I want you to know that my dear friend (who, he and his wife are President Hinckley's Home Teachers) made a special and personal visit (Owen is in his mid 80s) to the Church Historical Library with a copy of Elder LeGrande Richards' book, "A Marvellous Work and A Wonder" where the quote is quite prominently displayed. After an intense search, he and the head librarian found the book "Through Memory's Halls", the Life Story of Elder Orson Whitney. The entire story was on page 222-223. The brilliant Catholic Scholar's name is: (drum roll) Dr. John A. Reiner. My friend is mailing the story to me tomorrow so I will post it when I get it, as the two men had an interesting interchange.

In case you forgot the background or you are new to the subject.

Dr. Reiner came to Utah to learn about the Mormons where he was allowed to speak from the stand of the Salt Lake tabernacle. Elder Whitney of the Quorum of The Twelve stated that he became well acquainted with him and that they conversed freely and frankly. Elder Whitney said that he was a great scholar, with perhaps a dozen languages at his tongue's end. Dr. Reiner seemed to know all about theology, law, literature, science and philosophy. At the end of one day he stated the following to Elder Whitney:

"You Mormons are all ignoramuses. You don't even know the strength of your own position. It is so strong that there is only one other tenable in the whole Christian world, and that is the position of the Catholic Church. The issue is between Catholicism and Mormonism. If we are right, you are wrong; if you are right, we are wrong; and that is all there is to it. The Protestants haven't a leg to stand on. For, if we are wrong, they are wrong with us, since they were a part of us and went out from us; while if we are right they are apostates whom we cut off long ago. If we have the apostolic succession from St. Peter, as we claim, there is no need of Joseph Smith and Mormonism; but if we have not that succession, then such a man as Joseph Smith was necessary and Mormonism's attitude is the only consistent one. It is either perpetuation of the gospel from ancient times, or the restoration of the gospel in latter days."






[This message has been edited by Genesisag (edited 11/12/2007 9:45p).]

[This message has been edited by Genesisag (edited 11/12/2007 9:46p).]

Thanks Genesisag, I'm not acquainted with Dr. Reiner. Maybe some other Catholic here is familiar with him but I'm not. I'll be interested in the reading what your friend is mailing you.



[This message has been edited by jkag89 (edited 11/13/2007 1:59a).]

jk -The book "Through Memory's Halls", the Life Story of Elder Orson Whitney is out of print but you can google it. The book was published in 1930. I have a couple of friends who deal with out of print LDS works and I am going to try see if they can locate one and if they can I will try and borrow the book. The entire story was on page 222-223

jkag89 -I just received the copy of the page that Owen made for me at the Church Historical Library. It was interesting to learn that Dr. Reiner visited Salt Lake City in January of 1898 but the account was first "published" officially in 1922. The story was recounted in the book "Through Memory's Halls, The Life Story of Orson F. Whitney, published in 1930 on pages 222-23.

Dr. Reiner and Elder Whitney became well acquainted. After Dr. Reiner gave his thoughts, that I have previously posted, Elder Whitney responded as follows, while agreeing with some that he said, but in no uncertain terms told him he was mistaken: "Don't deceive yourself with the notion that we 'Mormons' are not aware of the strength of our own position. We know it better than anyone else can know it. We have not all been to college; we cannot all speak the dead languages; and we may be ignoramuses as you say. But we know we are right, and we know you are wrong." (italics added)

Give me an address that I can send this to you and I will, Have a good weekend.



[This message has been edited by Genesisag (edited 11/16/2007 4:31p).]

If anybody wants a copy of the page, give me an address that I can send it to. I would think that since there were some who were so sure it was a "lie" or a "made up story" with possibly a grain of truth, they would want the hard copy.

How do I request those pages from you? I have someone asserting just that right now.

i think we might have a new Bob Dunn persona.

A rook with 1 post who uncovers a GenAg thread thats been dead for 7 months... ?

no offense if you are a different person... but from my understanding, the guy's introduced new handles in similar methods...

[This message has been edited by kbaum07 (edited 6/23/2008 5:10p).]

I'm not sure how this guy is considered intelligent in the least...

He forgot about the third option that they are both wrong.

Sorry Furious, it was either perpetuation of the Priesthood from ancient times or restoration of the ancient priesthood in these latter days. The Protestants have not a leg to stand on in either case. If the tree was dead, no live brances can be taken from it. If the tree was dead, no amount of pruning (read "reformation" will bring it back to life. If the "tree" is still alive, then the Protestants are apostates cut off centuries ago. Definitely no in between!

Maybe I'm missing something, why can't they both be wrong? The premise of either/or is flawed since neither is completely valid.

Furious -I am sorry, but it is easy. If the original Church kept its priesthood authority with its sole right to administer the ordinances that would thus be recognized in heaven, there would be no need for any other church nor would any other church be recognized by God, for as you should remember, He only organized one church. However, if that Church went into a state of apostasy over a period of time and the priesthood authority was withdrawn by the Lord (for it can only be handled except up on the principles of righteousness) and history has shown how corrupt the Lord's church had become, reforming it would do no good. The church would be dead. However, if not in a state of apostasy, none of the Protestant churches would have been authorized by the church that would have first and only held all of the priesthood keys. These other Protestant churches would then have been "apostates" that the original church would have cut off long ago. It is either a perpetuation of the original church or a "restoration" of the original church. There simply can be no in-betweens.

delphiuser -You have the exact quotes from the pages. If someone does not believe you, have them go the Church Historical Library and see for themselves.

Bob - Does juggling all of your secret identities become troublesome after a while?

quote:

---

sole right to administer the ordinances that would thus be recognized in heaven

---

Sorry, but earthly rituals (whether you call them ordinances or not) are not "recognized in heaven."

You don't need special rituals to bring you into God's presence. You need God's Son in your life.

You are sadly mistaken in your search for earthly authority, ib-genesis-diamond-bob.

[This message has been edited by El Sid (edited 6/23/2008 10:53p).]

diamond - you are not following...

I'm not arguing for any protestant answer either.

You are saying the Catholic Church's authority is dead. Fine. We'll assume you are right. Why does the void left from the Catholic Church necessarily mean the Mormons are the new Church? Because a delusional plagiarist (maybe) says so?

Ad hominem aside, why can't the answer be that there is no longer a "valid" priesthood?

Furious - You are not going to convince Bob it not an either or situation. Believe me I tried.

But it's so painfully simple...

quote:

---

How do I request those pages from you?

---

A great start would be anywhere OTHER than a 7 month old thread on a message board you weren't a member of in response to a member who has sense been banned.



I don't think he's GenesisAg, just think he's stupid.

delphiuser is not GEN/IBM/Bob? Wouldn't be stupid qualify him?

And...around and round we go....

Diamond...Are you the poster formally known as GenesisAg? Formally known as IBMAGG? Known as Bob Dunn of Plano, TX?

A straight yes/no answer will suffice.

How does someone with no stars next to their name, and has never posted here previously, find a seven month old thread, or any thread older than 10 days?

So, we think that diamond4 AND delphiuser are Bob????

Not enough information yet about delphiuser, but diamond4's writing style is a perfect match to that of GenesisAg.

If Bob were really smart he would create a non-LDS user and gradually have debates/discussion with that person (himself)...then have that person publically convert to the LDS after "giving in" to Bob's superior arguements.

With his myopia Bob would not be able to construct a believable non-Mormon persona in which to debate and eventually convert.

If Bob were really smart he would create a non-LDS user and gradually have debates/discussion with that person (himself)...then have that person publically convert to the LDS after "giving in" to Bob's superior arguements
***************
So what is it called when someone converts to the LDS? Are they "saved" or or they "free to collect wives" or what?

Furious -I am sorry, but it is easy. If the original Church kept its priesthood authority with its sole right to administer the ordinances that would thus be recognized in heaven, there would be no need for any other church nor would any other church be recognized by God,

The "Church" never had the "sole right to administer the ordinances that would be recognized in heaven." There are no "ordinances recognized in heaven."

for as you should remember, He only organized one church.

He did not organize any church.

However, if that Church went into a state of apostasy over a period of time and the priesthood authority was withdrawn by the Lord (for it can only be handled except up on the principles of righteousness) and history has shown how corrupt the Lord's church had become, reforming it would do no good.

The reforming was practicing faith as put forth in the teachings Of Jesus Christ, not in following the dictates of the priesthood (something that he preached against).

The church would be dead. However, if not in a state of apostasy, none of the Protestant churches would have been authorized by the church that would have first and only held all of the priesthood keys. These other Protestant churches would then have been "apostates" that the original church would have cut off long ago.

Apostates in the eyes of the Catholic Church, but not in the eyes of Heaven.

It is either a perpetuation of the original church or a "restoration" of the original church. There simply can be no in-betweens.

Finally, the correct point. It was restoration of the original church, not the RCC.

Another sock! Wow.

quote:

---

Are they "saved" or or they "free to collect wives" or what?

---

Is there any beer involved?

No one can drink just one...

quote:

---

How does someone with no stars next to their name, and has never posted here previously, find a seven month old thread, or any thread older than 10 days?

---

Welcome to the internet.

Here's a post of yours from four years ago from another board :

http://www.orangepower.com/archive/index.php/t-7647.html

Another

http://christianforums.com/archive/index.php/t-37222.html

(And interestingly enough jkotinek was on that one.)

Nothing you do here is temporary.

NoAC:

The first link is to a post I made, but the second link is to a post by jkotinek quoting (actually misquoting) me from TexAgs. Although, I *have* posted on (and been banned from) Christianforums in the past, but this link isn't one of them.

Nevertheless, I think you're missing the point. You found those posts because you had something to search on. But how does someone who supposedly has never posted here before, find a 6 month old post from GenesisAg? In other words, what would prompt him to go find that post, unless he is GenesisAg? How would he even know that that discussion even took place? How would he find that thread unless he was specifically looking for that particular thread?

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 6/24/2008 7:07p).]

Sid -When the priesthood of God, which has the power to bind heaven and earth, is not found on the earth, you will never find the Church of Jesus Christ. Any yes, there have been periods on the earth where this has been the case. The 600 years before the birth of Christ, Israel was in apostasy. They had not had a prophet during this period until the appearance of John the Baptist.

diamond4.

Perhaps you missed my question....

Are you the poster who use to post as "GenesisAG?"