John 16:33 says - In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

That is not the tribulation that we are referring to when we mention the Great Tribulation. It is a period of time when God's pours out his wrath upon this earth.

The Great Tribulation Period is a horrible period of time that is yet to come upon the earth.

Jesus himself said in Matt. 24:21-23 - "For then shall be Great Tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

It is mentioned by 21 different names in the Old Testament and 9 different names in the New Testament.

The following is a list you might read:

Tribulation

The Time of Jacob’s Trouble – Jer. 30:7
The Seventieth Week of Daniel – Dan. 9:27
Jehovah’s Strange Work – Isa. 28:21
Jehovah’s Strange Act – Isa. 28:21
The Day of Israel’s Calamity – Deut. 32:35, Obadiah 12-14
The Tribulation – Deut. 4:30
The Indignation – Isa. 26:20, Dan. 22:36
The Overflowing Scourge – Isa. 28:15, 18
The Day of Vengeance – Isa. 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The Year of Recompence – Isa. 34:8
The Time of Trouble – Dan. 12:1, Zeph. 1:15
The Day of Wrath – Zeph. 1:15
The Day of Distress – Zeph. 1:15
The Day of Wasteness – Zeph. 1:15
The Day of Desolation – Zeph. 1:15
The Day of Darkness – Zeph. 1:15, 5:18, 20, Joel 2:2
The Day of Gloominess – Zeph. 1:15, Joel 2:2
The Day of Clouds – Zeph. 1:15, Joel 22
The Day of Thick Darkness – Zeph. 1:15, Joel 2:2
The Day of the Trumpet – Zeph. 1:16
The Day of Alarm – Zeph. 1:16

The Day of the Lord – 1 Thess. 5:2
The Wrath of God – Rev. 15:1, 7, 14:10, 19, 16:1
The Hour of Trial – Rev. 3:10
The Great Day of the Wrath of the Lamb of God – Rev. 6:16-17
The Wrath to come – 1 Thess. 1:10
The Wrath - 1 Thess. 5:9, Rev. 11:18
The Great Tribulation – Matt. 24:21, Rev. 2:22, 7:14
The Tribulation – Matt. 24:29
The Hour of Judgment – Rev. 14:7

Zephaniah 1:14-15 describes this horrible period of time that is yet future on this earth.

"The great day of the Lord is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the Lord: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.

That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness, and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness."

The judgments of Rev. 8-9 and Rev. 15-16 are a part of the Great Tribulation Period.

Mac 94,

I think that Marvin Rosenthal, in his book entitled Pre-Wrath Rapture calls the last 3 1/2 years the Great Tribulation which would go along with what you were saying.

The author of that book roughly decided that it would occur roughly midway, give or take, but wasn't dogmatic about the time (from what I remember, the book was a loaner to me).

Anyway, my whole take here is flexability as God will do what He has planned. Like I said, I don't have a problem with the pre-trib as an idea, just don't think it is as scriptural as other theories.

There is alot we don't know in regard to this time period, and probably some things we think we know but are still flat wrong. The religious leaders prior to Jesus' entrance thought they had it figured it out as well ... and we know how that turned out.

One interesting verse, though, is Rev. 15:1(part) "seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God." If the "rapture" is at the "last trump" could that refer to the seventh trumpet judgement and the wrath we are to be delivered from being the seven bowl judgements? Just a thought.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." The words of Jesus; John 16:33

That is a very interesting thought concerning Rev. 15:1.

I have been reading Zola Levitt's booklet entitled The Seven Feasts of Israel Zola is a Jewish Believer thoroughly educated in the synagogues and brought to the Messiah in 1971. He holds several degrees here in the U.S.

He explains the feasts: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement, and Tabernacles.

His Conclusion is interesting:

The following is what he said -

"Now after looking over the feasts, it becomes very clear that God did a momentous thing here.

He forecast the entire career of the Messiah, the Jews, the Church, and even the other nations.

He foresaw the Tribulation Period in all its agony, the presence of the Jew and Gentile together in the Church, and even the detail of leaving the corners of the fields for sustenance for the poor, including His Son and His disciples.

He laid out the feasts in the calendar year in a manner that reflects in proportion the history of the Church. Indeed, those first three feasts, the crucifixion, burial, and resurrection, occurred very close together.

Then there was the pause before the coming of the Holy Spirit. And then the long pause before the big harvest.

The seven feasts reassure us about a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Surely the entire system would be wrecked if the Church were not to be rewarded at Trumpets, but would have to put in an unwarranted Day of Atonement with unbelieving Israel in the Tribulation Period.

We may also see God's clever design shown in the earthly week - six feasts of work and the last one of rest. It is rather like the creation week, in which God worked six days and then relaxed in His Tabernacle on the seventh.


[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/17/2006 3:50p).]

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I have been reading Zola Levitt's booklet entitled The Seven Feasts of Israel Zola is a Jewish Believer thoroughly educated in the synagogues and brought to the Messiah in 1971. He holds severals degrees here in the U.S.

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Zola Levitt isn't a Messianic Jew, he is a Jewish Christian.

That's right Bracy.

Are you familiar with his Seven Feasts of Israel booklet?

I believe Zola Levitt is a fraud. While he claims to be "thoroughly educated in the synagogues" I see no evidence of this in his teachings and, strangely, biographical information about his alleged "synagogue education" is hard to find.

Levitt's teachings are thoroughly Christian in which he attempts to fit scriptural square pegs into Christian doctrinal round holes.

That is interesting.

Are you familiar with Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum? He wrote the book entitled "Footsteps of the Messiah".

How do you feel about the ministry of "Jews for Jesus"?

Do you know anything about "Christian Jew Foundation"?


[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/17/2006 4:18p).]

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Are you familiar with Dr. Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum? He wrote the book entitled "Footsteps of the Messiah".

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Yes, he's another Jewish Christian who received his education from Dallas Theological Seminary of all places. That alone should be enough to send off alarm bells.

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Yes, he's another Jewish Christian who received his education from Dallas Theological Seminary of all places. That alone should be enough to send off alarm bells.

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Please explain the alarm bells.

Are you also opposed to "Jews for Jesus" and the "Christian Jew Foundation"?

If so - Why??? All of these organizations are pro-Israel and are trying to lead people to Yeshua as far as I can tell.

If I am not mistaken, I think Zola Levitt also graduated from Dallas Theological Seminary along with Duquesne University and Indiana University.


[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/17/2006 4:28p).]

Ross:

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Please explain the alarm bells.

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"DTS has earned a popular reputation as a school whose central study is the Bible, and a critical reputation as a school rooted in dispensationalism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas_Theological_Seminary

Dallas Theological Seminary is responsible for perpetuating most of the Christian myths that I have enumerated already in several other threads.

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Are you also opposed to "Jews for Jesus" and the "Christian Jew Foundation"?

If so - Why??? All of these organizations are pro-Israel and are trying to lead people to Yeshua as far as I can tell.

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Yes, I am. Very much so.

Both "Jews for Jesus" and the "Christian Jew Foundation" are aimed at converting Jews to accept the Torah-rebellious, pork-eating, Sabbath-profaning, blonde-haired, blue-eyed Greek "Jesus," instead of the Torah-observant, Torah-abiding, Jewish Torah teacher known as Yeshua HaMashiach.

It is Christianity they are teaching, not Torah truth.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/17/2006 4:48p).]

Well Bracy, I hate to hear that you have such strong views against "Jews for Jesus" and "The Christian Jew Foundation".

I have only known them to be zealous about leading individuals to a saving knowledge of Yeshua HaMashiach.

[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/17/2006 5:21p).]

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I have only known them to be zealous about leading individuals to a saving knowledge of Yeshua HaMashiach.

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They're just leading people out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Bracy, you obviously do not like the seminaries, do you mind telling where you got most of your religious education?

Ross:

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Bracy, you obviously do not like the seminaries, do you mind telling where you got most of your religious education?

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I was trained by teachers who received their education from the seminaries, such as Dallas Theological Seminary. I was indoctrinated with so much DTS nonsense that it has taken me over 26 years to peel away all the layers of false teachings that have come from those schools. It's like the layers of an onion, one on top of the other.

Dispensationalism creates a confused God and confused followers by teaching doctrines which divide God's Plan into two separate "dispensations." It pits Torah against Grace, and an "age of Israel" against a "church age." It leads to anomianism (lawlessness) and pre-tribulational eschatology scenarios to accommodate God's supposed "two sets of people."

Dispensationalists read the bible in terms of 'this applies to me, this doesn't apply to me' instead of acknowledging God has One Way for *all* His children.

Bracy, thank you for taking the time to explain some of your past and how you now think as you do. I can understand that very well.

I know that the word dispensation has become a evil word, I would never try to defend that word.

One thing that they believe, however, is that God has dealt different with people at different times. I have to believe that. You probably don't.

But one example is Adam & Eve.

They had one responsibility: Do Not Eat of the Tree. We don't have that responsibility today.

They Ate and the result was curse & death.

Today our responsibility is much different: By faith trust and receive Yeshua and be led by the Holy Spirit.

Many people today reject Yeshua and trust their own works and the result will be the Great Tribulation that we have been talking about.

Since you have some background, you understand well what I am trying to say.


[This message has been edited by Ross Volunteer (edited 2/17/2006 6:06p).]

Ross:

I've tried to explain this to you, but no matter how I state it, it just doesn't seem to get through:

The Torah never required "perfect Torah obedience." Judaism never taught nor believed that one could inherit eternal life on their own merits through "perfect Torah obedience."

The Torah provided for sin offerings. The only time that a sin offering is offered is when one has VIOLATED the commandments of the Torah. If "perfect Torah obedience" was required, there would be NO REASON for God to provide sin offerings.

All God ever required was that we should obey His Torah commandments with "all our heart, all our soul, all our strength, and all our mind." It means we do it to the very best of our ability and understanding, and if we will do that, then God promises us that Yeshua's blood will atone for our sins.

"Accepting Jesus" means that we keep our end of the Sinai Marriage Covenant -- it means we obey His commandments. THAT is how one "accepts Jesus." Not by saying a little prayer, or "believing" in the English sense of the word. The Hebrew word for "believe" means that we obey.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/17/2006 6:14p).]

I am sorry that you have had to repeat that so many times. I will try not to ask that again in any form.

One question about exile. You said that you are free from parts of the Law because you are living in exile.

Daniel didn't operate that way when he was in exile in Babylon. How would you answer that?

Ross:

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One question about exile. You said that you are free from parts of the Law because you are living in exile.

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We're not "free" from any of it. But there are requirements that we cannot ignore. For instance, if one offers sacrifices in any place other than the place where God chose to place His Name, this would be an act of disobedience of His Torah commandments. There are commandments that apply only to judges, and since I am not a judge, I would be violating the Torah commandments if I went around "stoning adulterors and aduleresses."

All of the commandments apply to me, either in the positive or the negative. I am not "free" to ignore any of them.

Daniel could not offer sacrifices while he was in captivity in Babylon, but he still kept obeying the Torah as is evidenced by the fact that he refused to bow down to false gods.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/17/2006 6:27p).]

Thanks for answering the questions Bracy.

Ross:

No problem, I learned my lesson the hard way.

The doctrines that Dallas Theological Seminary teach effectively removes accountability. It actually encourages one to give in to temptation because "Jesus died for me, so why should I resist? I'm 'saved' whether I do it or not."

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/17/2006 6:53p).]

Which doctrines specifically do you think removes accountability?

I have never heard it said that they give license to sin, but I can see how their emphasis on Grace would tend to make one think that.

I have never taken a course at DTS, but I have read Chafer's Systematic Theology. Are you familiar with that work?

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Which doctrines specifically do you think removes accountability?

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Lots of them, many of which you have repeated.

"We can't keep the Law of Moses"
"If we break one commandment, we break them all, therefore we don't keep any of it"
"Grace is opposed to Law"
"The Law of Moses was only for the Jews"
"Once Saved, Always Saved -- you cannot lose your salvation"

...and so on, and so on.

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I have never taken a course at DTS, but I have read Chafer's Systematic Theology. Are you familiar with that work?

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Yes, it's pure rubbish. Lewis Sperry Chafer, Charles Ryrie... I wish I had never heard of them. If I sound angry at them, it's because I am. Their doctrines lead to destruction, very quickly, and very nearly led to mine.

[This message has been edited by Bracy (edited 2/18/2006 12:01a).]

I know about tribulations...


Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying, " Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."



I rejoice in the tribulaitons!

Romans 5:3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5 and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.




Cause I know who is in charge, and I know they are only for a season!

Romans 8:35 Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?





[This message has been edited by Notafraid (edited 2/18/2006 12:17a).]

Notafraid:

There are tribulations that God sends in order to test and strengthen our faith, and then there are tribulations that He sends in order to bring us *back* to him because we've wandered far off the narrow path.

While I rejoice that God brought me back to Him, I really don't want to experience *that* kind of tribulation again.

Bracy, I understand now that you are not in sympathy with the teaching of DTS, but you do believe in a period called the Tribulation or Jacob's time of trouble, don't you?

And I assume that you also believe it will last for seven (7) years. (Daniel's seventieth week of years)?

Ross:

I don't believe that the scriptures teach of a seven-year tribulation period. I believe they teach a 3 1/2 year tribulation period.

And then you see that period beginning with the Abomination of Desolation. Is that right?

Ross:

Yes, that is correct.

Boy, yer off the computer a few days and ya miss alot ...

Bracy:

First, just to be up front in my roots, I am a Baptist and came to Christ in a Baptist church. Not reaslly important other than it may give some insight into where I learn things (or not). Anyway,

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"Accepting Jesus" means that we keep our end of the Sinai Marriage Covenant -- it means we obey His commandments. THAT is how one "accepts Jesus." Not by saying a little prayer, or "believing" in the English sense of the word. The Hebrew word for "believe" means that we obey.

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Very true. Again, we may disgree on what part of God's commands can be obeyed and such, but the basic idea that we must obey is still there. One cannot reconcile the books of James and John with Paul without the idea of obedience being a key idea. It does not save us, but it is the fruit of our salvation and therefor essential. We (evangeleical Christianity) have made this idea of coming to God a bit "to easy." We have boiled it down to alomst a "say the magic word and 'poof' fire insurance" type of gig. A sinners prayer is a good thing, as prayer is our communication with God, but it is the heart attitude that is key, not the words in a prayer. David rightfully said, a broken spirit and a contrite heart God would not deny. The "savlation experience," though, is the first baby step in a journey. Salvation sin't a one time gig and thats it, it is a life change towards a Loving and Holy God.

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"We can't keep the Law of Moses"

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I don't think we can, and you've hinted as much in the idea that sin offerings were there for when we do mess up. We are all sinners in need of God's mercy. Of course, does that mean we chunk the whole thing because we can't do it, of course not. Our inability doesn't negate a thing. God's command; "be ye Holy as I am Holy" is still in effect, even though by my own strength and character I can't do it. This shows me my need for a savior, the true sacrifice for my sin, not that we should just "give up" because we can't.

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"If we break one commandment, we break them all, therefore we don't keep any of it"

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I do beleive that if we break just one small point we are guilty of breaking all of it. That again shows our need of a savior. It doesn't mean we can just say, oh what the heck, I'm gonna mess up anyway so why even bother. We strive to obey and love our Lord, but if we do mess up, we have an advocate we can turn to in Jesus.

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"Grace is opposed to Law"

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Nope, the Law does show us our need of grace, and it also shows His grace (if we look for it). The Law shows the part of the character of God, it shows us His Heart, so to speak. At least what we can know of it.

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"The Law of Moses was only for the Jews"

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No, it was given to the Jews and they were to point the world to God. God does not change, He does not have two sets of rules for group (a) and group (b).

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"Once Saved, Always Saved -- you cannot lose your salvation"

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I wrestle with this one, esp since I am in a church that teaches this. Scripture seems to point, though, to me anyway, that salvation can be lost if we turn against God and we rebuke His loving guidence back to Him (God is patient). However, there is one verse that I can't get around, and it is this: "depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." The key for me is the word "never." The way I understand it, if we are a part of God's kingdom, part of His flock, He knows us, we are His and He dwells in us. If that is so, how can the Lord use the word "never" to those that once had fellowship but turned or fell away?

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Yes, that is correct (refering to the Abomination of Desolation)

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So, do you beleive that the Temple must be rebuilt before these events casn occur or do you translate the abomination to mean something else?


"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." The words of Jesus; John 16:33

Mac,

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So, do you believe that the Temple must be rebuilt before these events can occur

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I know this question was addressed to Bracy and I have been waiting for his response also.

In any event, I think that the temple must be rebuilt before the Abomination of Desolation could occur because the Anti-Christ will cause the sacrifices to cease.

Dan. 9:27 - "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

I would think there would have to be a temple of some sort for the sacrifices to be made.

EDIT: Additional information from Believer's Bible Commentary.

Then he (the Roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many (the unbelieving majority of the nation of Israel) for one week (the seven-year Tribulation Period).

It may be a friendship treaty, a non-aggression treaty, or a guarantee of military assistance against any nation attacking Israel.

But in the middle of the week he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. The Roman prince will turn hostile toward Israel, forbidding further sacrifices and offerings to Jehovah.

And on the wing of abominations. We learn from Matthew 24:15 that he will set up an abominable idolatrous image in the temple and presumably he will command that it be worshipped. Some think that wing here refers to a wing of the temple.


[This message has been edited by South Zone (edited 2/21/2006 2:33p).]

South Zone -

Yeah, that's the standard answer, but Bracy has a different take on alot of standard Christian theology, so I thought he might have a different take.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." John 14:6

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world." The words of Jesus; John 16:33

Mac94,

Yeah, I understand. He is very interesting to read. I have missed his comments today.

I was reading about the Tribulation in Unger's Bible Dictionary and Unger calls the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 years, The Great Tribulation as Bracy does.

The following is from Unger:

"The Great Tribulation. This is the period of unparalleled suffering which, according to premillennial eschatology, will precede the establishment of the future kingdom of Israel(Acts 1:6).

The trouble will embrace the entire earth (Rev. 3:10). Yet in a very distinctive sense it will center upon Jerusalem and Palestine, being called by Jeremiah specifically "the time of Jacob's trouble" (Jer. 30:7).

It will involve the Jewish people who will have gone back to Palestine in unbelief. It will also be connected with catastrophic judgments upon the Gentile nations because of their wickedness and anti-Semitism.

The colossal scenes of the Revelation, beginning with chapter 5, with the opening of the seven-sealed book, through chapter 10, form a prelude to world-wide commotion prior to the Great Tribulation itself described in Rev. 11-18.

The Great Tribulation is made identical with the last three and one-half years of Daniel's Seventieth Week of years (Dan. 24-27; Rev. 11:2,3)

Mac94 and South Zone:

Heh! Thanks for the kind words.

Today has been a rather busy day and I just haven't had time to post anything that takes longer than a few seconds to write.

I'm aware of your questions, and will answer them as soon as I can find time.