****** Game of Thrones - Season 8 ******

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cbr
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aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

bobinator said:

UThis 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.

She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.

But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.



No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
No they aren't.


These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.

GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.


She talks about it at Winterfell when she sees Jon getting all the love for riding her dragons. She feels ostracized and separated from the people, even though they would have all died without her. And they don't giver her any credit for it.
And so she kills a million civilians, that had nothing to do with any of that, after the battle is won?


Yes. She explains it to Jon. She people to be obedient to her out of love. After Jon denied her advances, she chose fear. Destroying the red keep gets rid of Cersei, but it doesn't stop revolts happening by troops and houses still loyal to her.

Her burning Utica to the ground ensures that everyone is afraid of her and what she can and will do. Similar to the Tarly's, but on a much bigger scale.
Pffft. Up until now, Dany has been pretty smart (way smarter than Jon Snow). You don't waste a million people because they "might" rebel. You take out Cersei, her army, her castle, etc. And THEN if the civilians start a revolt you roast them. If you can wipe out armies in 20 minutes, you can easily wipe out civilians if the need arises.
Wrong. The entire feudal royalty is out to kill her. They will keep on plotting and scheming against her unless they are so scared ****less, and their own armies and citizens are so scared ****less, that they wont dare to **** with her.

The lords of the west had their servants/lower class fully under 'useful idiot' supporting roles.

The way to undermine that useful idiot role, and break the wheel of the lords' game, is to demonstrate to everyone on the continent that if their lords try anything with her they will all burn. So the people wont follow them against her.

Thats what she means when she realized that jon/sansa/all the lords had put her in the position where 'fear is all she has'

Brian Earl Spilner
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Ervin Burrell said:

Brian Earl Spilner said:

Dany going full MQ was expected, but the way it happened really pissed me off. The city was taken. They had surrendered.

Ugh.
What part of "mad" do you not understand?

"I expected her to do something irrational and evil but her doing something irrational and evil pissed me off."
No need for the snarky attitude.

We all saw the turn coming but I was hoping for one final thing to cause the turn.

ie. the bells are ringing, and Dany's army starts taking the Red Keep, only for Cersei to use wildfire in a last ditch attempt to keep her alive atop the RK, instead of surrending. Or something along those lines.
bobinator
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Then kill all the high born. Kill everyone wearing Lannister armor. Kill everyone holding a weapon in the city. Kill every blonde haired person.

Literally anything. But give the killing a reason. Even a crazy twisted reason.
aTmAg
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G Martin 87 said:

aTmAg said:

G Martin 87 said:

aTmAg said:

G Martin 87 said:

aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

aTmAg said:

Champ Bailey said:

bobinator said:

This 'rule by fear' thing is the lazy bit.

She could have ruled by fear by simply melting the red keep for everyone to see. Or taking the city and then killing everyone wearing Lannister armor.

But instead she goes all the way to 'I need to kill everyone in this city' which again to me is just lazy. They laid such complicated groundwork for this character, and then at the end she goes completely off the deep end for no particular reason.



No particular reason? The reasonings are 8 seasons in the making.
No they aren't.


These people have benefitted off the power her ancestors amassed centuries ago after they betrayed them. They murdered her entire family and have tried to kill her since the moment she left Westeros using this power that was stolen from her. She lost all her friends along the way, had sacrificed two of her "children," for this cause, and right at the end it turns out that even her central belief that it was her destiny by right to take the throne was a lie due to Jon.
Please. They? The civilians didn't murder her entire family. They didn't kill all her friends and her "children". They didn't make her brother bang Jon's mom. None of this comes close to explain why she'd burn a million civilians after the battle is won.

GRRM may have better explained it (in books or his mind), but the show sure as hell didn't.
Yes, the show absolutely did. Do the body count yourself. Every person Dany ever cared about either died or betrayed her. Every male advisor tried to get her to not give in to her worst impulses. Every female advisor encouraged her to do the opposite. Open your eyes.
My eyes are open. You are blindly defending the indefensible (writing wise).

I can see her wasting the castle and Cersei's army without mercy. But for her to sit there, hear the bells ring, and then decide "nah I'm going to roast all these people who had nothing to do with it while letting Cersei hang out at her perch for a while" made ZERO sense.
It makes 100% sense. Every season has hinted that this was a possibility. Every single one. I can't figure out why you're so surprised by this. First stage of grief, perhaps?
No. Just the expectation of a decent ending after several seasons of greatness.
The only "hints" are "her dad was crazy", the "coin flip", and BS like that. None of her actions hint that. Not burning the Tarlys, her would be assassins, etc.
Sorry, if you think those were the "only" hints, then you should actually *watch* the show. Better yet, *rewatch* the show, Because you definitely missed it the first time.
Those are the hints people keep dropping. So what are the hints that I and all the people on your side of the argument, are missing?
StringerBell
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i dunno i thought the turn was more impactful given that there was nothing to "cause" the turn.

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
cbr
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Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

Oh damn, just realized that Varys conversation with that little girl was him plotting to poison Dany. Maybe that was obvious to some, but surprisingly subtle for D&D. She worked in the kitchens and Varys specifically asked about Dany's eating habits.
I didnt even think of that. Thats right. She wasnt eating not out of craziness, but knowing that she was in a pit of snakes and would get poisoned/backstabbed, betrayed somehow.
bobinator
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StringerBell said:

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
I just don't get how people are okay with this explanation after eight seasons building this character.

Obviously I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I just don't get why people are fine with this.

We spent SO MUCH TIME with this character, and then at the very end, it's just 'she's crazy now.'
cbr
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bobinator said:

Then kill all the high born. Kill everyone wearing Lannister armor. Kill everyone holding a weapon in the city. Kill every blonde haired person.

Literally anything. But give the killing a reason. Even a crazy twisted reason.
Lol, half baked risks make no sense. She had to make sure that every man, woman and child in the rest of the world knows for sure that if their lords ever **** with her, she's going to burn them all. She has to break these lord's power over their people.
Champ Bailey
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bobinator said:

Then kill all the high born. Kill everyone wearing Lannister armor. Kill everyone holding a weapon in the city. Kill every blonde haired person.

Literally anything. But give the killing a reason. Even a crazy twisted reason.


She did. To bend the people to her rule. She doesn't have the best claim anymore, she lost most of her armies. She lost two of her dragons. This shows it doesn't matter, she could still burn the continent to the ground.
Belton Ag
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bobinator said:

StringerBell said:

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
I just don't get how people are okay with this explanation after eight seasons building this character.

Obviously I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I just don't get why people are fine with this.

We spent SO MUCH TIME with this character, and then at the very end, it's just 'she's crazy now.'
She's not crazy, though. She's cold and calculating, but not crazy.
Robert C. Christian
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JABQ04 said:

This would have been a perfect episode for an IASIP opening and title screen. Dany says I will spare the city of the bells ring, then title screen "Dany sets Kong's Landing on Fire"



Posted by TCTTS earlier:
MuckRaker96
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StringerBell said:

i dunno i thought the turn was more impactful given that there was nothing to "cause" the turn.

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
I agree with this. She's finally in KL - the place where here family's monarchy was destroyed. The home her mother had to flee with her just to stay alive and have her. The place where her father- bat**** crazy yes, but still her father- was murdered by the Lannisters who then sacked the city and raped and butchered and stole as they saw fit. Everything KL is what's wrong with the world to her.

And as for the flame-broiling of all those innocents, I'm taken back to an interview I did once with a Vietnam vet who had been a fighter pilot. And he admitted that during the conflict, sometimes their guys on the ground would call in phony reports of the enemy just so the fighter jets could come and napalm everything and the rush of seeing that destructive power unleashed.

Dany didn't want the KL to surrender. She wanted to use Drogon to unleash all the hatred and despair and sadness and rage that's been building in her since the night her psycho brother thought he might bone her first before Khal Drogo took her away.
Urban Ag
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gigemJTH12 said:

MOVING ON...

Lets talk next week.

I'm being dead serious...is there a scenario where Dany leaves Westeros and goes back to Daario, leaves Jon and the rest of them alive to go live in Winterfell, and no one else dies?

I just don't see how anyone is going to get close enough to kill Dany. Only faceless Arya seems possible.
I haven't read any spoilers but I'll tag it anyway

I think it's plausible but unlikely that Dany goes back to Essos. In the aftermath she realizes she has no future in Westeros, plays the role of the martyr, and takes the Unsullied and Dothraki home. Yara offers to give her a ride (literally and figuratively). Jon goes back to the North. Sansa keeps being Sansa. Arya - uh high Gendry, so I change my mind. Tyrion ends up on the throne. Davos is hand.

That would be the safe somewhat happy conclusion and everyone would hate it.

I think the tensions will be through the roof. Someone gets killed leading to a chain reaction of multiple characters getting killed. This is a tragedy afterall.
Bunk Moreland
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jtstanley4621 said:

Something that I don't think anyone can debate: The actors are still killing it. Every interaction was heartbreaking, even though at this point the script is leaving me saying WTF more times than not.

Lena Headey is a fantastic actress, and I think she was great this season, even though she got next to no screentime.

After seeing some of Dinklage's interviews and clearly biting his tongue re: his thoughts on the season, I feel like I could both see the frustration he had with the story & how much he's trying to be the bast actor he can be in his performance last night.
MuckRaker96
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In my mind, at least book Muck, this story has always been about 4 people: Arya, Jon, Tyrion, Dany. By no coincidence, all four are still alive headed to the final 80-90 minutes. How many are still alive when it ends?
tk for tu juan
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Take a look to the sky just before you die
It is the last time you will
Blackened roar massive roar fills the crumbling sky
Shattered goal fills his soul with a ruthless cry
Stranger now, are his eyes, to this mystery
He hears the silence so loud
Crack of dawn, all is gone except the will to be
Now they see what will be, blinded eyes to see

For whom the bell tolls
Time marches on
For whom the bell tolls
Brian Earl Spilner
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So I'm thinking if/when Dany dies, there won't be anything/anyone left to deal with Drogon other than Jon.

So I think he'll fly him up north, beyond the wall, where he can't burn cities to the ground, and live out his days with the freefolk.
gigemJTH12
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One thing I keep thinking about today. The battle of Winterfell seems so damn foreign when thinking about last night. Like it's hard to even remember caring about that, and it was only two weeks ago. With Dany going mad and the extreme of last night, only two weeks later, just feels like two totally different worlds.

Never have before felt like two complete different
Shows just two weeks apart.
Zombie Jon Snow
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Loving this......

dead from those who ruled or led major houses:
Viserys
Ned
Drogo
Renly
Robb
Catelyn
Joffrey
Lyssa
Tywin
Jon but not Jon
Myrcella
Stannis
Balon
Roose
Khals
Ramsay
Margaery
Mace
Tommen
Walder
Doran
Olenna
Night King
Rhaegal
Jamie and Cersei

dead sidekicks:
Oberyn
Talisa
Ygritte
Jojen
Osha
Pycelle
Loras
High Sparrow
Lancel
Ellaria
Sand sisters
Viserion
Littlefinger
Theon
Jorah
Melisandre
Rhaegal
Missandei
Varys
Qyburn
the Hound
The Mountain
Euron

who is left?

Jon
Dany
Tyrion
Sansa
Arya
--------------
Sam
Gendry
Brienne
Pod
Davos
Tormund
Bronn

and more remotely - Yara, Daario, Robyn

The herd has been thinned. No show has ever killed more.

Damn the Gendry thing looks more and more possible by the day - just need Jon/Dany in some murder/suicide deal and Tyrion may give it to him or take it himself???

Still don't see bittersweet - lol - was that just a talking point phrase they were all told to repeat. this is just bitter at this point. lmao.
wangus12
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gigemJTH12 said:

MOVING ON...

Lets talk next week.

I'm being dead serious...is there a scenario where Dany leaves Westeros and goes back to Daario, leaves Jon and the rest of them alive to go live in Winterfell, and no one else dies?

I just don't see how anyone is going to get close enough to kill Dany. Only faceless Arya seems possible.
No way does she just leave. Jon, Tyrion & Grey Worm are all that are left of her "circle" with only Grey Worm agreeing with what she just did. All 3 of them are going to get a chance to talk to her. Could see it being Jon or Tyrion that strikes her down. Or Arya for that matter
MW03
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Man it didn't have anything to do with the bells themselves, but what the bells represented. I know that sounds cliche, but the bells represented Dany's choice to either take the iron throne or succumb to her vengeance. In a way, it was the sound of her surrendering to her darker side and her real aspirations.

It's like Varys said in the beginning of the episode when he commented that Dany's coin hadn't settled yet. I think she's been talking for 8 seasons about taking the iron throne, but ultimately I think she was lying to herself. When pushed to take the throne or burn the city, she chose to burn the city and resigned herself to what it was that she's really wanted since her family was killed: revenge.

Personally, I think that makes a lot of things happening in this episode all the more interesting. You have the people of Kings Landing trying to literally surrender, but that's the backdrop to all these other characters making terms with their own resignations. It's highlighted by the conversation between the Hound and Arya. It's portrayed on Jon's face when he realizes he's going to have to become King out of a sense of duty. It's in Jamie's decision to go back to Cersei even if he desperately wants to be a better man. All of these people are surrendering to who they really are.
StringerBell
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bobinator said:

StringerBell said:

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
I just don't get how people are okay with this explanation after eight seasons building this character.

Obviously I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I just don't get why people are fine with this.

We spent SO MUCH TIME with this character, and then at the very end, it's just 'she's crazy now.'
i dont know man i could kind of see it coming. she's felt a sense of destiny the entire time. that she's the only one who can rule the iron throne. that it's owed to her. the commitment to that drive has sustained her the entire time.

it's not as if she hasnt done stuff to prove a point before.

and now she's basically on the precipice of getting the throne and all of a sudden 1) she doesn't have a rightful claim to it and 2) all of her closest folks are dead and 3) everyone else is conspiring against her. she's never really been backed up into a corner like this.

it makes sense to me. and its been coming for a while. nothing she did last night surprised me.

in some sense this is an extension of what she did to the tarly's. consequences for not bending the knee.
dahouse
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Why did Varys remove his rings when he was arrested?
Cody
Fightin Texas Aggie c/o 04
aTmAg
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Belton Ag said:

bobinator said:

StringerBell said:

rather she became her full self without any real provocation.
I just don't get how people are okay with this explanation after eight seasons building this character.

Obviously I'm fighting a losing battle here, but I just don't get why people are fine with this.

We spent SO MUCH TIME with this character, and then at the very end, it's just 'she's crazy now.'
She's not crazy, though. She's cold and calculating, but not crazy.
So she goes from being smart to being a (cold and calculating) dumbass. Killing the civilian population AFTER winning the battle doesn't gain her anything other than unite the rest of the world against her. She already gained the "fear" when she wiped out Cersei's army in 20 minutes.
Teddy Perkins
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https://youtu.be/RQ9QQMXTftY?t=822

Thoughts from Emilia, the writers, and producer about Dany's decision to burn it down in that moment.
ScottishFire
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dahouse said:

Why did Varys remove his rings when he was arrested?
I just took it as him resigning his post and knowing he was about to be arrested for treason and subsequently executed.
MuckRaker96
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

No show has ever killed more.


Everybody died on lost.
None of the characters ever even existed on St. Elsewhere
Belton Ag
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I feel like this was as hard to accept for me as when Stannis went through with burning Shireen. When that happened I was pissed and almost quit watching the show because I couldn't believe he would go through with it.

Dany burning KL took me right back there; it was a gut punch.
BEaggie08
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The better question is: what was on the note that he burned?
CFTXAG10
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Quote:

No way does she just leave. Jon, Tyrion & Grey Worm are all that are left of her "circle" with only Grey Worm agreeing with what she just did. All 3 of them are going to get a chance to talk to her. Could see it being Jon or Tyrion that strikes her down. Or Arya for that matter
What about a wild card? Bronn comes back and realizes Jaime is dead. His only shot at cashing in on Highgarden is keeping Tyrion alive since Dany is full mad queen. He kills her.
Gig-Em2003
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Bobinator - aTmAg, and others, preach on. This was bad storytelling, plain and simple. I didn't understand Dany's motivation to commit genocide, didn't understand Jamie's motivations to return to Cersei (and not want to kill her), and was very annoyed they made Cersei into a sympathetic character on her way out.

The decision to rush the last two seasons will go down as one of the great mishaps in big-time TV. Give us more of the scenes that make for great GOT TV (i.e. the conversations, like Jon telling Sansa & Arya who he really is, as one example), and less disaster porn (Arya running scared for 20 minutes).

And I'm not of the opinion that this show had to have a happy ending. I'm fine with Dany turning bad. I'm fine with Jamie going back to Cersei. But as presented, their decisions did not make sense.
Robert C. Christian
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Zombie Jon Snow said:

Loving this......
The herd has been thinned. No show has ever killed more.

Dinosaurs killed off the entire planet.
agsalaska
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I was just wondering where Bronn went.
Old Tom Morris
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I think we need to be done with Bronn. The last interaction was awkward enough. I hope he isn't in the finale.
M.C. Swag
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agsalaska said:

I was just wondering where Bronn went.
D&D just kind of forgot about him
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