http://www.notevenahint.info


Comments?

There is some good information in that article. I hope others won't be too prudish to at least read it.

I think this was a good point that he made:

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Masturbation is built on a self‑centered view of sex. This wrong attitude says that sex is solely about you and your pleasure. Your body. Your genitals. Your orgasm. This is the natural tendency of sin. It isolates us from others and makes pleasure self‑focused.

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His advice to get married seemed a little simplistic but good nonetheless.

One thing I have observed in the young folks today is they seem to be waiting longer to get married. I guess I'm just a throwback to a different generation but I often wonder why such a wait. Even amoung christians it seems that the age at which they get married is definately going up.

I don't know what that means or if it's good or bad just an observation I've made.

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Scripture doesn't specifically name the act of masturbation

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Maybe not directly, but there's a verse somewhere that says that a man becomes "unclean" after an emission of semen. So masturbation is not necessarily a sin, but isn't encouraged either.

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His advice to get married seemed a little simplistic but good nonetheless.

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It might not be bad advice, but for many of us, it's useless advice.

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d.

Evolutionary Dear Watson, Evolutionary-I got it from my great, great, great......etc. granddaddy, Bozo the Chimp.

Mrs. L,

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I hope others won't be too prudish to at least read it.

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Your hope for Orphan was in vain...

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david

Orphan,

Are you confused about the subject matter or disappointed in Notafraid for posting it?

Did you read the article?

1. I just wonder what the article is doing on this forum without respect to who posted it.

2. Our youngest child is 30, and I talked to our boys about it something like 20+ years ago.

3. No, I did not read it. No interest.

david

NA-

I realized I haven't "officially" welcomed this handle back, along with your stated mission:
"We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 2 Cor 10:5." It's good to see your heart for missions; I wonder if there aren't some giants around to be slayed as well.

While I understand Orhpan's hesitancy to address this subject (as an issue of sexuality, it is intended to be a personal private matter, even in issues of illness), I think that the recent threads on divorce and sexual frustration in marriage here evidence in microcosm the state of our society where sex is profaned and brought out into the open, so it must be addressed in the open as well. Not the least of the resulting problems is that it has become part of pop-psychology to suggest that masturbation is a "normal" part of development.

I thought I might also add some thoughts from the Orthodox perspective. I think it is very telling that our term(s) for this sin mirror so closely the title of this thread: self-love, self-abuse, self-pollution. In every case the root is a misplaced sense of self.

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The following article was written for this column in 1989 by Archbishop Chrysostomos. A number of readers have asked that it be reprinted, owing to its instructive content and because of the paucity of writing on this important issue by traditional Orthodox thinkers.

I have long hesitated to undertake the task of approaching the intimate problem of human sexuality from an Orthodox point of view. In normal circumstances, this subject is personal, a matter of confessional guidance, and something not to be addressed in mixed company or in a public forum. But the circumstances of the society in which we live are anything but normal. Not only are sexual matters openly discussed in the least appropriate arenas, but a wholesale perversion of the nature of human sexuality reigns in modern society. Clergymen, then, cannot remain silent—even those of us in the monastic ranks.

In addressing various matters of human sexuality, I bring with me into this area of study two things: first, the teachings of the Orthodox Church, to the extent that I understand them after several decades of reading in the Fathers; and second, my background as a psychologist, which includes some years of study and research in the area of psychosexual development. Certainly there may be others better qualified to write on these matters, but the necessities which I feel as a pastor of the flock prompt me to speak out in a time of need, putting aside my admitted limitations in knowledge and expertise.

One troublesome problem that pastors and Church counsellors confront these days is that of self-pollution (or masturbation), a problem which one Church Father in particular, St. Nicodemos of the Holy Mountain, has considered at length. His comments and the teachings of the Church have been largely hidden under the cover of modern theories which pastors have unfortunately gleaned from heterodox (and even un-Christian) sources. Moreover, the natural embarrassment that a pious Christian feels in discussing a matter such as this has served to allow misunderstanding and wrong teachings to proliferate, such that Churchmen have become remiss in teaching young people the true position of the Church with regard to this very serious matter.

Sexuality is part of our fallen nature. It is evil only to the extent that we misuse it—misuse that most certainly begins with the curiosity that young people develop at the age of puberty. At the age of sexual self-discovery, the problem of self-pollution is, whether we like to admit it or not, a rather universal one. Pastors have always realized this and have exercised care to deal with adolescents who fall to this sin with patience and careful guidance. With time, these youngsters can be led to understand its nature, to put an end to it before it becomes a habit, and to understand that the sexual urge, like any other, is subject to control.

While normal, healthy instances of adolescent purity do exist (despite the prevailing attitude that this is abnormal), the practice of self-pollution often does become more or less habitual through the younger years. Self-control is not something easily achieved by young people in the confused, first few years of sexual maturity. This is an unfortunate fact, but a fact; and here, again, we must guide young people with understanding and patience. But our guidance must focus on the fact that this activity is wrong, must be corrected, and certainly is not a matter of what today's social mors call "natural instincts." Habits cannot be overcome if we believe them to good or innocent. We must know that they are bad and detrimental, before we are prompted to control them. And it is this important perspective that the Church must restore. Self-pollution is not, as many Orthodox pastors today claim, a small matter or something incidental. It is a sin, and a serious one when it is habitual.

St. Nicodemos calls this sin a snare and points out that, according to other Fathers, those who are caught in its net have great difficulty extricating themselves and thus imperil their souls. (See Pedalion, Athens, 1982, pp. 704-705.) Indeed, the eighth canon of St. John the Faster assigns to a layman who falls to this sin, in addition to exclusion from Holy Communion, one hundred prostrations daily for forty days, along with a diet of nothing but bread and water. St. John's tenth Canon imposes a suspension of one year on any Priest who falls to self-abuse and, should he continue in such a sin two or three times, deposition. Moreover, St. Paul's famous and unequivocal statement in I Corinthians 6:9-10, that those who practice sodomy and who are "effeminate" cannot inherit "the kingdom of God," St. Nicodemos observes, can also be interpreted to apply to those who practice self-abuse: a sin which "damages" the soul (ibid.).

Aside from attributing to self-pollution various negative physical effects, St. Nicodemos rightly stresses that this sin opens the mind and soul to demonic influence. It is a path to self-seduction and the complete distortion of the meaning of human sexuality and, of course, the pure image to which the human being seeks to be restored in the spiritual life.

There are today few physicians who would attribute to self-abuse the negative physical effects mentioned by the Fathers of the Church. However, this is not on the basis of careful research, but stems from their acceptance of prevailing theories. The Fathers based their observations on data from pious physicians who carefully monitored their patient's moral lives and the consequent effects on their physical health. Such things are not done today. Therefore, the observations upon which the Fathers base their conclusions are often called into question. Nonetheless, the Fathers base themselves on empirical data, modern physicians on untested theory. Moreover, there is ample support by inference for what the Fathers and what Christian physicians in the past so firmly believed.

Today we know that there is a close link between the mind and the body and that, to be sure, the Fathers were correct in linking the health of the body to that of the soul. Therefore, while we may not have contemporary empirical studies to support the claims of the Fathers with regard to the negative effects of self-abuse, we can certainly affirm that the theory upon which they based their views—that one's moral life, a matter of the mind and soul, has consequences for the physical health of the organism—is valid. Furthermore, those of us trained in more traditional psychology are perfectly aware that masturbation has profound effects on the psyche and, thus, ultimately on the physical body. (Even Freud, whose revolutionary view of human sexuality is at times less than healthy and edifying, advised his daughter and other patients to avoid self-abuse.)

Self-abuse has two very serious psychological effects. Firstly, it focuses human sexuality away from the interpersonal dimension and thus distorts its natural goal: procreation—which in turn involves two people, a man and a woman. In so doing, it individualizes human sexuality and turns one entirely to himself. This narcissism can be unhealthy for the psyche, leading to selfishness, a lack of concern for others, and, in fact, sexual dysfunction. And to the extent that this practice focuses one on the self, it is perfectly possible that it leads one to the abnormality of fixation on those of them same sex. This in turn can lead to homosexuality. Thus, it is perhaps no accident that, at a time when society and even clergymen teach that self-abuse is normal, homosexuality (or bisexuality) is at least more open, if not more prevalent in the human population.

The other negative consequence of self-abuse is that it fosters delusions and fantasy. Human sexuality is bridled. Sexual passions are, indeed, quite quickly satisfied (for which reason they are reasonably easily controlled). Thus, whatever the fantasy one may have, in actuality sexual behavior is bounded on all sides by physical limits. Moreover, normal sexuality, involving both a man and woman, also rests on the personal, loving relationship of two people, which tends to transform passionate fantasy into a form of intimacy and into a union which is both decent and capable of sanctification (within the bonds of the Mystery of marriage). When the reality of an interpersonal relationship is absent, fantasy allows one to do whatever he wishes. And this acting-out, should it ever become real, can lead to poor and even violent relationships.

A mind which is turned in on itself, an individual who can live within the world of the passions without taking into account the reality of interaction with others, will ultimately come to a state of serious imbalance. And this imbalance will not only affect his or her physical health, as we have suggested, but will invite the action of negative psychic powers: demons. An individual who lives in proper harmony with those around him and who either controls the sexual impulse or expresses it in a marital context is healthy. His health keeps him watchful against evil and helps him develop as an individual and as a Christian. One who lacks such balance, whose mind has been twisted by the tyranny of the passions, is prey to things demonic. And so it is, of course, that the Fathers speak of self-abuse as a demonic ruse.

Absolute sexual purity is the result of mental health. It is normal. Sexual indulgence is abnormal. This is what we must stress to our young people. If the imbalance that accompanies adolescence leads to certain falls, young people must be guided away from these falls. They must know that sexual health actually resides in a life of absolute purity (ruling out self-abuse, of course) or marriage, in which the passions are modified by a Mystery of the Church and, at the same time, by the natural uprightness that accompanies physical acts carried out in an atmosphere of mutual love and respect. Self-abuse is not normal, but abnormal. And if great guilt attaches to it, this is not the result of the Church calling this sin abnormal; rather, it is the result of that which naturally proceeds forth from something which perverts the mind, body, and soul. It is as natural as the guilt which one feels at taking another life, whether intentionally or not, and helps us to understand the serious abnormality of what is today called an "unimportant and natural thing."

Bishop [now Archbishop] Chrysostomos

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http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/selfabuse.aspx

[This message has been edited by jkotinek (edited 5/15/2004 2:13p).]

And...

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Paul D. O’Callaghan writes in the Journal of Christian Bioethics,

Consideration of the divine design and purpose of sex immediately reveals why homosex, adultery, fornication, prostitution, masturbation, and all other forms of sex outside of marriage are morally deviant. In none of these acts can the true realization of oneness in communion occur, because they are outside the God-established marital union, violations of it, or fundamentally disordered. All of these are true of homosexuality. Since the unitive drive for the experience of union is realized in the conjuntio oppositorum, the desire of man and woman to recreate their original oneness in Adam, it is clear that the desire for union with the same sex is a disordered passion. Something is very wrong when a male seeks to complete himself by union with another male. This is why the Apostle Paul argues that homosexuality is “against nature” (see Rom. 1:26-27). It is not just that the particular genital acts are ill fitted, unusual, and abhorrent. It is the fact that the very nature of the homosexual drive is at odds with how God created us as human beings, in His image, as male and female.

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http://www.antiochian.org/homosexuality

(Editorial note(s): While the above comes from an article on homosexuality, it is in no way intended to suggest that self-abuse is a problem somehow limited to gay persons. Also, as a social issue I am a proponent of equal rights for gay persons, while at the same time maintaining that there are fundamental issues that prevent Christianity and an active homosexual lifestyle to be reconciled.)

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Pre-marital sex is gravely sinful because the sexual act is one of total communion of mind, body and spirit between two people within the Mystery of Matrimony. Sex, according to the Orthodox Christian tradition, the tradition of the Bible and the Fathers, is not just about "getting physical." It is also about "getting spiritual!" Masturbation is gravely sinful because one's sexuality is turned in on oneself within a spirit of self-centred egotism and abuse. Rather, sexuality is intended by God to be a shared experience of give and take for the dual purpose of procreation and mutually deepening of one's relationship to one's spouse. Masturbation is dangerous to one's sexuality since it can damage this sense of self-giving and focus on the other. How many times do we hear people say, "I'm not getting anything out of this relationship etc."

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http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/sexualmorality.htm

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But in the Tradition there is no concept of economia blessing sexual a ctivity outside of the sacramental commitment of matrimony. In her more than three thousand years of existence (in Christian Tradition the Christian Church is understood to be the continuation of the Old Testament Church) non-marital sexual activity has been consistently experienced as potentially destructive behavior, giving birth not only to undesired infants, but also to mistaken beliefs, unhealthy situations, and profound personal tragedy...This traditional Christian view finds an echo in some research documents. In them, secular clinicians report evidence of direct links between a "harmless" practice like habitual masturbation, and a variety of later problems. For that reason they consider masturbation to be much more problematic than clinicians commonly assume. Viewing the practice in terms of behavioral psychology, they suggest that masturbation can easily produce a negative example of Pavlovian conditioning in which the intense gratification derived from masturbation is paired with very harmful fantasies. Among the resulting problems they cite cases of confusion about sexual orientation, rape tendencies, and much more commonly, the inability to relate to another person sexually. Masturbation has also been identified on occasion as a "gateway drug." Many adolescents compulsively use it as if it were a drug, thereby gaining perceived benefits which they later discover are more abundantly supplied by much more powerful actual drugs.

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http://www.stlukeorthodox.com/html/currentissues/sexualmanifesto.cfm

[This message has been edited by jkotinek (edited 5/15/2004 2:18p).]

JK...I am simply "old school". There are subjects best discussed with the persons involved or your Pastor, if you are seeking spiritual guidance.

My comment is in no way intended to disparage those seeking help and advice on this public forum..I simply have a different mindset.

david

Orphan-

I hope you didn't take it as a bash...when I said that I understand, I mean that my preference would be to leave this as a matter between a person and their spiritual counselor...

At least you're always doing it with someone you respect.

jk,

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Sexuality is part of our fallen nature.

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I found this quote interesting. Can you explain that please?

Orph

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"No, I did not read it".

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Then be silent!

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/15/2004 7:46p).]

Then don't post it. Besides that, have I a msiconception that this is an open forum? Or are you now the lord of the manor?

david


[This message has been edited by Orphan (edited 5/15/2004 8:00p).]

JK

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I realized I haven't "officially" welcomed this handle back, along with your stated mission:
"We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 2 Cor 10:5." It's good to see your heart for missions; I wonder if there aren't some giants around to be slayed as well.

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Thanks,

I don’t have a specific mission or creed that I know of as of yet. I’m sure you will know if I do..

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While I understand Orhpan's hesitancy to address this subject (as an issue of sexuality, it is intended to be a personal private matter, even in issues of illness), I think that the recent threads on divorce and sexual frustration in marriage here evidence in microcosm the state of our society where sex is profaned and brought out into the open, so it must be addressed in the open as well. Not the least of the resulting problems is that it has become part of pop-psychology to suggest that masturbation is a "normal" part of development.

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To be honest. I myself have struggled with whether it’s a sin or not. Mr’s L. said I should start a new thread last night because things were slow, so I was on a site and had read that article. I thought what the heck, I’ll post it, shocking or not… I think it’s got some good stuff in there…

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I thought I might also add some thoughts from the Orthodox perspective. I think it is very telling that our term(s) for this sin mirror so closely the title of this thread: self-love, self-abuse, self-pollution. In every case the root is a misplaced sense of self.

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I thought his quote was interesting here: “His comments and the teachings of the Church have been largely hidden under the cover of modern theories which pastors have unfortunately gleaned from heterodox (and even un-Christian) sources.”

I am not certain, but I believe he would probably consider me, and the author of the link heterodox… But I think he was talking about the really bad heterodox that would disagree with him on this stuff…

I too found his comment interesting where he said this: “sexuality is part of our fallen nature. It is evil only to the extent that we misuse it”

If it’s part of the fallen nature, but only evil to the extent that we misuse it, then he is saying something that is a part of the fallen nature can be used in an un-evil manor. For example, Satan, although his nature is purely evil could do something contrary to his nature, or something that is not evil. It seems as if he is saying that something can act contrary to it’s nature. This puts a whole new spin on the theological use of the term “nature”…

What do you think would happen if this was actually imposed on priests today? : “St. John's tenth Canon imposes a suspension of one year on any Priest who falls to self-abuse and, should he continue in such a sin two or three times, deposition.”

This is a good word right here: “Aside from attributing to self-pollution various negative physical effects, St. Nicodemos rightly stresses that this sin opens the mind and soul to demonic influence. It is a path to self-seduction and the complete distortion of the meaning of human sexuality and, of course, the pure image to which the human being seeks to be restored in the spiritual life.”

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Then don't post it. Besides that, have I a msiconception that this is an open forum? Or are you now the lord of the manor?

david

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David,

If you aren’t even going to read the article that is the purpose of the thread, then don't come on it with frowning faces, and ignorant questions, especially the questioning of the motives of the poster.

[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/16/2004 1:08p).]

I don't have the time to shift through the article right now (I'm going to be busy packing, moving, etc after graduating last friday), but I was wondering if anyone could point out any scriptural passages that the author quotes that he feels speaks directly on the issue of masterbation?

Nothing direct, because I don’t think there is a scripture that directly addresses it… He mentions verses like Eph 5:3, 2Pet 2:19, 1Thess 4:3-6, 1Cor 7:9

Nah...it's not worth it.

david

[This message has been edited by Orphan (edited 5/16/2004 2:46p).]

I just taught about this this weekend with 5th & 6th graders at our church's pre-teen retreat. While the Bible does not specifically mention masturbastion or pornography - it is very clear that sex was designed by God and only blessed by Him when done within the context of marriage.

I think masturbation is like eating. It can be good; it can be sinful. I think if it was cart-blanche sinful, God would have gone to the trouble of saying so.

aggiebrad,

Here is a letter from the editor of a christian website christiancounterculture.com
it also has good articles on a biblical view of sexuality.

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Several weeks ago, while listening to recordings of a recent seminar on Contemporary Christian Music, I came across an exchange that I found quite disturbing. The speaker was underscoring the "utter worldliness" of the CCM scene by relating an experience he had at a Christian Music Festival. He noted that he had captured a young woman on film, probably in her late teens, wearing nothing but white shorts and a bikini top, moving in rhythm to the music. Around her neck was an identification badge, held by a thin whistle strap. The following words were printed on the strap:

"What would Jesus do?"

In relating the story, the speaker did not hesitate to provide the answer:

"The Jesus I know would search for the largest tarp he could find to cover her, and then rebuke her."

I found that answer quite troubling, especially coming from someone who has professed to know the GRACE of God in Jesus Christ for many years. It certainly does not reflect our Lord's character as revealed to us in the Gospel accounts — the ones we can read and examine for ourselves. Rather, it seems more a reflection of the cultural Jesus that has found its home in many conservative, fundamentalist, and Reformed traditions. I find it quite sad . . . and ugly.

I seem to remember reading in John's Gospel where some "godly" men, zealous to defend God's holy law, had caught a woman — not merely dressed in an immodest fashion, but — in the very act of having sexual intercourse with a man who was not her husband (see John 8). You recall how our Lord responded . . . rebuking her? No. Unlike this self-righteous speaker, our Lord was full of grace AND truth. He took the opportunity to — lovingly and truthfully — provide something more instructive. It was the woman's accusers who were the brunt of Jesus' rebuke. We can learn from this.

Today's youth culture displays a level of promiscuity and immodesty that is quite shocking to those of us who are older. Unlike my own generation, there are very few restraints. My wife and I see this on a daily basis, having a constant stream of teens in and out of our home. Many have at least some superficial attachment to a "youth ministry" somewhere in our community — often just to fill the void of a non-existent family life. Few, if any, can seriously be called "Christians" — their WWJD bracelets, T-Shirts (et al.) not-withstanding. What they need is direction, teaching, modeling, honesty, compassion . . . and love.

Not rebuke.
Particularly, self-righteous rebuke.

Our God has been gracious to us. Some in my own generation seem to have forgotten that. Those of us who are older need to take these promiscuous, immodest young people into our homes — into our hearts and lives, really — and teach them. Christians have a responsibility to provide a straightforward, positive and BIBLICAL vision of marital intimacy —sexuality — to put along side the prohibitory passages of the Bible that seem to receive the bulk of our attention. It isn't enough to "just say no" — we need to provide this sex-obsessed younger generation with honest answers to honest questions.

We need to TALK about sex. Not just point fingers. And believe me . . . you'll be surprised how many will listen. And they will watch us, noting our example. And, by the grace of God, they will learn . . . and come to know the one who is the giver of such a great gift.

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[This message has been edited by Mrs. Lovelight (edited 5/17/2004 1:58p).]

I could not agree more - that is the type of church I am hoping to be a part of. I want these kids to be able to talk openly with Christian adults about sex and the temptations that go along with them.

In what way do you all think about how masterbation relates to nocturnal emissions (aka, wet dreams)? I've heard wet dreams are the body's way of getting rid of semen, and it is a natural thing for it to occur every so often.

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In what way do you all think about how masterbation relates to nocturnal emissions (aka, wet dreams)? I've heard wet dreams are the body's way of getting rid of semen, and it is a natural thing for it to occur every so often.

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I can never remember ever having one...

That means you've been masterbating too much!

Joking aside, just because you don't remember doesn't mean much. It does happen on a regular basis if you aren't getting rid of it through some ... er, "other means."

edit: Some people do never have them, but it stops after you're in your late teens (or around that age, though there are exceptions). But most boys do at some point. It's also possible for it to happen and for the person to never notice. Well, congratulate me on being an idiot, I should have looked that up before I started posting about it.

[This message has been edited by WHOOO2P!! (edited 5/17/2004 8:50p).]

[This message has been edited by WHOOO2P!! (edited 5/17/2004 8:52p).]

According to the article it's the body's normal response...

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There's a real, physiological component to all this that shouldn't be ignored. A guy's body produces semen that at some point has to be released. This is why a male who doesn't masturbate will have wet dreams where semen is released during sleep.

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It's also been shown to have some benefits for preventing prostate cancer too.

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Well, congratulate me on being an idiot, I should have looked that up before I started posting about it.

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Congratulations!… You need to be a little more easy on yourself… You are what you are by His grace… If it’s for your good to miss something, or to misunderstand it, then rejoice in it, and to Him be the glory


[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 5/18/2004 12:18a).]

People who write commentaries against masturbation are 99% of the time disgusted by sex or married themselves.

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Masturbation is built on a self‑centered view of sex. This wrong attitude says that sex is solely about you and your pleasure. Your body. Your genitals. Your orgasm. This is the natural tendency of sin. It isolates us from others and makes pleasure self‑focused. When our lustful desires are given free rein, sex is pushed into a corner and made a completely self‑centered, isolated experience that reinforces a self‑centered view of life.

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this is a very opinionated statement.

[This message has been edited by AggieJamz (edited 5/18/2004 1:51a).]