I'm not familiar with these things, but I've been wondering whether this power crisis would have been averted if we were connected with one of the big grids in the east or west. Maybe having independence from federal regulation has perks, and maybe this would have happened regardless, just curious if anyone here is an expert in this area.
Did this happen because Texas has an independent power grid?
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Last: 2 yr ago by Macarthur
I don't have expertise but just what I've read, that is correct.
This appears to me to be a case of us puffing our chest out with that Independent Texas bravado and it bites us in the ass. It also appears that regulators simply suggested safegards but put in place, and of course, they were not done.
I'm sure there will be a ton of autopsies done on this and some folks should lose their jobs. I also think this should force us to take a hard look at how we manage this system.
This appears to me to be a case of us puffing our chest out with that Independent Texas bravado and it bites us in the ass. It also appears that regulators simply suggested safegards but put in place, and of course, they were not done.
I'm sure there will be a ton of autopsies done on this and some folks should lose their jobs. I also think this should force us to take a hard look at how we manage this system.
I am in the Entergy area in the MISO system. And, I was without power for about 24 hours yesterday. Came back on this morning, but have been told to expect rolling blackouts going forward.
So it appears to not just be an ERCOT issue. It also isn't just a wind issue. The brand new natural gas plant in Montgomery county couldn't handle the cold and shut down.
Wind, coal, gas, nuclear can all work in below-freezing temperatures. They do it every day in parts of the world. We just didn't build our Texas generation facilities to do so. I guess it saved someone a few bucks at some point.
So it appears to not just be an ERCOT issue. It also isn't just a wind issue. The brand new natural gas plant in Montgomery county couldn't handle the cold and shut down.
Wind, coal, gas, nuclear can all work in below-freezing temperatures. They do it every day in parts of the world. We just didn't build our Texas generation facilities to do so. I guess it saved someone a few bucks at some point.
And yet F16 is full of Seccesion cheerleaders.
Grid independence may play a part in Texas's recent outages, but a quick search of surrounding states indicates that most of them are either experiencing some level of rolling blackouts or are bracing for that possibility. My completely uneducated guess is that we'd have seen some level of this no matter what - it's a nearly unprecedented weather event.
Claude! said:
Grid independence may play a part in Texas's recent outages, but a quick search of surrounding states indicates that most of them are either experiencing some level of rolling blackouts or are bracing for that possibility. My completely uneducated guess is that we'd have seen some level of this no matter what - it's a nearly unprecedented weather event.
Sure, but from what I read, there are steps that can and should have been taken to keep these plants from 'freezing up'.
It should not have been anything to this extent.
What I'm interested to know is whether there could have been power diverted from elsewhere to compensate for the lost generation if the systems had been connected. I'm sure it's not that simple but it's hard to believe it wouldn't have helped somehow.
Yes and no. All areas of the country are within an RTO(Regional Transmission Organziation). All are effectively isolated from other RTO's. Texas happens to be big enough to have its own RTO(except for the panhandle and extreme north central Texas).
I suppose if Texas were a part of the Southwest Power Pool, they would have, in theory, had access to more generation. However, the SPP in also conducting rolling blackouts due to lost generation. Just not to the extent of ERCOT. So, Texas would have had access to a bit more electricity but folks in the Midwest would have then had less(more blackouts for them).
The problem is that generation facilities in the south weren't equipped for the extreme cold. Hard to argue they should have been when it hasn't happened in 100 years. Also hard to simulate operations in this weather to know if your plant will operate when you never get weather this extreme.
I suppose if Texas were a part of the Southwest Power Pool, they would have, in theory, had access to more generation. However, the SPP in also conducting rolling blackouts due to lost generation. Just not to the extent of ERCOT. So, Texas would have had access to a bit more electricity but folks in the Midwest would have then had less(more blackouts for them).
The problem is that generation facilities in the south weren't equipped for the extreme cold. Hard to argue they should have been when it hasn't happened in 100 years. Also hard to simulate operations in this weather to know if your plant will operate when you never get weather this extreme.
Thanks!
I'm in the O&G business and know the havoc cold weather can cause on our facilities, and assumed that similar issues exist at gas power plants. I was surprised to read that other thermal facilities like coal plants have also tripped due to low temps.
I'm in the O&G business and know the havoc cold weather can cause on our facilities, and assumed that similar issues exist at gas power plants. I was surprised to read that other thermal facilities like coal plants have also tripped due to low temps.
Speckled Trout said:
Yes and no. All areas of the country are within an RTO(Regional Transmission Organziation). All are effectively isolated from other RTO's. Texas happens to be big enough to have its own RTO(except for the panhandle and extreme north central Texas).
I suppose if Texas were a part of the Southwest Power Pool, they would have, in theory, had access to more generation. However, the SPP in also conducting rolling blackouts due to lost generation. Just not to the extent of ERCOT. So, Texas would have had access to a bit more electricity but folks in the Midwest would have then had less(more blackouts for them).
The problem is that generation facilities in the south weren't equipped for the extreme cold. Hard to argue they should have been when it hasn't happened in 100 years. Also hard to simulate operations in this weather to know if your plant will operate when you never get weather this extreme.
I will try to find it, but I read that the reglators told them the things that need to be done to keep this from happening and it wasn't done. They could have been prepared.
Maybe so, but you've had at least 3 somewhat similar events in Texas within the last 40 years (1983, 1989, 2011) that probably should have factored more into equipping these generation facilities. It's not like it's never happened before or is out of the possibility of happening again.Speckled Trout said:
Yes and no. All areas of the country are within an RTO(Regional Transmission Organziation). All are effectively isolated from other RTO's. Texas happens to be big enough to have its own RTO(except for the panhandle and extreme north central Texas).
I suppose if Texas were a part of the Southwest Power Pool, they would have, in theory, had access to more generation. However, the SPP in also conducting rolling blackouts due to lost generation. Just not to the extent of ERCOT. So, Texas would have had access to a bit more electricity but folks in the Midwest would have then had less(more blackouts for them).
The problem is that generation facilities in the south weren't equipped for the extreme cold. Hard to argue they should have been when it hasn't happened in 100 years. Also hard to simulate operations in this weather to know if your plant will operate when you never get weather this extreme.
Beat40 said:Maybe so, but you've had at least 3 somewhat similar events in Texas within the last 40 years (1983, 1989, 2011) that probably should have factored more into equipping these generation facilities. It's not like it's never happened before or is out of the possibility of happening again.Speckled Trout said:
Yes and no. All areas of the country are within an RTO(Regional Transmission Organziation). All are effectively isolated from other RTO's. Texas happens to be big enough to have its own RTO(except for the panhandle and extreme north central Texas).
I suppose if Texas were a part of the Southwest Power Pool, they would have, in theory, had access to more generation. However, the SPP in also conducting rolling blackouts due to lost generation. Just not to the extent of ERCOT. So, Texas would have had access to a bit more electricity but folks in the Midwest would have then had less(more blackouts for them).
The problem is that generation facilities in the south weren't equipped for the extreme cold. Hard to argue they should have been when it hasn't happened in 100 years. Also hard to simulate operations in this weather to know if your plant will operate when you never get weather this extreme.
I recall sitting in a frigid house for 2 days bundled up in coats and blankets during an ice storm that wrecked the golden triangle in 97, I believe. Not statewide, but severe cold weather in Texas is not unprecedented by any means. You just don't expect it to happen every year.
Bingo. We are having more and more '100 year events' these days....
Potcake said:
And yet F16 is full of Seccesion cheerleaders.
Succession isn't wanted to keep the heat on it is to try and keep your side of governments perverted way of life out. I can deal with no heat but abortion and gender dementia are more than I care to deal with. Your party has f upend ideals and we want it away from us. If you like it go live where it is accepted abs that isn't Texas . Abortion being ok and sex changes will never be ok with me in any form period. I do not apologize but I will pray for your stupidity and nonsense to stop.
If TX grid were integrated with other regions, more people would be dragged down.
This is a rare event. The rarer the event you have to plan for, the more expensive it will be to implement a solution and the less people will care about it when it's not actively freezing your balls off.
We didn't pay for reliability, so we didn't get reliability.
This is a rare event. The rarer the event you have to plan for, the more expensive it will be to implement a solution and the less people will care about it when it's not actively freezing your balls off.
We didn't pay for reliability, so we didn't get reliability.
Someone had to mention F16, didn't they?
How many '100 year events' have to happen before we invest a bit into preparation?chimpanzee said:
If TX grid were integrated with other regions, more people would be dragged down.
This is a rare event. The rarer the event you have to plan for, the more expensive it will be to implement a solution and the less people will care about it when it's not actively freezing your balls off.
We didn't pay for reliability, so we didn't get reliability.
Seems like we maybe should have. It's right there in ERCOT's name.Quote:
We didn't pay for reliability, so we didn't get reliability.
I'm all for it, maybe it will be an issue that people will discuss now.Macarthur said:How many '100 year events' have to happen before we invest a bit into preparation?chimpanzee said:
If TX grid were integrated with other regions, more people would be dragged down.
This is a rare event. The rarer the event you have to plan for, the more expensive it will be to implement a solution and the less people will care about it when it's not actively freezing your balls off.
We didn't pay for reliability, so we didn't get reliability.
https://www.ktsa.com/cps-energy-on-rotating-outages-were-absolutely-sorry-that-this-is-happening/
San Antonio energy provider says it is due to solar.
San Antonio energy provider says it is due to solar.
OK is bracing for natural gas supply issues.
The thing that makes me the maddest about this series of posts is that neither one of you spelled secession correctly.Turf96 said:Potcake said:
And yet F16 is full of Seccesion cheerleaders.
Succession isn't wanted to keep the heat on it is to try and keep your side of governments perverted way of life out. I can deal with no heat but abortion and gender dementia are more than I care to deal with. Your party has f upend ideals and we want it away from us. If you like it go live where it is accepted abs that isn't Texas . Abortion being ok and sex changes will never be ok with me in any form period. I do not apologize but I will pray for your stupidity and nonsense to stop.
I hope Texans realize that if you do secede, all it will take is one event like this for us to invade and turn y'all into a vassal state.
Possibly, but....
[url=https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1/3/16844854/energy-markets-coal-bailout-winter-cold-snap][/url]
[url=https://www.vox.com/energy-and-environment/2018/1/3/16844854/energy-markets-coal-bailout-winter-cold-snap][/url]
IOW, other states were having their issues while lack of maintenance/upgrades hurt Texas as a whole. The enormous geographic breadth of Texas has to be factored in as well.Quote:
Energy trading across states has helped cushion the blow of extreme cold in past winters, but it's not clear that there would be much power available for Texans to buy from other states right now, as many are also coping with their own soaring energy demands and supply shortfalls.
The Texas blackouts may also be a symptom of a lack of proper upkeep. "The ERCOT grid has collapsed in exactly the same manner as the old Soviet Union," Ed Hirs, an energy fellow in the Department of Economics at the University of Houston, told the Houston Chronicle. "It limped along on underinvestment and neglect until it finally broke under predictable circumstances."
And Texas isn't the only part of the country that has struggled to stay warm in chilly winters. In 2019, a winter storm swept across the Midwest and Northeast, with spikes in electricity demand and sudden drops in natural gas production that forced people to ration heat and reduce power use.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/why-the-texas-power-grid-is-struggling-to-cope-with-the-extreme-cold/ar-BB1dJDV0?li=BBnb7Kz
It is better to light a flamethrower than to curse the darkness- Sir Terence Pratchett
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
“ III stooges si viveret et nos omnes ad quos etiam probabile est mittent custard pies”
look you can have abortions or you can have electricity, pick one and move on
I finally realized that. Got my c's and s's crosswise. But apparently I melted some snowflakes in the process. Good, I'm sick of this blinding whiteout. Winter can go F itself.
Apparently the shortfall is not over-reliance on renewables, but because natural gas pipelines froze. EXTREME
"The biggest shortfall in energy production stemmed from natural gas. Gas pipelines were blocked with ice or their compressors lost power. Much of the gas that was available was prioritized for heating homes and businesses rather than generating electricity. That's helpful for people who use gas for heating but less so for those who use electric furnaces."
"The biggest shortfall in energy production stemmed from natural gas. Gas pipelines were blocked with ice or their compressors lost power. Much of the gas that was available was prioritized for heating homes and businesses rather than generating electricity. That's helpful for people who use gas for heating but less so for those who use electric furnaces."
I personally will gladly give up clean drinking water if it means just one transgender person doesn't pee in the wrong bathroom at a Target.superunknown said:
look you can have abortions or you can have electricity, pick one and move on
It appears the Texas power outages are limited to blue voting counties as it should be.
george1992 said:
It appears the Texas power outages are limited to blue voting counties as it should be.
Yeah, funny, the one's that provide all the tax base...hilarious.
Macarthur said:
Pathetic politicians
This is misleading as presented. Wind turbines account for a lot less generation capacity than fossil fuel facilities. But at the end of ghe day they all failed. Wind, gas, coal, they all failed in this cold. The implication of that tweet that wind was somehow more reliable than fossil fuel is false. If wind was our primary source of energy, the frozen turbines would have been the primary culprit of this failure. They failed right alongside the other sources.
aggietony2010
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