http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/8429392/2012-nba-player-rankings-no-1

Did not find D. Jordan. Assume he is to low ( I glanced through the top 50).

Kris was 485.

DeAndre is #86 which makes him about an average NBA starter, and my guess his ranking puts him in the top 10 in Centers.


For whatever:
Jet is at #81 and Mayo is at #90.

For those that don't want to bother looking at the rankings.

1. LBJ
2. KD
3. Howard
4. CP3
5. Rose
6. KB
7. K. Love
8. D. Wade
9. Westbrook
10. D. Will

11. Dirk
12. Rondo
13. Bynum
14. Fake
15. Pau

16. Parker
17. Carmello
18. Bosh
19. Nash
20. Aldridge.

Rose is top ten.
D.wade is top 15.

Pretty solid, although I think Howard is high just because of the lack of centers.

Crazy that the top teams have this:

Heat: 1, 8 and 18
Lakers: 3, 6, 15, 19
Thunder: 2, 9, Harden

It's like they all had a fantasy draft.

Kevin Love has boosted the previous 5-4 Timberwolves to a record of 5-7 since his return.

DeAndre Jordan- 86 on the list
Donald Sloan- 480 on the list

Duncan at 27th. Oops.

3rd in efficiency
3rd in double-doubles
6th in blocks
10th in rebounds
16th in points
18th in FG% (only Lebron and Bosh are ahead of Duncan in both FG% and scoring)

#10 and #16 need to switch spots.

Nash is still probably too high.
Ditto on Howard, but maybe in a different situation....

[This message has been edited by Iowaggie (edited 2/11/2013 4:18p).]

Parker is definitely top 10 right now.

Kyrie Irving should be higher too.

WTF how is harden not on the top 20. That is really messed up. Kobe has a better team around him and still has a worse record than the rockets. For my money, I'm taking harden as a top 7 player.

My bad on the date of the article. I still have money on harden for top 7

ESPN is updating the top 30 this April

1. LBJ
2. KD
3. CP360
4. Kobe
5. Westbrook (!)
6. DWade
7. Parker
8. Harden
9. Melo
10. Duncan
11. Howard
12. Kyrie
13. Blake G
14. Marc Gasol
15. Dirk

Not sure a Nugget made the top 30. Testament to their depth (or I could be wrong).

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/9145033/#nbarank-player-ratings-26-30

Duncan as the best big man in the league at 36. Unbelievable.

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Duncan as the best big man in the league at 36. Unbelievable.

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Also a reflection of how weak the nba has gotten for big men.

Howard and Marc Gasol are better big men than Duncan.

Duncan has more points per game, blocks per game, and a higher efficiency than either of them. He also has more assists and fewer turnovers than Howard, and more rebounds than Gasol.

When you control for minutes, it's not even close. Per 36 minutes:

Duncan 21.1-12-3.2 with 3.2 blocks, .8 steals and 28.7 EFF
Howard 17-12.5-1.4 with 2.4 blocks and 1.1 steals 22.2 EFF
Gasol 14.7-7.9-4 with 1.8 blocks and 1 steal 20.9 EFF

On a per minute basis, Gasol trails Duncan in every major category except assists, which he leads by just 0.8 per 36 minutes. Similarly, Howard trails Duncan in every stat except rebounds, which he leads by just 0.5 per 36 minutes. Duncan's efficiency is 40% higher than Gasol's and 30% higher than Howard's. I realize stats don't tell the whole story, but they are pretty conclusive when there is that much separation.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 4/10/2013 10:26a).]

Dwight came into this season fresh off back surgery and has been hobbled with a shoulder injury all season. He is playing with new teammates who are all learning a new system and that has been the big reason for the turnovers. When fully healthy he is a much better player that he has shown this year.

That said, what Duncan has done this season is remarkable. He is very Kareem-like in his fundamentals and I can see him having Kareem-like longevity.

I still marvel at a 34 year old Kobe Bryant as a top 5 player in the league. He has dunked more frequently this season than any time in the past 4. It is rare to see dominant guards last into their mid thirties, but he is so fundamentally sound. The thought was that he would retire after next season, but he recently said he felt like he could play another 5 seasons.

He and Duncan both got that vino.

I don't think anyone argued that Duncan was better than Howard last year. This year, Duncan has been better.

How can Duncan be the best big men whenever he claims to be a power forward? I think he is a center but he has been listed as a pf for his whole career. Using that logic, he is the best power forward not center.

According to the NBA there are no Centers anymore. They took "Center" off the all-star ballot.

Big Man = any "big" who primarily plays in the post.

^ Another reason why the NBA is dumb.

Lebron and Carmelo have played more minutes at PF this year than other positions. Duncan is the best center.

1-5 positions are close to obsolete, or at least it seems this way to me as a Spurs fan. PG/SG, SG/SF, SF/PF, PF/C, the small-ball SG/SF/PF, or the Lebron. The "big man" or "post" is just another name for what used to be the 4 and 5, and PFs are versatile anyway... in a lot of ways, they are the TE/MLB of basketball. Posts could be:
stretch 4s like Nowitzki, who get most touches from perimeter to elbow
PFs like Duncan, who like to start possessions anywhere from the elbow to short corner to low/mid post
true Cs like Howard who work almost exclusively in the block/restricted area

Of course, that is all muddied by:
Match ups. Try to cover Duncan with Nowitzki and Duncan will work out of the low post every time. Put Duncan on Nowitzki and Nowitzki will call for the ball outside of 20 feet every time.

Offensive schemes. For example, as the Spurs have rebuilt around Parker, the offense doesn't start with Duncan facing up 15 feet from the basket as much. The ball starts on the outside with all the movement focused on generating an assisted layup or three pointer. As a result, Duncan is a lot more likely to get his first touch rolling to the basket or with his man pinned. It's not about what Duncan can best do one-on-one, it's about the easiest shot all 5 guys together can generate. Duncan is still a PF with PF skills, and it shows when they Spurs revert to working the ball through Duncan, as they sometimes do when Parker/Ginobili are out.

Personnel. A team with multiple players filling the same role will frequently end up having to push one into a somewhat different position. We saw the Lakers strife earlier this year as they tried to figure out what to do with two centers. A team with a personnel deficiency will ask a player to step up into a different role. The Spurs don't have a strong C defender, so Duncan frequently takes on that assignment.

Carmelo and Lebron might be the second biggest players on the floor for their teams, but that doesn't make them true power forwards, especially on defense. Of course, I've said before that I see Nowitzki as closer to a SF than a PF, and for similar reasons. No rim protection, game heavily predicated on shooting/driving... looks SF-ish.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 4/10/2013 2:25p).]

Nowitzki has always played PF or C. He has guarded the opposing PF or C his entire career, and his offensive game evolved from the perimeter to the post. He has always played with at least 3 PG/SG/SFs on the floor. No one has seriously suggested he's a SF since circa 2002.

Duncan has been primarily guarding the opposing C for 10 years. That's a long time for the Spurs to just "not have a strong C defender on the roster".

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Duncan has been primarily guarding the opposing C for 10 years. That's a long time for the Spurs to just "not have a strong C defender on the roster".

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That's not true. Duncan didn't really start playing a lot of "Center" until 2008. That's 5 years ago. He played some Center when the Spurs had Horry but he was still primarily playing the PF spot at that time. He had guys like Robinson, Nesterovic, Mohammed and Oberto starting next to him during his championship years. Those are all true Centers.

Right now he starts next to Tiago Splitter. Splitter is a true Center. Splitter is no more a PF then Nowitzki a SF if you want to go that route.

Splitter looks like he picked up basketball yesterday when he shoots outside of 3 feet. He is the C on offense, he's just not strong enough to play C on defense.

And maybe Nowitzki plays the PF/C against other teams, but he has never looked like an interior player against the Spurs. I don't care who is on the court with him.

[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 4/10/2013 5:19p).]

Splitter typically guards the opposing PF while Duncan guards the C. Dirk has never guarded an opposing SF. Never. If Dirk is a SF because he shoots from the outside sometimes then Parker is a C because he scores a lot in the paint.

A PF has qualities of both a perimeter player and an inside player as do small forwards; it's why they are forwards. A player whose skills are strongly weighted to the perimeter is a SF; a player whose skills are more heavily weighted to the inside is a PF. Height is not part of the definition (see 6'11 SF Stojakovic, 6'5 PF Barkley, 6'6 PF Rodman, 6'9 SF James Worthy, or 6'9 SF Larry Bird).

Dirk's strongest skills come on the perimeter rather than in the paint. That's what makes him such a nightmare matchup: he's a seven footer with an outstanding perimeter game. He's not a pure perimeter player, but he's far from a balanced PF. Think about what you fear from Dirk: is it that he's going to back you down and physically impose his will on the low block, or is it that he will hit a fade way? What skills set him apart?

His outside skills are so much stronger than his inside skills that I tend to picture him landing closer on that sliding scale to SF than PF (again keeping in mind that "positions" are becoming more and more obsolete).

...and lets be realistic, Dirk's defense isn't much of a factor in the player that he is. The dearth of quality offensive low post players means that he is almost always able to defend a post player without getting in too much trouble.

I never said Dirk was A SF. I think Dirk is PF, just like Tim Duncan is. They might play out of position at times or be versatile to play/guard different positions (Lebron can play 1-5) but they are both PFs.

Duncan has excellent range extending out to 18-20 ft. Just like Dirk. What "Center" can shoot the ball like that?

Does Duncan play Center? Yes. Has he always played a little Center at times? Yes. His natural position is still PF.

Duncan guarding opposing Centers at times has just as much to do with wanting to keep him fresh then it does with his inability to guard opposing 4s.

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Also a reflection of how weak the nba has gotten for big men.

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Or a testament to how the rule changes and evolutions in offense & defense have favored perimeter players.

The top 9 players are all perimeter players, then come the big men from 10-20. I think that about one-third of the players on that list are point guards.

Dirk becomes the 9th player ever with 25,000 points/9,000 rebounds tonight. The other players on that list are Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Karl Malone, Wilt Chamberlain, Shaquille O’Neal, Moses Malone, Elvin Hayes, Hakeem Olajuwon and Kevin Garnett. NOTE: no small forwards among his peers on this list

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A PF has qualities of both a perimeter player and an inside player as do small forwards; it's why they are forwards. A player whose skills are strongly weighted to the perimeter is a SF; a player whose skills are more heavily weighted to the inside is a PF.

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There's a 3rd zone - the mid-range. A perimeter player usually creates his shot from starting outside the 3 point line and driving.

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Dirk's strongest skills come on the perimeter rather than in the paint. That's what makes him such a nightmare matchup: he's a seven footer with an outstanding perimeter game. He's not a pure perimeter player, but he's far from a balanced PF. Think about what you fear from Dirk: is it that he's going to back you down and physically impose his will on the low block, or is it that he will hit a fade way? What skills set him apart?

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A fade away is not a perimeter shot at all, and it begins as a post move. Dirk's biggest strength is the mid-range, high post and then the low post. Not the perimeter. Unless you are referring to the 2001 season only. Or you think anything outside the paint is perimeter? Strange.

Here's the play where Dirk scored his 25,000th point. One of his signature moves - He received the pass in the post and shot over the center. Perimeter play?



[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 4/14/2013 11:57p).]