a Couple of thoughts.

Cost will always be at least somewhat a barrier for golf. Never mind perfect conditions, the minimum requirements to maintain a golf course are still pretty expensive. I recently played the public course in Copperas Cover and it was in good enough shape to still be fun and was still $30. I am sure that course is a tax burden. Even the public courses in Fort Worth lose many and they are usually covered up with $15-$30 tee times. Trying to do that every week in today's America is just not practical for a lot of families.

That leads directly to activities for kids. If the parents cannot afford it for themselves, they sure as hell cannot afford it for them and their children. I am not sure what % of the population is immediately ruled out by this, but it is substantial.

The effects of the recession.

I play at Wildflower in Temple. I have only been there for about 6 months, but we are COVERED with kids. I mean if school is not in session we are covered. And it is a beautiful thing. The members, with a few exceptions, clearly encourage kids of all ages and make room for them. Other than Saturday and Sunday mornings, you will find kids there all of the time. I take my 4 and 7 year olds out in the afternoons and they always draw a smile. I grew up on a course that had the same great attitude towards kids.

Kids generally look for ways to release energy, and golf doesn't do that. My kids' favorite time playing golf is not hitting the ball. It is running after it after they hit it. That natural tendency will push kids towards soccer, basketball, etc.

As for the USGA rules, I do not think that has any effect on it. I know few people who actually follow every rule in the book and even fewer that give a damn about them. I used to get annoyed when people wouldnt follow the rules but now it doesn't bother me. Whatever is fun for them. On the first tee if you are playing some game you can make up any rule you want. The USGA is not going to stop you.

Pace of play is clearly an issue, and the play it forward campaign was directed at that. NOw that I have gone from DFW public to private I do not have that problem any more. But it never really bothered me anyway.

One thing that would be nice is more nine hole rates. Just don't see that often.

I walked Saturday as a 2some in 2:55 and Sunday as a 3some in 3:15. It can be done. 4+ hour rounds of golf are miserable to me. If it's dragging on, a lot of times I will quit after 9 and go hit on the range. I quit playing our men's golf association events because they were taking 5 hours.
I think the time and money commitment is the biggest thing holding the game back at all ages.

I hear you. People have to learn how to pace themselves. Just two weekends ago I was playing in a group that teed off around 1 and finished in 3:55. We would occasionally touch the group in front of us and then they would pull away. But there was a 3 some behind us that stayed on our ass as if there was someplace to go. Just relax, take an extra swing or look at the putt you are about to miss was all I kept thinking. We just ignored them.

It can be a tough balance. Growing up at a country club, my parents made sure we never were slowing down others. That partially lead to me not enjoying the game. I still have a tough time if a group ever waits on us, although not as bad if we are waiting.

The double bogey rule mentioned earlier would eliminate true handicaps in the 20s and if followed would have some people rarely ever putting.

One thing that can be improved is course design. When i see traps or hazards hat come into play off the tee only for really bad players I wonder what the purpose is. Make courses more playable and easier to find the ball.

Proper marshaling also helps.

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One thing that can be improved is course design. When i see traps or hazards hat come into play off the tee only for really bad players I wonder what the purpose is. Make courses more playable and easier to find the ball.

Proper marshaling also helps.

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If these really bad players were playing from forward tees would those hazards still be in play?

If there is a hazard that requires a 200 yard carry off the tee from the 6400 yard tees but only a 170 yard carry from the 6000 yard tees, I don't think that's a course design problem.

I imagine if the parents don't have any interest in golf, then getting their kids into the game is going to be tough.

I'd argue the game is even more accessible today than it was 50 years ago.

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One thing that can be improved is course design. When i see traps or hazards hat come into play off the tee only for really bad players I wonder what the purpose is. Make courses more playable and easier to find the ball.

Proper marshaling also helps.

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If these really bad players were playing from forward tees would those hazards still be in play?

If there is a hazard that requires a 200 yard carry off the tee from the 6400 yard tees but only a 170 yard carry from the 6000 yard tees, I don't think that's a course design problem.

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I almost always play the whites so considering it from where I'm playing. The 200 carry is more extreme than I'm talking. I'll try and get some examples when I play Saturday.

I hate waiting on slow groups, but I can't handle people waiting on my group. It's never my fault, but it kills me when someone in my group is slowing down everyone behind us. I just assume quit than be the group holding up play.

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It can be a tough balance. Growing up at a country club, my parents made sure we never were slowing down others. That partially lead to me not enjoying the game. I still have a tough time if a group ever waits on us, although not as bad if we are waiting.

The double bogey rule mentioned earlier would eliminate true handicaps in the 20s and if followed would have some people rarely ever putting.

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Well, the current USGA handicap system caps scores at double bogey for those under a 10 handicap and triple bogey for those over a 10 handicap. So, this wouldn't really have any impact on handicap. And yes - if folks are not putting by their double bogey shot, I'm absolutely saying they should pick up and move on.

I firmly believe that people hitting the ball 8, 9, 10+ times on a hole is a major drag on pace of play. It seems far more prevalent at public courses (at least to me).

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It can be a tough balance. Growing up at a country club, my parents made sure we never were slowing down others. That partially lead to me not enjoying the game. I still have a tough time if a group ever waits on us, although not as bad if we are waiting.

The double bogey rule mentioned earlier would eliminate true handicaps in the 20s and if followed would have some people rarely ever putting.

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Well, the current USGA handicap system caps scores at double bogey for those under a 10 handicap and triple bogey for those over a 10 handicap. So, this wouldn't really have any impact on handicap. And yes - if folks are not putting by their double bogey shot, I'm absolutely saying they should pick up and move on.

I firmly believe that people hitting the ball 8, 9, 10+ times on a hole is a major drag on the game.

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These are course handicaps, not your index:

9 or better is capped at double bogey
10-19 is capped at 7
20-29 is capped at 8
30-39 is capped at 9
40+ is capped at 10

It's also worth noting that if you're a 15 handicap playing in a stroke play tournament, the max score for the purpose of adjusting your handicap is 7, but your score is still how many strokes it takes you to hole out. The max score for the hole is not capped, but for the purpose of your handicap your score is adjusted down to your max.

Pace of play is certainly an issue, but it's not just the 5 hour rounds. What if you could be done in 3.5? Add in travel and setup time you're still over 4.5 hours out of your Saturday. Our culture is moving further and further away from being able to do that. Even if you don't have kids, a lot of 20 somethings just don't have the attention span.

I also think max scores are going to make very little difference in pace of play. Same goes for the play it forward campaign. In high school me and 3 other idiots could easily finish in under 4 hours. All carrying our clubs, all shooting 110+. In triple digit summer heat. It's not hard.

I started playing at 6 or 7. Dad was a scratch golfer and really taught us to respect the game, as well as other people's time on the course. That's all it takes. It has way more to do with how you're raised than your scorecard. Hell, I feel the urge to apologize to the people behind me when it takes too long to place my order at Whataburger. You don't suddenly start respecting other people's time just because they shave a few strokes off your round.

Since this has kind of veered into a pace of play discussion, I'll add my 2 cents. I'm a hack. Took up the game not long ago and just recently started breaking 100 consistently. So I'm no golf snob. And I hate playing with (or behind) folks that insist on spending 10 minutes trying to find every ball they launch wayward. I'm convinced that THIS is what slows down play more than anything. If you are a better golfer that might only have a handful get away from in a round, then I understand (within reason). But as a hack who hits it sideways with regularity, I buy cheaper balls, pack a lot of them and never spend more than a minute looking before dropping. My experience is that this approach is not the norm. But if it were I think general speed of play would improve dramatically, particularly on public courses.

You hit the nail on the head. Awareness, knowledge, and respect. Plenty of people can shoot 110 and play in under 4 hours. Plenty of people can shoot 75 and play in 5 hours.
If you're an ass, you're an ass whether you're scratch or a 30 index.

Most slow players don't know their slow. Also charging $100 to play golf people are going to darn well play like they choose.

But I think growing the game still involves giving kids more access and having special kids areas to help them.

Meh. In my experience I have found just as many asses who think it is a race as I have asses that do not care if they are slowing everyone down. I have in my years been involved in various men's games generally teeing off in prime times, both on public courses and private ones. Generally the rounds last in the 4-4:30 range. If I tee off with my friends away from those games we are a little quicker.

I completely disagree with something said earlier. I do not lose many golf balls. But when I do you can bet your ass I am going to spend more than 60 seconds looking for it. And assuming another player in my group, or the group in front of me, is at least a good player I fully expect them to take the time to try to find it. Now if you are losing ten a round or just fishing for golf balls, that is different. If my round is blown and I hit ball number 4 in the trees, I probably will not give it ten seconds. But if we are on 14 and I am scoring a round I am going to try to find it.

I have told this story on here before but this guy always sticks in my mind. I was in a tournament at Grapevine Municipal a few years ago and it was bogging down a little. But it was a perfect day. We played ABCD, and I was the A, but all the others could play. Anyway one of the guys was just furious how slow we were playing. He could not wait to hit his next shot to the point that he was almost hitting into the group in front of us. I took some time on a putt around hole 5 and he said out loud I needed to hurry even though there was nowhere to go. On the next hole either me or another player(cant remember now) was about 12 feet for birdie and was lined up with the ball and this guy walks up to his marker 4 feet from the hole, puts the ball down, putts, misses, gets mad, then taps in. Completely out of line and we called him out on it. What killed me was we finished the round in about 4:30. The 1/2/3 places in the brackets all paid into the hundreds of dollars. Whats the hurry man? Settle down and enjoy your day.

I had another guy in Vegas furious about the fact that me and my buddy played two balls each in a twosome to the point that he called us out in the clubhouse and was literally yelling and cussing. Of course we were waiting on every tee and every fairway on the foursome in front of us. We were just pacing the round. If we would have played just one ball each he would have finished in the exact same time.

Just two weeks ago a 3some would not get off our ass. We played in about 4 and got to our tee shots on 18 as the group in front of us was putting in the flag. These guys were also almost hitting into us. I do not think there was anyone behind them. Back off.

I have found that one of the biggest differences between good players and good tournament players are their ability to handle different paces of play and make adjustments. I have played hundreds of competitive tournament rounds in different leagues and organizations and this is a BIG factor for a lot of guys. Learn to read a putt twice, or take an extra look at a yardage book. Relax.

Last, fast play does not by itself translate to good etiquette. I am fine with ready golf on the tee. No reason to wait on the guy who made birdie. I am also fine with playing out of turn if someone is looking for a ball, just chipped over the green, etc. But otherwise people need to play in turn. Do not get 40 yards in front of me in my direct line if I am about to hit. It is not your turn. Do not hit a putt from 8 feet when I am 20 feet assuming we both arrived at the green at the same time. If you were smart you would want to watch my putt before you hit yours. Do not rush.

As long as nobody is ****ing around, you can do the things in the paragraph above in under 4 hours. But it is not a race.










That all being said, I do not think pace of play is that big of a deterrent. Bad pace happens when courses are packed. If they are packed then finding players must not be a problem.


OK. Almost done. IMHO the biggest cause of pace of play problems, like the 5:30 it took us one time on Fossil Creek, is people who did not grow up playing, learned as adults, and were never taught any etiquette. I see guys who it never occurs to them to look back and have absolutely no concept of time on the golf course. Most of them started playing long after their most impressionable years. Those of us that grew up playing no better.

I won't argue with any of that. I think a lot of the pace of play issue is just being a decent, respectful person. Realize you're not the only one on the course whether you're fast or slow...just be aware. Don't drag ass and cause backups and don't throw temper tantrums and hit into groups in front. Enjoy your round, you're out there to have fun.

You said you disagree with my point as it relates to yourself who is a good player....did you notice I made the exact same distinction. High handicappers (like me) is who I was expressly referring to. That is clearly not you so relax.

Fair enough. I read a bunch of responses while eating and got yours mixed in with another.

entitlement. golfers that pay a green fee feel entitled to hit as many balls, looks for as many as they want and generally do whatever because they "have the right to". It's the same idiot mindset that is a problem with our society in general.

I don't play much socially - I only play tournaments for the most part. When I do play socially I don't mind the complete random pairing with a stranger. I have found that more than likely they will do something that irritates me - talk too much, poor etiquette, slow play. I have found it helps me deal with that stuff better and forces me to focus on my game more.

When with a complete stranger, i'll look for a ball for them that I think is reasonably findable. If not - I don't even make the effort. it just slows down everything.

If we are playing slow as a group, I'll say something and tell people to just hit when they are ready.

Someone got irritated at me one time for looking for my ball for too long. One of those "it has to be right here" situations. I think I was -1 on the round and didn't want that to go south. It was the first time all day we were waiting on me - that got to me. Dude forgot to take into account we were looking for his balls on almost every hole.

I think lower handicap players can take a bit more time reading a putt, getting a yardage, etc. because the overall number of times they are "on the clock" is less because they hit fewer shots over the course of the day. This doesn't happen on every shot either, because while you are waiting for someone to 3-chip their way to the green, you can be sizing up your putt. I never race through my round, but I am certainly never the one holding up the group.

someone on this board has to be a slow player. odds show it. I don't think people realize if they are slow.

But we are talking about growing the game and we all agree that the pace of play is an issue and is one of the reasons why people aren't playing as much today as they were. It pretty much kills the day, unless you are playing first thing in the AM.

I think the game is in a good spot. Tons of good, young talent on the PGA Tour to make kids fans. I always see kids at the Dallas munis I frequent. It will always be a game that most people take up after HS because of the cost/time requirement/patience/can't play other sports anymore.

As for pace of play, I don't think that's a huge hinderance. If you could cut a round in half from 4-4.5 hr to 2hr, sure, that would make a big difference, but shortening rounds to 3-3.5 isn't a huge thing that would bring people to the game. Not to say I like slow play or 5 hour rounds,but I think pace of play is more an annoyance for current golfers, not a hindrance to the game for potential new golfers.

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Meh. In my experience I have found just as many asses who think it is a race as I have asses that do not care if they are slowing everyone down.

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That may be your experience, but in mine it's more like 3 slow a-holes per 1 racer a-hole. regardless, even if it were 1:1, the 1 slow player can back up a whole course for several hours. the 1 racer a-hole is only being an a-hole to a maximum of two groups.

To be fair, the raging speed demon can't be fixed. Those guys are never wrong and think the world revolves around them. As the saying goes, If you think someone is an a-hole, they might be an a-hole. If you think everyone is an a-hole, you're the a-hole.

Slow players can be the same way, but many of them are just unaware, and will pick it up if you give them a chance.

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OK. Almost done. IMHO the biggest cause of pace of play problems, like the 5:30 it took us one time on Fossil Creek, is people who did not grow up playing, learned as adults, and were never taught any etiquette. I see guys who it never occurs to them to look back and have absolutely no concept of time on the golf course. Most of them started playing long after their most impressionable years. Those of us that grew up playing no better.

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I agree 100%. I just think this demographic makes up a significant portion of weekend public course players. I don't know how to effectively change this problem without an initiative from the USGA for a per-hole stroke max. They've tried just about everything else short of a fundamental game change (i.e. 12 holes, bigger cups, etc).

I don't know that pace of play is keeping new people and kids from playing since they probably don't know what that is until they've played for a while. What I really was wondering, and perhaps I worded the thread title poorly, is why do so few people play with their kids?

That's really what I meant as far as growing the game.

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I don't know that pace of play is keeping new people and kids from playing since they probably don't know what that is until they've played for a while. What I really was wondering, and perhaps I worded the thread title poorly, is why do so few people play with their kids?

That's really what I meant as far as growing the game.

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Kids get bored fast. Tee boxes stacked 3 groups deep = severe boredom. Hell I can't stand it and I'm a grown ass man. Therefore, slow pace of play -> boredom -> kids not liking golf -> not taking your kids to play golf.

Add in all the other stuff (cost, overall time commitment, equipment needed, etc) and you have a game that isn't kid friendly.

It sucks, because I played a lot as a little kid. But it was on a little 9 hole muni in Luling, TX. Pace of play was not an issue. My dad rarely took me to play in the city.

And after the game exploded in the late 90's...forget it. Nowadays, I won't even play for free at a crowded public course with or without kids.

Pace of play isn't about total strokes. It's about playing ready golf. I play with a few slowish players. We get to the tee and I'm almost always the first to tee off because I grab my driver and step up while they take their sweet time.

Be ready to hit when your turn. Do whatever green reading you can before your turn. You don't have to run to play fast, just be ready.

I can't wait to try and play with my kids once they are old enough (and hopefully interested). But it is obviously not practical until they have a chance to learn some basics. That's why I think a kids practice area would make such a big difference and allow parents a way to "play" with them while learning before they are ready to tackle an actual course. If a course had an area specifically geared to promote fun learning for kids, I bet there would be a waiting line. And then even if such kids get pulled into other sports during middle/high school, they will be way more apt to come back to golf down the road, thus fostering long term growth of the sport.

I was on the board of the First Tee of Southern Nevada when I lived out there. We didn't have a shortage of kids. We did at times have a shortage of volunteers and could get frustrated with access.

Kids areas are awesome, but it's the grownups that have to encourage the play and make kids feel welcome. That's one thing I like about Wildflower. Everyone seems to take pride in the amount of kids that enjoy the course.

When I was playing Grapevine Municipal I can count on one hand how many kids I saw on the course other than the high school golf teams.