The rib wants to take up backpacking, and I want to indulge her.

We're planning a 2-3 day hike/camping trip this summer in Dolly Sods Wilderness (Appalachian alpine tundra ~4,000 ft).

What do I *NEED* in a pack? Do I need a Kelty/North Face?

Are there good quality packs out there for less money?

I know nothing about backpacking. I've hiked, and I've camped, but I've never hiked in and camped with only what I could pack in.

I would love to find a couple of nice packs in the $50 range, but that may be dreaming. Do I need internal frame? External frame?

Cabelas spring catalog had a nice looking 4800 ci internal frame pack $50 off for $39.99 but they are now "unavailable" according to the website.

Help!

I can't help you but..."The Rib"! Thats funny! I've been calling mine SWMBO. She will be proud to know she has a new nickname.

Carry on.

Well, I've been out of the backpacking "game" for a while but I'll take a stab.

1) I would definitely get an internal frame. External frames for me are better for younger growing guys since they are so easy to adjust. I went to Philmont when I was around 15 and most carried internal. I think they're better

2) As far as camping gear goes...North Face looks nice and works well, but the premium you pay for it is OUT OF CONTROL. I would look at the Kelty, Lowe Alpine, or REI brands first. REI makes great stuff and often have clearances on items from their last year model. Also, the store people are very helpful and can help you with the entire process.

Camping gear (with few exceptions like North Face) is an area where you get what you pay for. That $50 pack may look like a steal now but if you are 15? 20? 30 miles out and it breaks you will be cussing yourself.

I would go to REI and start there.

[This message has been edited by aggiedave05 (edited 3/11/2006 11:21p).]

I agree with dave to some extent. You definitely get what you pay for, or more specifically, you DON'T get what you pay for. After 100-150 clams with the big brands, what you are paying for is a few LESS grams here or there.

I carry an internal frame. It is more comfortable, lighter, and easier to carry. The downsides to this are fairly technical packing requirements. External frames as noted are typically cheaper, and easier to get a decent fit. You also have the advantage on the trail of being 'that guy' with the old school gear, and can talk **** to anyone with their 'fancy' packs. I think my dad likes that about his external frame.

Backpacking is a great hobby. It can be a bit pricy for 6-7 of the initial purchases, but then it only costs food, film, and gas to the trailhead.

The main things you need to pick up are a pack, a tent, a stove, a water filter, and a bag. I also STRONGLY recommend at least one full outfit that has ABSOLUTELY no cotton. Start with one, and add over time.

Some of what you already have will work great, some will work for now, and some should be left behind from the start.

Weight is important when it all goes on your back, but it can grow into an obsession. There is culture of folks out there who I call gram-weenies. Does the weight of the handle of your toothbrush really matter? To them it does. Being a gram weenie is very expensive, as well. As grams come down, price skyrockets.

You can probably get a good pack together for $500, or a great one for $1000. I guarantee that if you spend $1000, shopping for all this will be much easier and more fun. Ebay is great for used stuff as well. Tons of people spend a lot on that one trip, then use their stuff once, or even never, and this dump it a little bit later.

Here is my basic pack:

Gregory Pallisade: Spendy, but so nice. Huge volume, which helps when you are the stongest guy on the trip and need to carry more than your load, ie trekking with your wife. The liability to large volume is that it is easy to be lazy when planning and stuff that space full, or when you load up more than your share of gear, because you have room.
Recommedation: Gregory packs do rock. They literally build packs for the Army SF guys. http://www.gregorypacks.com

MSR stove: The one I have will take any fuel from camp fuel, to gasoline to kerosine to I think enriched Uranium. What can I say, it was a gift.
Recommendation: Jetboil. This is the stove all the magazines have been creaming themselves over. Boils water quickly and with hardly any fuel use.
http://www.jetboil.com

Tent: I use a Sierra Designs Serius 3. Doesn't weigh much more than a 2 person, but lots of extra room with only two folks. I've used it with three, and it was just fine. Know that the tents are rated for people with NO gear.
Recommendation: Pick what you like and want to carry. I do advise you to avoid any sleeves for the pole. Sleeves always wear out, and the ones with clips set up and tear down so much quicker.

Water filter: Don't leave home without it. Way more useful than American Express at 12,000 feet. You want to avoid carrying water any farther than you have to at 8.3# per gallon. I use a Katadyn Hiker filter. It works great, seeing as how no one I've hiked with as gotten sick.
Recommendation: Lots of brands and models out there. Find a good deal. I do like the Hiker. Make sure to pack some cheap iodine or other water purification tablets. Easy to carry. Lifersaver if the filter gets broken.

Sleeping back: Think warm. It sucks to sleep cold. Lots of manufacturers are a bit optimistic with their ratings, I've been told. I personally use a bag I (my dad) bought for Philmont in 1989-90. It still works, though it is a 20deg bag and I now don't want to go below 30 with it.
Recommendation: There is a small company in Colorado called Wiggy's Bags. They are the best in the business imo, although most folks still have not heard of them. Noone else backs up there bags, or puts our as good a product. I will never again buy a different brand. I've learned recently that this is what LOTS of sheep hunters in Alaska carry. That means a lot up here. http://www.wiggys.com

Other tips: Crystal light sugar free peach tea and rum. A+. Use 151 and you have to carry that much less rum. Sams club trail mix rocks. Go to Mc.Donalds and steal some Jelly packets, then go out and get some ketchup, mayo and mustard packets from somewhere. Much easier than carrying a bottle of mustard, and the trash is flat. Condoms: Two reasons for this. Shockingly, as dirty and smelly as you may be, the outdoors will make her horny. Secondly, once you have kids, you won't be backpacking much.

Best of luck. I can't believe I wrote this much.

FTAC of 2000
I graduated, but haven't changed my name.

[This message has been edited by AgDDS2B (edited 3/13/2006 6:20p).]

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Condoms: Two reasons for this. Shockingly, as dirty and smelly as you may be, the outdoors will make her horny. Secondly, once you have kids, you won't be backpacking much.

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Get good boots! They are more important than the pack. You can make it through a weekend with a pack that doesn't ride right or that rubs you wrong but you can't make it through a weekend walking with feet that hurt or have blisters. Make sure they are well broken in as well.

As far as packs go you have already recieved some good advice just make sure your wife gets a pack that is sized or will adjust to her frame size. There are a lot out there these days and it's much easier to do that is used to be.

If you take care of your feet and your pack fits well you can get buy with a lot of scrimping and cutting of corners with the rest of your gear and be just fine.

After spending seven summers at Philmont, I got to see all sorts of neat backpacking items, useful and crap. Two things I noticed: Definetly go with the best equipment you can afford (you can easily stay in your stated budget, but it will take alot of looking). 2. gadgets = weight.

I prefer internals, but that is a personal preference.--Tip figure out just how much crap you are going to pack, and get a pack that just fills that need. Otherwise most folks like to fill up that extra space (4800 is alot of space to play with), with stuff/junk.--the gregory hybrid packs are neat (can't actually afford one)

Rain gear can make or break a trip (and determine if S&R folks get to play with you) Don't skimp here, get the best you can afford.

Some old timers suggest keeping your pack weight to 1/3 your body weight, I recommend 1/4 and preferably less than 1/5. Otherwise you end up staring at the trail huffing and buffing rather than enjoying the scenery.

Lastly, look at each piece of equipment, if you can't come up with 3-4 purposes for it, it stays home. And beyond the obvious, there are lots of purposes for condoms (they are always in my ready S&R bag)

Note--I am something of an ultralightest, but don't get stupid by leaving some things out.--ALWAYS have a first aid kit (and more importantly the skills to use it and other equipment in an improvised manner, take a first aid refresher if you haven't in the last 3-4 years.

Gotta run, have fun on your trip.

Good info guys, thanks.

I am hoping to do this (at least the first few times) with as much stuff I have on hand as possible. I have a relatively light 3 man dome tent and we both have Wenger 20 degree bags. That's important because temps can get near freezing even in the summer up on these mountains.

I need to get a little stove and a water filter kit. I think I may run out and get a backpacking for dummies book or something (Recommendations?).

I will look around on ebay and see what we can find as far as packs.

I think I might go with an external frame pack just in case I want to go out west on an elk/antelope hunt one of these days and it can pull double duty.

A can of Pringles.....grat for starting a fire when your tender is wet.

Though Cabela's-brand backpacking gear is generally poor and expensive, their internal-frame packs are very good and inexpensive. Go figure.

REI is running the HalfDome2 around $100. Great two-person backpacking tent.

Ditto to MSR camp stove, lowest possible weight, and more water than you think you'll need. Also, if in warm weather, fleece liner rather than 'bag will save weight and space.

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After 100-150 clams with the big brands, what you are paying for is a few LESS grams here or there

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WRONG! The biggest difference in price of a pack has absolutely nothing to do with the "pack" per say. Buying a pack is ALL about the suspension system. You can use the weight comparison all you want but some packs can weigh a couple ounces more but are dramatically more comfortable. The prime example of the is Arc'teryx Bora 80. It probably weighs a pound more than it's gregory comparable but can carry a signifcantly larger load comfortably because it uses a carbon fiber pole system that places a higher % of weight on the hips.

In a good pack a the suspension systems are more technical and I would compare them to boots. Don't buy one without trying it on without weight in it.

Chemist, if you have questions check my user profile this is an area I know something about. If you want to have a good time I would suggest areas that you don't skimp on. Pack, boots, raingear, tent, and bag. If your back and feet hurt, and your cold and wet you and your rib wont be having fun.

As for stoves: Jetboils are nice but you can only use there pot with the stove. I would look at Mountain Saftey Research (http://www.msrcorp.com/) for a stove. Most stoves perform the same but some are more durable and lighter than others.

Tents: I agree with the post above about the REI half dome 2+. Probably the best tent for your money for a couple years going.

As for rain gear you don't have to have Gore-Tex anymore, for what your are doing. I would recomend Marmot Precip series you can get great super light jackets that are as breathable as Gore-Tex for less than $100 a jacket. Gore-Tex will run you $300.

Boots - don't be afraid to go light. 1 pound on your feet is the equivalent of 6-10 pounds on your back as far as ware on your back. Find boots that fit, but all leathers aren't a must. I have friends that guide the Grand Teton in Solomon high tops. They are easier on your body and cost about half as much.

Sleeping bags - synthetics are more care free than downs. But other than that down out performs syn in EVER catagory.

I couldn't agree more than what wyomingag stated about the packs suspension system. Before buying a pack through discount means, go into good outdoors shop and get fitted for a pack. All brands have differing suspension systems, but you'll at least know what a decently adjusted pack feels like. Buying one sight unseen could lead to a world of hurt, literally.---cheap packs also tend to have cheap suspension and hip belts.

For the record, when I guided for elk, I used an old (cheap, I mean dirt cheap) internal frame Kelty. Not quite as handy as the external, but with a little creative knot work, it's doable.--granted, I was pretty poor at this point and used what I had.

Thanks for all the information. I'm trying to get back into camping and have a lot to learn. Have started purchasing some gear (sleeping bag and pad) that will be used on a non-camping trip later this year, but plan on getting a tent and probably a pack later this year or early next.

Any suggestions on places to go in Texas? Obviously, Big Bend and Palo Duro would be great, but I really need to ease into this...especially since I'll be taking at least my 2 year old and possibly the wife too.

But most of the state parks I've been to are really unappealing due to the fact that they essentially become trailer parks on the weekends. I want to get out in nature, not be next to a family of 12 with their generator and satellite tv.

So where are some good places within about a triangle from Dallas to Houston to San Antonio? Some place that allows primitive camping with about a 1-5 mile hike.

Lost Maples is a favorite of mine, but I guess I'd like to have other options. I've heard good things about Pedernales Falls, but have never been there. Some place with decent fishing (bass) would be nice.

Also, any suggestions on trips with the wife and younger kids?

Lots of good info on this thread!

Just to add some more -
Trying on the pack and the boots are a must. If the pack is gives you any problems in the store, realize that it'll be 10 times worse 4 miles in. Boots issues are 10 times that.

And please get familiar with Leave No Trace ideas and practices. Keep the wilderness nice for the rest of us.
http://www.lnt.org/programs/lnt7/index.html

A good suggestion was made about getting a book to have as a resource. I recommend "The Essential Backpacker" aby Adrienne Hall. It's not too old so still covers some of the newer equipment. See it at http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0071354379/qid=1142287141/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/103-5604732-3441467?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

Places to go - Lake Georgetown State Natural Area north of Austin is convenient, has terrain, readily available water, and a fishable pond here and there in addition to the lake. It's not overly crowded in my experience and campfires are allowed in the fire rings at the primitive campsites on the trails, unlike at the state parks. We tried Inks Lake State Park in January and found it pretty lacking of crowds on the trails.

As for supplies, don't forget a decent self inflating sleeping pad such as Slumberjack makes.

As to the question of internal vs. external frame packs, researching it on the web reveals the following general conclusions: External frames allow more flexible storage since they have more pockets on the outside, they are cooler on your back since they do not ride directly against it, and are generally less expensive. Internal frames hug your body better and therefore may be better if you plan on scrambling off trail more and the fact that they ride lower and don't have a protruding frame means reduced likelihood of snagging on overhead limbs. Weight difference is not enough to worry about.

Great book.

Great point about the condoms! My wife and I went backpacking about 20 weekends a year pre-child, post child we still have yet to leave the house for more than 8 hours at a time.

One recommendation for packing with women--don't let them pack their own packs. You'll do a better job of weight distribution AND you'll be able to avoid her bringing useless items.

Remember that usually you'll be the one carrying all her stuff by the end of the trip. Unless she's a workhorse.

Lots of thoughtful advice on here... I appreciate it. The rib and I went up to Washington, PA yesterday afternoon to go shopping. While up there we took a look at what Cabelas and Dicks had to offer (We don't have an "REI" and I don't think I've ever been in one or seen one). Although we were not in an "outfitter" store we did get some help finding appropriately sized packs. I tried on probably a dozen different packs and the rib tried on 6 or 8. We did not try them with a lot of weight, but we did push down on the packs to see how they sat with a weight on them. We both found packs that were comfortable and distributed the weight appropriately.

I got a Jansport internal frame pack and the rib got one from a company that I don't recall the name of, but it wasn't one of the big ones. The Jansport was on clearance as it was last years' model so it was $100 off. It was a toss up between that one and one that was more expensive, so I took the cheap route.



We also looked at some of the lightweight stoves and filtration units. We will get one of the MSR stoves and a level 2 filtration unit.

Other than that, we're going to take this first trip with our current tent and sleeping bags and see how it works out. We'll probably only hike a 10 mile loop or so the first time.

We both have good boots and non-cotton hiking clothes.

I also purchased a book that has a wealth of info in it, although I've only read the first 100 pages or so.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=1400053099&itm=14

I am content with the gear we have for now. I know it's not top of the line ultralight stuff, but I want to make sure this is for us before we dive in and spend kilobucks. As of right now, we can cannabalize my hunting stuff and our camping stuff, add a couple packs, some necessities and be on our way for less than $400 out of pocket.

BTW: Does anybody have any feedback on the Katadyn water purifiers? The one I was looking ("hiker" model) at runs about $60.

http://www.campmor.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=39171579&memberId=12500226

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One recommendation for packing with women--don't let them pack their own packs. You'll do a better job of weight distribution AND you'll be able to avoid her bringing useless items.

Remember that usually you'll be the one carrying all her stuff by the end of the trip. Unless she's a workhorse.

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BS. I have always found that overpacking is more a variable of experience than gender. Last summer I was leading a crew of high school volunteers in Minnesota and I pulled as much useless crap from the guys packs as I did the girls.

If you always pack her pack and carry her crap she'll always need help. If she packs it and hikes with it, she'll figure out pretty fast what works and what doesn't. And after a bit of time she'll be able to pull a full share. It might be slow going at first but at least she'll be learning. Give a man fish or teach him how to fish and what not.

Plus, if you continue backpacking you'll want a fully able and competent partner because something could always happen to you.

I've never worked with Katadyn filters, but I've heard alright things about them. I have a Sweetwater Guardian which works for me and is also on the Campor website. Both will work for most weekend backpackers and the occasional longer trek.

But nothing beats MSR gear for durability and field repair-ability.
Hindsight: I wish I had gotten an MSR filter and stove rather than going cheaper.

edit - looking at that specific Katadyn filter. It boasts a 'pleated filter that requires no maintenance'. Makes me go hmmm. Most filter 'maintenance' is the ability to scrub out the trapped particles which restores pumping efficiency. If the pleated design prevents scrubbing I would be worried about decreased efficency as the filter gets filled.

[This message has been edited by alley (edited 3/13/2006 6:17p).]

Just rechecked my post. I actualy have a Katadyn Hiker, not a Guide, so see my orgiinal post. I picked mine up for closer to $35, but that was a great deal and included a rebate.

FTAC of 2000
I graduated, but haven't changed my name.

First of all, sorry I didn't address all of the items some have mentioned about stoves,etc. I didn't see it in the initial post. Very good advice all around.

quote:

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Any suggestions on places to go in Texas? Obviously, Big Bend and Palo Duro would be great, but I really need to ease into this...especially since I'll be taking at least my 2 year old and possibly the wife too.

But most of the state parks I've been to are really unappealing due to the fact that they essentially become trailer parks on the weekends. I want to get out in nature, not be next to a family of 12 with their generator and satellite tv.

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Couple things here...

1) First, the gear and equipment being talked about above is really more for backpacking. For the most part there are 2 genres of camping: backpacking and family tent camping. They really are very different. I am assuming with a 2 year old you probably want to just to tent camping at first. He will love it. You really dont want to go backpacking with anyone who can't carry their own (or at least part) of their load.

2) For a family I think some of the information above is still true, but the equipment needs are very different. I would say for your type of camping you can get A LOT of your equipment at your local walmart. Including coleman 2 burner stove, cast iron cooking gear, cooler, etc. One thing I would never skimp on for either camping is a tent. REI makes great tents and has a wide variety of other brands.

3) One final item regarding locations for camping. While backpacking is great and gets you away from everyone it may not be a great option for you with a 2 year old. To avoid the "RV" crowd try camping in the more primitive areas of state parks or less traveled corps of engineers parks. If you wanted to hike your stuff in a lot of state parks also have hike-in areas.

Best of luck!

[This message has been edited by aggiedave05 (edited 3/14/2006 11:06p).]

Thanks...that's what I'm talking about. A 1-5 mile hike in that should get us away from the crowds, but not the huge trek that will be taxing on everyone. I really want to do Palo Duro and Big Bend, but those will have to wait a decade or so.

I just don't want to pull up, park the car between two other families, get out and set up shop between them and feel like I'm more in the city than I am on every other day.

Lost Maples is pretty much what we're looking for...I'm just looking for more options for when that is unavailable or we want something different.

I'm thinking about Brazos Bend, Buescher, Pedernales, Inks Lake, etc.

Thanks again.

Katadyn is PUR with a different name. They practically invented portable water purification systems and the hiker is a good system.

There are others but for what you are looking to do you can't go wrong with that one.

Palmetto State Park is a good one off the beaten path, as well.

Garner is a great state park, but crowds up the *$%.

FTAC of 2000
I graduated, but haven't changed my name.

rent your pack from the rec for cheap.

Enchanted Rock

I have to throw my 0.02 in. Do not buy a pack over the net unless you have tried it on prior too (especially the one for your wife). Womens packs are becoming more popular (about time) but each and everyone of us have a different body shape, bigger hips, etc so alot of womens packs fit differently or are designed to be modified to fit right. It is a but more of a hassile to find the right pack for a woman, but she will appreciate it.

Also, do not go for a water filter..go for a purification system. They cost more, but you are able to drink from more water sources (nasty stagnant water) with more certainity of not having "issues" latter on. Purification systems actually remove the nasty bugs while filters neutralize them while leaving the bugs in the water. I have a First Need Water Purifier and I think that water tastes better than the water at my house.

Backpacking as a couple is a great experience...I learned more about my husband during our week backpacking trip in Denali than I think I could have in a year.

Thanks for the info.

For primitive backpacking--another great place is the Hill Country Natural area near Bandera.