frontal assault on an entrenched enemy with an MG42 wasn't a smart decision. Also didn't have the 3-1 superiority you'd like in an offensive situation. Especially when two (Wade and Upham) are essentially useless in an offensive manner.

Right call IMO but horrible horrible execution. Lucky he only took one KIA.
One KIA when you only have 7 guys (6 if you count Upham) is sort of a big deal. He could have them all killed, thereby failing his real mission. There were tanks and stuff a mile behind them, why not let those guys take care of it? That was their job, he should have done his.


Not sure what your saying. Losing 1/6 or 1/7 (and the medic of all things) brings your combat effectiveness down drastically. I was just saying he got off relatively light for his horrible tactical decision by only losing one dude. I love to discuss tactics but won't do it here but I will leave it at this: neutralizing the MG best was a good call. After all their assembly point for this whole shin dig is in the middle of a dead patrol (who presumably was KIA by the same MG but luckily CPT Miller and Co aren't spotted and this can open a whole other discussion). Tons of open space to either flank of the MG nest to maneuver and you have a good sniper. Straight up bum rushing the position from several hundred yards away was a dumb decision for an officer and and NCO who have been in combat since 1942.

On your other point about arguing a few posts later, he'll yeah it happens. It happened in 1944 and it happens today. I've done it. Not saying it's right but I've gotten into it with superiors. Back to WWII tons of troops deserted. Partying it up in France with wine and woman was a lot more appealing than fighting the Wehrmacht. I'll have to dig up the title but there's a fairly new book about a just this and the thousands of deserters avoiding front line action.
Since you were in the military, I will defer to you.

However, I will ask you this, if you were intent on deserting, would your superior officer telling you that he was a teacher make you decide, "you know what? I'm not going to desert afterall!"
JABQ04
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Whatever it takes to defuse the situation I guess. Not knowing Miller's background was kind of plot point so it worked.
aTmAg
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JABQ04 said:

Whatever it takes to defuse the situation I guess. Not knowing Miller's background was kind of plot point so it worked.
Just to make sure it's clear what I am saying... I agree that a Cpt. Miller would do whatever it takes to defuse the situation. I just think what the writers conjured up to have him do so was lame and wouldn't work in a real situation.

If I was pissed off enough at watching my friend die (in what I thought was a pointless mission), that I would desert, I in no way would change my mind merely because I was told my captains previous occupation. Being told, I would be court martialed and hung, that I would be an embarrassment to my family, or just having my ass kicked by my sergeant, etc. would probably do it. All that being told "I am a teacher" would do is make me say, "so the F what? You expect me to risk my life now because I found out you are a teacher?"

I just don't buy it.


But it's just a movie and my opinion. Not gospel or anything.
coupland boy
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Nice discussion. Always was of the opinion that it was not their mission. Plus as has already been stated they had a sniper so waiting a bit to see if Betty Boop guy pops his head up makes sense.

Another question I had was about air support. These guys didnt have a radio, correct? But if they had and could have called in for air support to knock out the MG nest was that type of support really so scarce? Capt Miller made it sound as if it wouldn't have been justifiable. Why not? We had air superiority and you'd think with all the fighting going on in the area that air support would have been available.

Side note - I'm glad this movie came out before Pearl Harbor because the Horvath character would have seemed far more cheesy during this movie.
Mort Rainey
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Duncan Idaho said:

This was a bad movie that did significant harm to the social fabric of America


(Now that is a hot take)


You need to at least have the balls to explain that take
Bruce Almighty
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Mabel Choate said:

Duncan Idaho said:

This was a bad movie that did significant harm to the social fabric of America


(Now that is a hot take)


You need to at least have the balls to explain that take


He's trolling, which is about 99% of his posts on this site.
White Liberals=The Worst
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Quote:

However, I will ask you this, if you were intent on deserting, would your superior officer telling you that he was a teacher make you decide, "you know what? I'm not going to desert afterall!"


I just watched the movie for the umpteenth time yesterday and imo this is a gross over simplification of his diffusing of the situation. Revealing he was a teacher was just a way to get everyone's attention and stop them in their tracks. A lot more was said after that. These guys were losing their minds in the heat of the moment.
jokershady
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aTmAg said:

JABQ04 said:

Whatever it takes to defuse the situation I guess. Not knowing Miller's background was kind of plot point so it worked.
Just to make sure it's clear what I am saying... I agree that a Cpt. Miller would do whatever it takes to defuse the situation. I just think what the writers conjured up to have him do so was lame and wouldn't work in a real situation.

If I was pissed off enough at watching my friend die (in what I thought was a pointless mission), that I would desert, I in no way would change my mind merely because I was told my captains previous occupation. Being told, I would be court martialed and hung, that I would be an embarrassment to my family, or just having my ass kicked by my sergeant, etc. would probably do it. All that being told "I am a teacher" would do is make me say, "so the F what? You expect me to risk my life now because I found out you are a teacher?"

I just don't buy it.


But it's just a movie and my opinion. Not gospel or anything.
There was a lot more to what Cpt Miller said than just revealing his past.

Miller starts talking at the 2 minute mark. Addresses the disertion at around 3:30. Even tells him he'll let him go if he wants.

Urban Ag
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Truthfully, if you really want to question this scene, the biggest question really is why did the medic go in on the assault. He didn't even carry a weapon. That really makes no sense at all. But again, to my earlier points, this scene served other purposes and IMO they pulled it off very well.
Rudyjax
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I've always thought if you combined the first half of Full Metal Jacket and the first scene of Saving Private Fyan you'd have the best movie ever.

I hate the second half of both these movies.
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