HBO The Case Against Adnan Syed

5,241 Views | 33 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by GoAgs92
Phrasing
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AG
Saw this pop up on the guide last night and watched the first 20 minutes of Episode 1. (I had already watched an Episode of GOT for my re-watch and was too tired to finish the whole episode of Adnan). Anyways - it looked pretty decent from what I saw and am looking forward to finishing the episode.

I listened to Serial when it came out and loved it - it was the first true crime series I really ever listened to on podcast. I'm wondering if this doc follows the podcast or if it takes a different approach. In the 20 minutes I watched, the doc credited Serial and Sarah Koenig a bunch already so I know it plays a role.

Anyone else watching this? Thoughts?
Rex Racer
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I'm saving it to watch once it's finished. If you haven't listened to Season 1 of "Undisclosed" (podcast), I highly recommend it. It fills in a LOT more details than Serial, which was more narrative-oriented.

Adnan may have done it (although I highly doubt it after listening to "Undisclosed"), but he DEFINITELY got screwed by the police and prosecutors, and the Maryland Court of Appeals just re-instated his conviction last Friday, making a decision that has never happened before. They ruled 4-3 that his counsel was ineffective for not following up with an alibi witness, but ruled that it was not prejudicial.
Phrasing
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Thanks - I will definitely give that a listen.
Aggrad08
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It reinforced with me that he did it. Serial left me a lot more "he probably did it but the evidence wasn't that great". After seeing some of the evidence and the desperate length even the TV show has to go in an effort to make it seem plausible he's innocent is a real stretch. Jay knew where the car was and what she was wearing. There is no reasonable explanation for this.
RebAg13
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Adnan did it.
duck79
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Two things have always stood out to me:

1). Jay knew where the car was. *Adnans new rep is actually saying this is a police coverup and they told jay off tap where to look then moved the car there.

2). Unless I missed it on serial, Adnan never tried to call Hae after her disappearance. For as close as they were, I don't understand how an 18yr old wouldn't be constantly calling her if they think she might of ran off.
Rex Racer
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duck79 said:

Two things have always stood out to me:

1). Jay knew where the car was. *Adnans new rep is actually saying this is a police coverup and they told jay off tap where to look then moved the car there.

2). Unless I missed it on serial, Adnan never tried to call Hae after her disappearance. For as close as they were, I don't understand how an 18yr old wouldn't be constantly calling her if they think she might of ran off.
1. I think the cops told Jay where the car was, just like they worked out his statement before they started recording. This is obvious when you listen to the recording, and every time Jay stammers over what comes next, you hear a little tap on the table like the cops are drawing his attention to either their notes or a map, and Jay quickly apologizes and continues with the story.

2. Neither did her new boyfriend, Don.
Copperpot
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Here's my rankings of Hae's possible killer.

1. Ronald Lee Moore
2. Don Takera
3. Mr. S
4. Adnan
5. Roy S. Davis III
John Matrix
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Just listened to the first season of serial after hearing about it for years. As many of said, it's fantastic because of how ambiguous the whole thing is. A couple of observations:

1. I weirdly believe Jay, I guess , because I've known a couple of crazy/stoner types just like him that cannot tell a story without fudging the details even a little bit. Usually, in those conversations, there is truth there, even if some of the details are creative. He tells the same story with the same beats to SEVERAL people, which tends to tell me there is something to it. Plus, why would he lie about it?

2. I think Adnon is guilty, but I still would have acquitted him
If I was on the jury. There just wasn't enough true evidence without holes that would complete meet the "beyond a reasonable doubt" expectation of a juror. As they say on the podcast, the case was a mess in all facets. The whole case relies on the Smokey memory of a confirmed stoner and weirdo.



3. I really don't know what to make of Adnon as a person. Just like the host, I couldn't help but like him as a personality as I listened for hours. It really is easy to see why people were so doubtful he killed Hae. However, even with the truck-sized holes in the prosecution, I just can't help but go with the ocum razor explanation that he just seems to be the only one with the motive to could kill her. Unless it's a mix of police cover up,( as has been mentioned in the thread already), and serial killer that is suggested slightly by the podcast, the only one who seems to have been even closer to doing to was Adnon.

Regardless, the whole thing was fascinating in its examination of memory, the justice system, and character. I can't wait to watch the doc!
duck79
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I thought it was interesting that the podcast ruled Don out as a suspect as well based on work. The show however leaves the possibility open that his work scheduled was manipulated due to his mom being the manager(if I recall).
Goldie Wilson
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I'm interested, but I'm saving it for the post-GOT Sunday night void
hunter2012
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Can I just say that for an honor student Hae ran with way too many sketchy folks. I get that it's Baltimore but good grief woman.
John Matrix
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hunter2012 said:

Can I just say that for an honor student Hae ran with way too many sketchy folks. I get that it's Baltimore but good grief woman.
I actually think that is one of the themes that was running throughout the podcast-the idea that these kids were, in small ways, rebelling against their immigrant upbringing. Adnon was way more guilty of this than Hae.
GoAgs92
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You need to take undisclosed with a huge grain of salt.

at least Serial was pretty balanced.
jeffdjohnson
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RebAg13 said:

Adnan did it.


Yep. Seems like a lot of media has been directed to this case in order to make Adnan appear sympathetic. Serial was interesting but I don't see who is clamoring for more media about this case. At this point I mostly feel bad for Hae Lee's family as this stuff keeps resurfacing.

Jay knowing where the car was parked is the whole ball game. None of the other stuff really even matters. If you accept that Jay knew where her car was dumped then Adnan is guilty. Otherwise you have to believe that (at minimum/likely more than) three individuals have been involved in a conspiracy to frame Adnan for decades now. After 2 decades it doesn't even make sense why Jay would continue to lie if he were truly blackmailed in his youth.
Rex Racer
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duck79 said:

I thought it was interesting that the podcast ruled Don out as a suspect as well based on work. The show however leaves the possibility open that his work scheduled was manipulated due to his mom being the manager(if I recall).
It's worse than that. Don supposedly went to work at another store on the night Hae disappeared. His manager at that other location was his step-mom, while his real mom was his manager at his regular store.
emtes
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I've watched the 2 episodes, without knowing a great amount of detail around the case. Started Serial at lunch today but idk if I want to invest 10hrs into it with the show going on.
Copperpot
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Jay was given the car location by the cops. Jay has a history of snitching for cash. The cops had ZERO hard evidence against Adnon for a conviction and needed an eye witness. Jay provided information (that was fed to him by the cops) for the crime stoppers reward. This why Jay's story continually changed. It was being shaped by the cops as they investigated the case.
Aggrad08
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There is no evidence the cops knew where the car was. None.

Adnan pretends he barely knows Jay even though he lent him his car and cell phone and call records indicate they frequently talked.

If I'm adnan and I'm innocent Jay is my perfect allibi.
Where where you that night? I was with Jay, hell I'll even tell you we were smoking weed but no murder can be pinned on me.

And Jay did not know he was getting probation, he thought he was getting 3-5 years. That's hardly worth a small payoff.

Further, adnon is amnesiatic about that night but remembers the day perfectly. And in court he calls jay pathetic. Like he's a snitch. Not with the utter rage and contempt you would have toward a false accuser.
hph6203
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Gauging someone's guilt or innocence based upon their emotional reactions is probably not the best idea and if I was a lawyer I'd immediately exclude you from a jury based upon that alone.

I think he probably did it, but I don't think the evidence was strong enough and the testimony of an "eyewitness" isn't good enough for me.
Aggrad08
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I'm not judging it on that alone. The fundamental fact is jay knew where the car was. Either the cops knew for weeks and kept it secret just to frame adnan or jay knew where it was. And if jay knows where the car is it's game over. If you can't see that, you don't belong on a jury. The irony here is nothing but being swayed by adnan's charm can get you past this fundamental problem.
Txmoe
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I'm disappointed with this doc so far. I feel like the makers are presenting evidence and testimony in a very disjointed way to make it seem like the case against AS is weaker than it really is. Had I not already listened to Serial, I still wouldn't know the basic facts of the case from the first 2 episodes of this doc.

(I recognize the right of the filmmakers to have a certain POV but I also have the right to think they're trying to sway me.)
Rex Racer
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The case is extremely weak. The only thing they have is the testimony of an admitted liar who was obviously fed details of the case by overzealous investigators who believed Adnan was guilty instead of following the evidence. The cell phone records should have been tossed due to the AT&T disclaimer that says incoming calls are not accurate for determining location. And without the prosecutor's obstructing that disclaimer, they would have been. And Adnan's attorney did not even talk to his alibi witness. Guilty or not, he should never have been convicted on the evidence.
John Matrix
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Rex Racer said:

The case is extremely weak. The only thing they have is the testimony of an admitted liar who was obviously fed details of the case by overzealous investigators who believed Adnan was guilty instead of following the evidence. The cell phone records should have been tossed due to the AT&T disclaimer that says incoming calls are not accurate for determining location. And without the prosecutor's obstructing that disclaimer, they would have been. And Adnan's attorney did not even talk to his alibi witness. Guilty or not, he should never have been convicted on the evidence.


Yup. There are just too many holes in the case to convict without any reasonable doubt. If I had to guess simply whether I thought Adnon Syed did it or not, I would probably say yes, but there's really no solid evidence to prove that.
Leggo My Elko
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As others have said, Jay knew where the car was, the right guys in prison.
Rex Racer
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TexjbA&M said:

As others have said, Jay knew where the car was, the right guys in prison.

If he knew. The cops did so much manipulation of his story, I don't trust them.

Part of the reason his story changes is because his previous telling doesn't match the cops' theory of what happened, and as their theory changes, so does his story. That makes me not trust the cops here.
Txmoe
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There is definitely reasonable doubt due to the passage of time, changing testimony, fuzzy memories and considerable doobage. I don't know if AS is guilty or innocent but I think the filmmakers would have made a stronger argument if they had laid out the police's case in a linear fashion and then shot holes in it. Similar to Thin Blue Line, but it's probably unfair to compare this doc to the one that is still held as the gold standard and creator of the genre.
Topher17
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Just finished this doc and have a few thoughts. First, this doc was pretty poorly put together in my opinion. They relied way too heavily on hoping the viewer had listened to Serial. Had I not, I would have been so lost. I also had hoped the doc would have been more even handed, but was more pro Adnan than even Serial. Second, part of me still thinks Adnan probably did it. I don't believe there was enough evidence to actually convict him though. The whole case stinks of misconduct and the faults in our justice system. I'd love for everyone following to get some real conclusion someday, but I don't think that will ever happen.
ATM9000
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I don't think the documentary sucked... I think a lot of people are conflating being super fatigued by the Annan Syed case with the documentary being bad. I thought it was pretty good but after 2 episodes and following season 1 of Serial and the subsequent court updates in the news from time to time, I was just sort of tired with the story. Feel guilty saying that because I think Adnan got railroaded... but it just gets tiresome after a while.

Sort of like Making a Murderer part 2. These run backs are bad ideas because the first run through everything tends to get you obsessed... but everyone can only take so much honestly. I think after this one, if I see some second part to a true crime story be it on TV, podcast, Netflix or wherever, I've learned to just pass on it.
Mikeyshooter
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Quote:

As others have said, Jay knew where the car was, the right guys in prison.
Are we to believe that the car stayed in that lot for 6 weeks without detection? No residents called the police to come check it out? There ended up being no DNA from Adnan anywhere in the car. Are we supposed to believe he's a criminal mastermind that wiped down the entire car and dumped it in the perfect place that wouldn't raise suspicion?

Like others have said, he might have done it. But the state's version of the story doesn't make any sense. Using the cell phone pings to follow Jay and Adnan around town for hours was embarrassing police work but Adnan's lawyer was a moron and failed to poke holes in it.

There's too many weird things with the case that were never answered or fully investigated.

1. Don
2. The weird guy that found the body. He randomly stopped 10 min from his work/house to pee on the side of the road while walking across traffic to the other side?
3. Jay and Adnan pull a body out of the trunk around 7:30pm during rush hour and carry it into the woods without anyone noticing?
4. Hae is supposed to pick up her cousins from elementary school but for some reason lets Adnan ride with her and they end up at Best Buy?

There's probably a dozen more issues with the case but these are the ones I remember right now.
Topher17
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Mikeyshooter said:

Quote:

As others have said, Jay knew where the car was, the right guys in prison.
Are we to believe that the car stayed in that lot for 6 weeks without detection? No residents called the police to come check it out? There ended up being no DNA from Adnan anywhere in the car. Are we supposed to believe he's a criminal mastermind that wiped down the entire car and dumped it in the perfect place that wouldn't raise suspicion?

Like others have said, he might have done it. But the state's version of the story doesn't make any sense. Using the cell phone pings to follow Jay and Adnan around town for hours was embarrassing police work but Adnan's lawyer was a moron and failed to poke holes in it.

There's too many weird things with the case that were never answered or fully investigated.

1. Don
2. The weird guy that found the body. He randomly stopped 10 min from his work/house to pee on the side of the road while walking across traffic to the other side?
3. Jay and Adnan pull a body out of the trunk around 7:30pm during rush hour and carry it into the woods without anyone noticing?
4. Hae is supposed to pick up her cousins from elementary school but for some reason lets Adnan ride with her and they end up at Best Buy?

There's probably a dozen more issues with the case but these are the ones I remember right now.


I'm fairly convinced that if it really wasn't Adnan, it was probably the guy who "discovered" the body. I don't remember a ton about Don from Serial, but he certainly could have too. Another thing about the doc that I think could have been better is it did very little to investigate the other potential perpetrators.
I'm curious to see if the people still on the case may attempt to obtain DNA from either of the two mentioned by staking our for trash from their houses or something similar, kind of like how they finally got dna from the golden state killer.
Hincemm
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Quote:

Are we to believe that the car stayed in that lot for 6 weeks without detection?
In urban areas, I think this is much more common than you think. It's not so much "avoiding detection" as it is "big deal...abandoned car...not my problem." I think the bigger surprise is that no one broke into it in that time span.

i side with those that think adnan did it, but the case was weak and the cops were shady as hell.
jeffdjohnson
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I don't think the case was weak, or frankly, particularly of note. The American criminal justice system is pretty good overall but clearly has its flaws. The Adnan case (while making for an interesting podcast) is nowhere close to being a miscarriage of justice. There would have been far better examples to choose from. The only interesting thing about this case is the amount of media attention that surrounds it and the influence said media/cult of personality has upon its viewers. Adnan had:

Motive. Break up with Hae. He literally wrote "I will kill" on a break up note. Hae describes Adnan as being "possessive".
Opportunity. Multiple witnesses heard him asking Hae for a ride after school because his car was in the shop (false premise). This is why the police contacted him on the day Hae disappeared. Would put him as the last person to see Hae alive. He admits to police on that day that he asked for a ride but "she must have gotten tired of waiting and left".
Forensic Evidence. Fingerprints found in car. Fingerprints found on map book. Map book has page containing park where Hae was buried torn out.
Circumstantial Evidence. Adnan's cell phone pinged towers where Hae was buried. Adnan cell phone records show call placed to Adnan friend Nisha at 3:30. Nisha contemporaneously remembers call. This call places him away from school and with Jay during critical unaccounted time.
Eyewitness Testimony. Multiple eyewitnesses place Adnan and Jay together on day Hae dies. Jennifer (friend of Jay) talks to police first with lawyer present detailing Jay's involvement in crime. Jennifer's knowledge of crime (Adnan kills Hae) pre-dates her body being discovered. Jay talks to police implicating Adnan (saw body, helped bury body). Jay knows where Hae's missing car is parked (corroboration).
Lack of Alibi. Adnan cannot recount his day.

I didn't watch the documentary but it sounded pretty disgusting (supposedly they animated Hae's personal diary with her murderer?). I guess it doesn't matter now since his appeal was denied and he will die in jail. Hopefully this is the end of Adnan fascination and Hae's family doesn't have to put up with anymore of this bull*****



BMX Bandit
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Well said.

You can take any case & make a documentary to show one side to make it look like there was injustice.
GoAgs92
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Other circumstantial evidence...Adnan Never tried to call Hae when she was missing.

Adnan is most likely the killer.
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