I know there are some photographers on here and I wanted to get your thoughts on the standard wedding photography contract. I'm looking at one now that seems completely crazy to me. Basically, she is not warranting anything and is limiting damages to what I am paying, so she could conceivably not take a single photo (or not show up at all) and my only remedy would be to get my money back. I can't imagine this is a standard photography contract, but wanted to see what you guys typically use.

Also, as to copyrights on the photos, I want them (or at least a half share of them). Also, i dont want her to be able to use the photos in advertising without my consent. How do you usually negotiate these provisions?

Thanks!

Honestly, the easiest thing to do is talk to her. Tell her your concerns and see if she will work with you.

I imagine she will amend it to not have you used in promo material. I highly doubt that they will change the liability section or the photo rights.

If they havent offered a limited rights release(they maintain the rights but allow you to duplicate the images) they arent going to offer that now without a large fee.

You should have contacted me first and given your business to a fellow Ag.

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Basically, she is not warranting anything and is limiting damages to what I am paying, so she could conceivably not take a single photo (or not show up at all) and my only remedy would be to get my money back.

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Limiting your damages to what you pay is pretty standard. I would ask her what errors and omissions coverage she carries and what liability insurance she carries. If she says that she gets both coverages from the PPA, run away. She should have separate coverage besides the minor coverage an organization like PPA provides. The two main insurers for photographers are Hill & Usher and Tom C Pickard. And it isn't very expensive. I have $2mm Liability and significant E&O, plus insurance on all my gear (about $50k worth) for about $1000/year. If they aren't making that type of investment or protecting their business like that, you probably don't want them to document the most important day of your life.

Other wise, one image could come out bad and you could say that ruined the entire wedding and you want the photographer to pay for the entire wedding, including travel for all friends and family, clothes, cake, rentals, etc, which could easily be six figures.

There was a photographer in San Antonio that was sued because the bride's tiara was crooked and she wanted him to pay for a redo of her entire wedding. There is a lawsuit right now in Washington where a lawyer groom is suing a photographer for $300k.

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Also, as to copyrights on the photos, I want them (or at least a half share of them).

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I would never give you a copyright to my work without substantial compensation. And honestly, you don't need copyrights to the photos. You need a copyright release so that you have the ability to print photos at your leisure if they provide a disc of images.

Your profile says attorney, so maybe you do have this in place, but I actively defend my copyrights, and most wedding clients do not have the tools in place to do this. (I register them every quarter and have an IP attorney on retainer.) So if someone uses the images of your wedding without your permission, do you have the ability to go after them? I do (and received a great check this month because I actively seek to defend my copyright.)

You also probably want to know what resolution images you get. Low-Resolution or High-Resolution have no definition. 300dpi or 240dpi don't mean anything either. If they just say 300dpi, it means nothing as far as printing quality and they probably don't know what they are talking about. 12" on the long side at 300dpi = 12*300=3600 pixels. But 1" on the long side at 300 dpi = 1*300=300 pixels. Both are 300dpi. But one is about 1/3rd the size of a Facebook cover photo and one is fit for printing a 8x12 print. Canon's highest resolution camera right now is about 19x13" at 300dpi. But I have printed beautiful prints at 40x60" with that.

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Also, i dont want her to be able to use the photos in advertising without my consent. How do you usually negotiate these provisions?

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Refuse to sign the model release.

However, note that the reason you know what type of quality the photographer produces is because other clients have allowed them to put their images on her website. It is detrimental to our business to not be able to show the work that we produce.

Also, if you refuse to sign the model release to have the pics on their website or in advertisements, they can refuse to allow you to post them online as well. For instance, you couldn't post them to Facebook or G+. That provision goes both ways.


[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/15/2012 10:23a).]

well guitarsoup summed it up much better than I could. Great info

Soup also indirectly explained why you get what you pay for with someone charging sub $1000 wedding prices.

Thus I keep photography as a hobby, an expensive hobby.

Do not pay 100% in advance. That's my only advice.

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Do not pay 100% in advance. That's my only advice.

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Then you won't get myself or any quality photographers that I would recommend. In my experience, most of the photographers that let you pay after the wedding are brand new and need to do that to entice bookings or people that have a failing business and need the quick infusion of cash.

I have a friend that used to do half up front and half after. He has over $15,000 in accounts receivable from non-paying clients after doing all the work related to their wedding. The venue, baker, caterer all get paid upfront.

It all comes down to finding a good, established, reliable photographer to shoot your wedding. And you will probably have to pay a premium over what you could pay with someone that is just starting out or learning, but there are no do-overs.

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Thus I keep photography as a hobby, an expensive hobby.

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Haha, exactly what I was thinking, too!

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It all comes down to finding a good, established, reliable photographer to shoot your wedding

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We thought we had this. Then the guy did a 180 right up to the wedding day.

Every vender(except photographer) we had we did a deposit, then payed a final payment right up to the wedding day. Makes no sense to give someone everything when they still have services pending(photo adjustments, wedding book, etc.) after the wedding. Don't see anything wrong with the photographer keeping wedding images and various other items up until final payment.

I don't know, maybe we could have done a 75-25 deal or 90-10. But would never do 100 upfront again.

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Makes no sense to give someone everything when they still have services pending(photo adjustments, wedding book, etc.) after the wedding.

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Makes no sense to render services you haven't been paid for.

I don't know about you, but my disposable income sure did dry up after my wedding/honeymoon/buying a house for a while.

We do the final payment a few weeks before the wedding. 35% deposit to book the date. That gives a little bit of leave time in case the due date is forgotten before the wedding. I am not going to be the hardass demanding a check on someone's wedding date to continue service, nor am I going to ask someone to not forget their checkbook on their wedding date when they have a thousand other things to do.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/16/2012 8:59a).]

Easy solution to all that: have the employer of your photographer in the wedding party. My guy was all kinds of early to everything.

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Makes no sense to render services you haven't been paid for.

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Your service is not to photograph the wedding, your service is providing the photos of the wedding. I don't see why you would expect to be paid much prior to turning over photos to a client.

Having said that, I'm fairly certain we paid for our photos up front, only becuase I wasn't involved.

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limiting damages to what I am paying, so she could conceivably not take a single photo (or not show up at all) and my only remedy would be to get my money back.

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That seems pretty standard. What kind of damages do you think you are entitled too?

Only think I could see is money back plus whatever cost it took to get a photographer out there last second.

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Your service is not to photograph the wedding, your service is providing the photos of the wedding.

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My service is to help plan weddings with all kinds of questions about all aspects of weddings, show up and shoot the engagements, bridals and wedding. Then edit them all, make prints, back up multiple copies in case of mechanical failure, design the album and deliver everything. A wedding can be 100+ man-hours of work and requires the use of tens of thousands of dollars of equipment. I carry about $23,000 worth of equipment with me for an average wedding. Some have elements that are more complicated and I have to carry closer to $40,000 worth of equipment. That doesn't include things like online storage of files, computers, photoshop, lightroom, RAID systems, card readers, monitor calibration, etc.


If you don't want to pay in full for everything, you can always buy a la carte after the wedding from pretty much any photographer. Some photographers will sell you day of service with no disc. You can choose to buy the disc before or after the wedding. I don't offer that because I don't know anyone that doesn't want a disc.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/16/2012 11:19a).]

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That seems pretty standard. What kind of damages do you think you are entitled too?

Only think I could see is money back plus whatever cost it took to get a photographer out there last second.

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I welcome you to be the one to tell a bride her photographer is not coming and then afterward evaluate what sort of damages you think are justified.

How did the wedding and photos turn out?

Guitarsoup,

Since we are on the subject. Why do photographers use the term "wedding" as an excuse to ass rape and price gouge people for pictures?

Seriously, the wedding industry is borderline un ethical, starting with the photographers.

The one I called out on it wasn't happy either.

What are they doing that is unethical?

Expensive weddings are hilarious. That is all.

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Since we are on the subject. Why do photographers use the term "wedding" as an excuse to ass rape and price gouge people for pictures?

Seriously, the wedding industry is borderline un ethical, starting with the photographers.

The one I called out on it wasn't happy either.

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Were you forced to pay more for a photographer than you were willing to pay? Agreeing on a price you are willing to pay and they are willing to work isn't ass rape or gouging.

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I welcome you to be the one to tell a bride her photographer is not coming and then afterward evaluate what sort of damages you think are justified.

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Yes, and?


Should the bride get a million dollars in damages because there was no photographer? $500,000?


Like I said, I think a fair amount is the money paid plus what it would cost to get a photographer out there.

edit: oops, had a old refresh up. comments unnecessary as already covered.

[This message has been edited by diehard03 (edited 1/11/2013 3:37p).]

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Guitarsoup,

Since we are on the subject. Why do photographers use the term "wedding" as an excuse to ass rape and price gouge people for pictures?

Seriously, the wedding industry is borderline un ethical, starting with the photographers.

The one I called out on it wasn't happy either.

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About to get dinner with a buddy.

tl;dr Lots of hours worked, few days to shoot

Go with GS and you won't be sorry. Dealing with Thomas and Penelope was the easiest part of our wedding. Incredibly nice and helpful. He's going to give you a great product and not going screw you. I don't what he's charging today but back in '09 I thought it was a great deal especially compared to other wedding vendors.

I shake my head at our friends who go against our advice and got screwed because they don't have rights to use their photos and other nonsense. Plus he's a good Ag and helps a lot of people on TA. I will use him again for my future weddings.

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{SARCASM}I welcome you to be the one to tell a bride her photographer is not coming and then afterward evaluate what sort of damages you think are justified.{/SARCASM}

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Yes, and?

Should the bride get a million dollars in damages because there was no photographer? $500,000?

Like I said, I think a fair amount is the money paid plus what it would cost to get a photographer out there.

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I fixed my quote for you.

And as GS and others have said, do your homework and you won't have any problems. Were something to come up where your photographer couldn't make it, the good one will work their ass off to keep you taken care of.

Go cheap and you get what you pay for.

About the whole "price gouging" idea, wedding photography prices are outrageous because of the attitude that people have about making weddings "perfect." Photographers charge a ton because clients will pay a ton. You don't like it? Move to Cuba.

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About the whole "price gouging" idea, wedding photography prices are outrageous because of the attitude that people have about making weddings "perfect."

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No. Not even close. Good photographers charge a ton because it costs a ton to run a wedding photography business.

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Go with GS and you won't be sorry. Dealing with Thomas and Penelope was the easiest part of our wedding. Incredibly nice and helpful. He's going to give you a great product and not going screw you. I don't what he's charging today but back in '09 I thought it was a great deal especially compared to other wedding vendors.

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Thanks JG!. What you got in 09 is selling in the neighborhood of $6k right now.

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I will use him again for my future weddings.

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I shake my head at our friends who go against our advice and got screwed because they don't have rights to use their photos and other nonsense.

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Case in point, someone at JG's wedding wanted to book us, but I was getting married at the time and didn't really have the time to take it on. The MIL booked the 'family photographer.' She didn't know what to ask and they paid 3500. They got no pics on disk and can't buy pics on disk for 5 years.

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Why do photographers use the term "wedding" as an excuse to ass rape and price gouge people for pictures?

Seriously, the wedding industry is borderline un ethical, starting with the photographers.

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There is no price gouging. Just costs of doing business. Sure you can hire someone that doesn't know their ass from an aperture and maybe they will get lucky with a couple pics. But I will deliver a quality consisten product. Just like anything, if you want someone good, you are going to pay for it.

According to the Professional Photographers of America [and I find this to be about right] a successful photographer makes about 30-35% from their bookings.

Gear I carry to every wedding:
Canon 5D Mark III + Grip + extra batteries=$4080
Canon 5D Mark III + Grip + extra batteries=$4080
Canon 14mm 2.8L = $2000
Canon 35mm 1.4K = $1400
Canon 85mm 1.2L II = $2200
Canon 100mm 2.8L IS Macro = $900
Canon 135mm 2.0L = $900
Canon 300mm 2.8L IS = $6800
Canon 24-105mm 4L IS = $900
Gitzo Monopod =$200
Think Tank Airport Security = $400
Think Tank Retrospective 20 = $175
Dual Spider Holster = $220
Walkie Talkie System to talk to my assistant = $200
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Canon 580EX II = $450
Canon 580EX II = $450
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Justin Clamp $60
Justin Clamp $60
Nano Light stand $70
Nano Light stand $70
Nano Light stand $70
Air Cushioned Light Stand: $150
Elinchrom Quadra + A Head $1600
Umbrella $75
Elinchrom Skyport kit (2 tranmitters+3 receivers) $500
Various wires $200
CF Tripod+Ballhead = $750
Demb Flash Diffuser $70
Demb Flash Diffuser $70
[20x] 16-gig high speed memory cards $1000 total
(4x] 32-gig high speed memory cards $400 total
[2x] 64-gig high speed memory cards $300 total
2x Memory card Wallet = $40

So that is over $30,000 worth of equipment I am lugging to every wedding I shoot.

Other costs:
I have an extensive backup system in place.
2x RAID servers = $2500
Four computers (upgraded to SSD and maxed in RAM) = $12000
Probably 30 or so bus-driven hard drives ~$3000
Back up Hard drives in my Safe deposit box = $500
Back up hard drives in San Antonio = $500
Annual Gallery rent (where we meet our clients) =$9000
Annual Marketing expenditures (Sample albums, Houston's Bridal Extravaganza, etc) = $15000
Profesional membership $350/year
Insurance for liability/gear/errors&omissions = $1000/year
Membership to Canon's CPS = $500 [I can get any gear I need in an emergency, all my gear that breaks is returned in 2 days, sent a shattered lens in on Friday and had it back by Thursday.]


If you are going to do all this right, the expenses add up more than just a little bit.

One little example of the detail I put into it:
I only shoot on cameras with two memory card slots. So every image is being written to two different memory cards. Not everyone does this. My assistant backs up all cards as I shoot. They are ingested to a hard drive and a computer and are not rewritten over.

So when I leave your wedding, all your wedding images exist in several places.
1. Backup Cards
2. Original Memory cards
3. Computer Hard drive
4. External hard drive.
5. As soon as I get home, JPEGs are uploaded to the cloud
6. That external is backed up on our RAID servers
7. every month, pics are put on HDs in the safe deposit box
8. quarterly, pics are put on HDs at my parents house in San Antonio

You don't see that work being done, but it takes considerable expense to do it. I've heard many horror stories about a card being corrupted or destroyed or lost, so I go the extra mile to prevent that.

So why do good wedding photographers charge a lot? Because we can realistically only book ~30-40 weddings a year and keep excellent service for all our customers. That is a lot of expense that has to be paid for with wedding photography. Not to mention car insurance, gas to drive to meet people and shoot their wedding, etc and so many other expenses.

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Expensive weddings are hilarious. That is all.

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Last wedding I shot had an entire budget of $5,000,000. There are expensive weddings and then there are expensive weddings.

As far as price gouging goes, I make way more per hour on commercial clients. Even simple portraits can be cheap, but you can do hundreds per year, so you make it back up in volume.

No one ever said you were humble

People don't understand why good photography is expensive. I laid out why.

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No one ever said you were humble

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I didn't take it that way at all.

Fabulous information by Guitarsoup, no doubt he knows his stuff.

As with most things, you get what you pay for.

You want to go cheap, that's understandable but it's a pretty big gamble on a day with no do overs.

GS: my Bro in law is trying to get into wedding videography. He was a film major and wants to make a little on the side doing weddings. Any advice I can give him?

GS,

Can you explain your copyright protection procedure with a little more detail?

We have had a photog business for a little over a year and have done about 60 sessions. So there are quite a bit of photos out there. My wife's work has been featured on some popular blogs.

If like to be able to keep track of her photos as much as possible to make sure people aren't stealing her work.

I'd love to know more about what you do.

Thanks.
Email in profile if you don't want to do it here.

http://asmp.org/content/registration-counts

I register all my images quarterly. You can batch register all your old work at once. Then bulk register quarterly after that.

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Gear I carry to every wedding:
Canon 5D Mark III + Grip + extra batteries=$4080
Canon 5D Mark III + Grip + extra batteries=$4080
Canon 14mm 2.8L = $2000
Canon 35mm 1.4K = $1400
Canon 85mm 1.2L II = $2200
Canon 100mm 2.8L IS Macro = $900
Canon 135mm 2.0L = $900
Canon 300mm 2.8L IS = $6800
Canon 24-105mm 4L IS = $900
Gitzo Monopod =$200
Think Tank Airport Security = $400
Think Tank Retrospective 20 = $175
Dual Spider Holster = $220
Walkie Talkie System to talk to my assistant = $200
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Lumopro LP160 Speedlight = $160
Canon 580EX II = $450
Canon 580EX II = $450
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Rogue Speedlight Gels = $25
Justin Clamp $60
Justin Clamp $60
Nano Light stand $70
Nano Light stand $70
Nano Light stand $70
Air Cushioned Light Stand: $150
Elinchrom Quadra + A Head $1600
Umbrella $75
Elinchrom Skyport kit (2 tranmitters+3 receivers) $500
Various wires $200
CF Tripod+Ballhead = $750
Demb Flash Diffuser $70
Demb Flash Diffuser $70
[20x] 16-gig high speed memory cards $1000 total
(4x] 32-gig high speed memory cards $400 total
[2x] 64-gig high speed memory cards $300 total
2x Memory card Wallet = $40

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Note to self - find popular hotels where wedding receptions are held.

Rob photographer

Profit?