You're right, I forgot. But " the wall defends itself." I guess I can give Jon a little credit for that. To be fair, he wasn't in charge on the show, except for the top of the wall.

MBAR said:

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Hulla Baller said:

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So Dorne was pretty much pointless in the story? Got it.

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Just because someone loses how does that make them pointless? They're one of the 7 kingdoms. How could they have just ignored them.

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Just think of it as Spain, everyone goes there on holiday and drinks all the wine... costa brava is most excellent this time of year.

I think one thing the show has messed up is not giving Jon enough **** yeah moments to show he is a badass. He is constantly getting bailed out rather than carrying the day himself.

Dany has had several of those moments. With Jon we just get somebody mentioning he is a great swordsman. Don't tell us that, show us! Have him fight a known badass and win without anybody intervening and helping.

Or have him strategize to overcome bad odds rather than having Sansa get Littlefinger to bail him out.

Your name should be bingo bango with that comment.

bangobango said:

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I think one thing the show has messed up is not giving Jon enough **** yeah moments to show he is a badass. He is constantly getting bailed out rather than carrying the day himself.

Dany has had several of those moments. With Jon we just get somebody mentioning he is a great swordsman. Don't tell us that, show us! Have him fight a known badass and win without anybody intervening and helping.

Or have him strategize to overcome bad odds rather than having Sansa get Littlefinger to bail him out.

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I think this supports the theory he is Azor Ahai... despite the odds Jon - through fate / intervention - wins the day. He's always done what he thought was right for "his people" and has been rewarded with wins.

He did kill the cannibal from beyond the wall that slaughtered all of those people beforehand. That was a pretty awesome fight scene.

Fair enough.

I'd by a copy. Also reminds me that I want to buy a map of Middle Earth

wangus12 said:

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I'd by a copy. Also reminds me that I want to buy a map of Middle Earth

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https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6qyi4v/no_spoilers_i_spent_the_last_3_weeks_drawing_this/

Here's the post about it. He can't "sell" it due to copyright issues so he's offering it for free to download and take it to print somewhere, with the option to donate.

MBAR said:

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Carl Underguard said:

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It's a little presumptuous to assume that Jon is good military commander. Certainly we wouldn't assume that from his horrible showing in the Battle of the *******s. And Davos is just a pirate. As far as I know the Battle of the *******s is the most successful thing he's been involved with. I guess he was with Stannis when he caught the Wildlings unawares and slaughtered them.

That these are the military men Dany has to rely on doesn't seem like a good thing. The Unsullied have also seemed fairly incompetent throughout the show. The other side has Randyll ****ing Tarly. But Dany does have dragons.

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Did you miss the battle on the Wall?

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I think getting Jorah back would help Dany quite a bit. Jorah was the heir of Joer who was a respected commander and Jorah himself was knighted (very unusual in the North) by Robert Baratheon for his actions at Pyke. Jon has a bad habit of giving in to his emotions but he has made some really good decisions as well when he defended the Wall (putting Edd in charge, sending his buddy to hold the gate, going down to take down the attack from behind personally). He's learning as well as we saw with Jaime there is no substitute for experience.

Dany still has 100k Dothraki and an army of Unsullied who will do anything for her and Jon also can motivate the hell out of his people. The sticky point may be the Vale but I still don't see them going over to the Lannisters even with LF "in charge".

Dorne still has its entire army and they REALLY should hate the Lannisters now. I don't know how they just stay on the sidelines no matter who is in charge. They are also the House most connected by blood to the Targs and Dany (esp with history from the books).

BTW, how in the hell did Jaime just roll over Highgarden? It's a well fortified castle and even without the Tarly's the Reach should have had an army in the 10's of thousands. How the Lannister army is still substantial is also a mystery to me. They have fought a lot of battles.

I am not real clear in her actual claim to any throne in Dorne, but if she is the "lord" of Dorne like the show has portrayed her, then you keep Dorne out of the war by holding her hostage. Just like they did with Catlyn Stark's brother.

bangobango said:

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I am not real clear in her actual claim to any throne in Dorne, but if she is the "lord" of Dorne like the show has portrayed her, then you keep Dorne out of the war by holding her hostage. Just like they did with Catlyn Stark's brother.

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Dorne has a history of only fighting for Dorne.

If they do not have a stake in an event, they sit it out (See: Aegon landing)

FightinTexasAg15 said:

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wangus12 said:

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I'd by a copy. Also reminds me that I want to buy a map of Middle Earth

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https://www.reddit.com/r/gameofthrones/comments/6qyi4v/no_spoilers_i_spent_the_last_3_weeks_drawing_this/

Here's the post about it. He can't "sell" it due to copyright issues so he's offering it for free to download and take it to print somewhere, with the option to donate.

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That is an amazing map, but Jesus the nerdy spazzes who post on Reddit could f ck up a free lunch. Debating on the legality of printing out the map and selling it.

Texags posters can only aspire to being as dewshy as the Reddit collective.

SeattleAgJr said:

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wangus12 said:

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I'd by a copy. Also reminds me that I want to buy a map of Middle Earth

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You are SO going to get laid!!!!!

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Reminds me of:

Quote:

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Cal: [Pointing to an action figure on a shelf] Is that the Six Million Dollar Man's boss?
Andy Stitzer: That's Oscar Goldman.
Cal: Why do you have that?

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SpreadsheetAg said:

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Hulla Baller said:

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So Dorne was pretty much pointless in the story? Got it.

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Dorne had a 50,000 man army... did they all sink on Yara's ships? I thought they were caught by Euron on the way to pick up the Dornish Army. Therefore, there is a 50,000 man army still waiting around headless in Dorne

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Dorne is represented by the snake right? How do you kill a snake? Cut off its head.

SeattleAgJr said:

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wangus12 said:

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I'd by a copy. Also reminds me that I want to buy a map of Middle Earth

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You are SO going to get laid!!!!!

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At least I'm not this dedicated.

HtownAg92 said:

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bangobango said:

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I think one thing the show has messed up is not giving Jon enough **** yeah moments to show he is a badass. He is constantly getting bailed out rather than carrying the day himself.

Dany has had several of those moments. With Jon we just get somebody mentioning he is a great swordsman. Don't tell us that, show us! Have him fight a known badass and win without anybody intervening and helping.

Or have him strategize to overcome bad odds rather than having Sansa get Littlefinger to bail him out.

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I agree, they haven't really shown that Jon is worthy of his reputation...other than him training all the other Night's Watch, and winning fights on the other side of the wall, oh and taking out the baddest Thenn in a one-on-one fight...and beating a white walker heads up when their weapons were equal...and fighitng about 100 dead at Hardhome...and I guess fighting about 100 Boltons on the ground before they got surrounded. Yeah, I don't think they've proven he is a badass.

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I am contrasting how they have portrayed him in comparison to Dany. He doesn't have any of the moments when he just goes badass and kills somebody like Dany does with her dragons. The closest he had was when he beat the hell out of Ramsey. That was deeply satisfying and I wish he would have more of those. In most of his fights there is some kind of break of luck that ends up saving him. Watch those moments and then compare them to Dany's wins. Or even Arya's. I just don't feel like you get the feeling he is a badass in the show.

I know I can't be the only one who was surprised when Ramsey called him a "great swordsman." The show did nothing to set that up. We know Brienne is a great swordsman, not because people go around calling her that, but because we've seen her heads up against the Dog and Jamie Lannister - two people we know are considered great swordsmen (of course, Jaime is another character the show did not do a great job of portraying his martial prowess, in my opinion).

And look at what you just listed off:

1. Training the Night's Watch - so did Janos Slynt. I mean, come on.
2. Winning fights on the other side of the wall - I guess you are talking about the fight at Casterly keep? I don't remember what exactly happened, but I believe that is another example of him almost getting killed until he was bailed out. I would have to rewatch to know for sure.
3. Taking out Thenn - okay, don't remember specifics of that fight so I'll say there is one example.
4. Beating white walker - again, getting his ass beat until he blocked the strike and WW was stunned that his blade didn't shatter.
5. fighting at Hardhomme - lost the fight. Lots of people fighting tough odds, including Tormund. Did not feel they did anything to distinguish Jon's efforts over other major characters. Plus, they ultimately lost the fight.
6. Fighting Boltons - again, did nothing to really distinguish himself from other characters in the battle. And he would have been quiet easily beaten if not for Littlefinger intervening. Was beyond bad strategy to charge into battle like his forces had to do to save his life, so his acts in trying to save his brother caused massive casualties for his force and almost cost him the battle completely. Not exactly a good look for him.

bangobango said:

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HtownAg92 said:

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bangobango said:

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I think one thing the show has messed up is not giving Jon enough **** yeah moments to show he is a badass. He is constantly getting bailed out rather than carrying the day himself.

Dany has had several of those moments. With Jon we just get somebody mentioning he is a great swordsman. Don't tell us that, show us! Have him fight a known badass and win without anybody intervening and helping.

Or have him strategize to overcome bad odds rather than having Sansa get Littlefinger to bail him out.

---

I agree, they haven't really shown that Jon is worthy of his reputation...other than him training all the other Night's Watch, and winning fights on the other side of the wall, oh and taking out the baddest Thenn in a one-on-one fight...and beating a white walker heads up when their weapons were equal...and fighitng about 100 dead at Hardhome...and I guess fighting about 100 Boltons on the ground before they got surrounded. Yeah, I don't think they've proven he is a badass.

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I am contrasting how they have portrayed him in comparison to Dany. He doesn't have any of the moments when he just goes badass and kills somebody like Dany does with her dragons. The closest he had was when he beat the hell out of Ramsey. That was deeply satisfying and I wish he would have more of those. In most of his fights there is some kind of break of luck that ends up saving him. Watch those moments and then compare them to Dany's wins. Or even Arya's. I just don't feel like you get the feeling he is a badass in the show.

I know I can't be the only one who was surprised when Ramsey called him a "great swordsman." The show did nothing to set that up. We know Brienne is a great swordsman, not because people go around calling her that, but because we've seen her heads up against the Dog and Jamie Lannister - two people we know are considered great swordsmen (of course, Jaime is another character the show did not do a great job of portraying his martial prowess, in my opinion).

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When he fought the risen dead guy at the wall in Season 1, the battle with the Thenn, the training at the wall, and the Battle at Hardhome all seem to meet your definition, plus though he would have lost the battle, he personally whooped tons of Bolton ass. He's been in tons of sword fights in this show, and kicked ass. I don't know how you say they haven't set up his status as a 'great swordsman'. By comparison, he's had way more impressive sword fights than Brienne has.

Carl Underguard said:

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It's a little presumptuous to assume that Jon is good military commander. Certainly we wouldn't assume that from his horrible showing in the Battle of the *******s. And Davos is just a pirate. As far as I know the Battle of the *******s is the most successful thing he's been involved with. I guess he was with Stannis when he caught the Wildlings unawares and slaughtered them.

That these are the military men Dany has to rely on doesn't seem like a good thing. The Unsullied have also seemed fairly incompetent throughout the show. The other side has Randyll ****ing Tarly. But Dany does have dragons.

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You may have a point with Davos, but then Davos is still far more proven than Bronn who now rides with Jamie. But Jon was clearly raised with a strong military background (remember the double envelope conversation with Tormund?). Him and Robb were both quality competent military commanders just by how they were raised, much like Jamie. I'd say the same for Jorah too. It is totally accurate to say that Tarly is the most experienced left now that Robert, Ned, Tywin, and Stannis are all dead, so trump card goes to him. But for everyone else left in play, we're looking at limited experience and a general sense of military education.

I'd rank them as such:
1. Tarly - clearly the cream of the crop
2. Jamie - Tutelage under Tywin with lots of experience. Didn't fight in Robert's Rebellion but he was at least there.
3. Jon - Learned from Ned and been involved in numerous fights, albeit most rather unconventional
4. Jorah - Raised in an intelligent military family, knighted, not sure about any real battle experience but we did see him rally the troops in the fighting pits
5. Davos - Was at least alive and involved in Robert's Rebellion, spent a lot of time strategizing with Stannis and involved in at least three battles.
6. Dickon - Raised by Tarly, surely he knows a lot about military strategy though he lacks any real experience
7. Tyrion - Raised by Tywin, but not REALLY allowed to be involved in military exercises. Got fairly lucky in the Battle of Blackwater, but mostly he's good at chess.

Notably missing is Greyworm. No clue where to rank him as his experience is immense but his leadership and creative strategy is severely limited.

Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.

Jorah also took down one of Khal Drogo's blood riders.

bangobango said:

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Just rewatched Thenn scene.

Jon gets freaking disarmed in that battle. How does that make him look like a great swordsman? He is getting choked out and ,manages to find a smith's hammer and crushes the guy's skull with it. Yes, he won, but again, he appears to kind of "luck" into the win.

All I am saying, is take that particular scene, would have been cool to see Jon just win the fight with some cool move with his sword or something like that. Maybe he disarms the Thenn and then chops his head off or something.

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I had forgotten the details of the fight, but even as you describe, he's a great fighter. That said, if we're going to identify individual battles, his fight and defeat of the White Walker at Hardhome is the single best sword fight in the show, and he won.