I heard on Sirius golf radio yesterday some discussion of the net loss of courses, USGA rules aimed at pros but forced on amateurs, little attention given to pace of play, the cost of playing and the ultimate effect on the number of golfers. I believe it was Michael Breed and a guy from USGA having the discussion.

What really concerns me is the lack of kids I see playing. I belong to 2 clubs and play with my son who just turned 13. He's been playing with me regularly since he was 3 or 4. At our home course, Houston Oaks, I've seen 2 other kids playing in the 8 years we've been members. At Traditions I think I've only seen one other kid playing in the 4 years we've been there.

Why is that? What's the long term impact on the game?

I didn't take golf up until later in life so I realize playing as a kid isn't a requirement, but is there reason for concern?

I'm old, about to turn 59, and I can't believe more guys don't play with their kids. As I said my son just turned 13 and we play on average 6 or 7 rounds per month together. At Houston Oaks the place is crawling with kids every weekend but only the 3 kids play that I've ever seen.

How does this bode for the future of the game if not many kids are playing?

I was having this discussion the other day with a friend (non golfer). I was arguing that the sport was becoming less popular with my generation and he had the opposite thought. He thought golf was the cool thing to do. He said that lots of people are picking it up now and he sees a bunch of young people at topgolf every time he's there.

I argued that top golf is nothing like real golf. Anyone can have fun screwing around there for a couple hours every now and then, but that doesn't meant they actually play golf.

His thought was that with used clubs on ebay/craigslist, etc being affordable, people would stop seeing golf as an elitist sport and pick it up. With the "cool" kids like Speith, Rory and Ricky emerging, he felt more and more people would pick up the sport.

I, on the other hand, argued that kids may try to pick it up, but it takes a LOT of time and effort into becoming good. When people don't see immediate improvement, they are going to give up. Plus, what middle school or high school kid these days has 5-6 hours to spend on a golf course? When I'm on a gold course, I rarely see people my age or younger (I'm 24) out there. Even the people I normally play with are in their late 30s.

I think the younger generation of pros will help get people interested in viewership, but I don't think it will make people put in the time, money, and effort it takes to play the game.

Honestly, just my 0.02, but I don't buy the too expensive theory. I think that's an old, antiquated view. Nowadays you can get a brand new starter set for reasonable price, Academy sells a plethora of refurbished balls on the cheap, and playing a round can be done about $40-50 (probably cheaper with junior rates and walking).

It's no more expensive than what parents spend on football/baseball gear and traveling expenses to play other select sports like soccer, basketball, or lacrosse. People drop some serious coin for their kids to play other sports.

I think a large part of it has to do with being an individual sport. Parents are more likely to push their kids to something that creates interactions with other kids. Sports like football, baseball, and basketball offers both kids and parents socializing opportunities that they just don't get with golf. Plus the whole 4 hours per round is a big drawback. You can play organized sports multiple times per week and it still doesn't add up to the time it takes for one round of golf.

I think the USGA really needs to push how beneficial golf is over the span of a lifetime. You don't play baseball, basketball, and football all your life, but golf is something that can be enjoyed into your old age (or for some like my grandpa REALLY old age).

A relevant data point that I have never actually heard is when, did the current population golfers take up the game? What percentage took it up as a little kid versus as a teenager or as an adult?

This is obviously simply anecdotal, but I normally play golf with my buddy from Denver, my father-in-law, and a golf buddy who lives around here. All of us would currently qualify as "avid golfers" since we all play once a week or more on average.

• I got one lesson when I was younger and didn't really take to it. Started getting a little bit of interest when I was in college and didn't take it up with any kind of regularity until I was about 25.
• My buddy from Denver didn't swing a club until he was about 12 or 13. His dad got him one lesson and he didn't like it and didn't really play until college. Started playing regularly in his early 20s.
• My father-in-law didn't take up the game until he was 38 and now plays a couple rounds a week.
• Golf buddy who lives nearby didn't start playing until he was 30.

Based on my very limited observation, it is very common for people to pick up the game when they get older rather than as kids. Makes sense to me since golf requires a lot of patience and focus that most human beings don't develop until they get a little older.

I've got a one year old daughter, and then only thing I want her to get into is golf. And what I mean, is I want her to want to come out to the golf course, just her and I. Whether it is her driving around with me, hitting a few shots, or playing competitively, I don't care. I just want her to enjoy being on the golf course with her dad in some form or fashion.

To grow they game? Maybe having a model like the frisbee golf courses have, or even just a 4 - 6 hole "golf course". One that is free, for anyone to come up and enjoy. Obviously, there would be lots of things to work out, taking care of the course, liability, etc. But if there was a public area, where kids could just go hit balls and "play" a few holes for a few hours, that would be huge. Again, I am not sure how or what this would look like...

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Honestly, just my 0.02, but I don't buy the too expensive theory. I think that's an old, antiquated view. Nowadays you can get a brand new starter set for reasonable price, Academy sells a plethora of refurbished balls on the cheap, and playing a round can be done about $40-50 (probably cheaper with junior rates and walking).

It's no more expensive than what parents spend on football/baseball gear and traveling expenses to play other select sports like soccer, basketball, or lacrosse. People drop some serious coin for their kids to play other sports.

I think a large part of it has to do with being an individual sport. Parents are more likely to push their kids to something that creates interactions with other kids. Sports like football, baseball, and basketball offers both kids and parents socializing opportunities that they just don't get with golf. Plus the whole 4 hours per round is a big drawback. You can play organized sports multiple times per week and it still doesn't add up to the time it takes for one round of golf.

I think the USGA really needs to push how beneficial golf is over the span of a lifetime. You don't play baseball, basketball, and football all your life, but golf is something that can be enjoyed into your old age (or for some like my grandpa REALLY old age).

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Team golf has been discussed, and it is something that could help grow the game. I know a lot of amateurs that want ever play by themselves, or even play their own ball (because of lack of skill). But if they got to play as part of a team, where they didn't have to rely solely on their score, that could help also.

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Honestly, just my 0.02, but I don't buy the too expensive theory. I think that's an old, antiquated view. Nowadays you can get a brand new starter set for reasonable price, Academy sells a plethora of refurbished balls on the cheap, and playing a round can be done about $40-50 (probably cheaper with junior rates and walking).

It's no more expensive than what parents spend on football/baseball gear and traveling expenses to play other select sports like soccer, basketball, or lacrosse. People drop some serious coin for their kids to play other sports.

I think a large part of it has to do with being an individual sport. Parents are more likely to push their kids to something that creates interactions with other kids. Sports like football, baseball, and basketball offers both kids and parents socializing opportunities that they just don't get with golf. Plus the whole 4 hours per round is a big drawback. You can play organized sports multiple times per week and it still doesn't add up to the time it takes for one round of golf.

I think the USGA really needs to push how beneficial golf is over the span of a lifetime. You don't play baseball, basketball, and football all your life, but golf is something that can be enjoyed into your old age (or for some like my grandpa REALLY old age).

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I disagree. Golf is more expensive than other youth sports. Prices upfront for equipment may be comparable but with golf unlike other sports every time you wanna play or practice it costs money. It is a whole lot easier and cheaper to go out in the yard and bounce a ball in the driveway or go to a neighbors house and play football than it is to drive to a range or golf course and have to pay to hit balls.... I assume most parents don't want to or have the means to pay for a bucket of balls or a round of golf to only watch their child duff them everywhere as they are learning the game.

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I've got a one year old daughter, and then only thing I want her to get into is golf. And what I mean, is I want her to want to come out to the golf course, just her and I. Whether it is her driving around with me, hitting a few shots, or playing competitively, I don't care. I just want her to enjoy being on the golf course with her dad in some form or fashion.

To grow they game? Maybe having a model like the frisbee golf courses have, or even just a 4 - 6 hole "golf course". One that is free, for anyone to come up and enjoy. Obviously, there would be lots of things to work out, taking care of the course, liability, etc. But if there was a public area, where kids could just go hit balls and "play" a few holes for a few hours, that would be huge. Again, I am not sure how or what this would look like...

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I took up golf at 50 only because this now 13 year old son showed interest and pretty quickly I discovered it would be a lot of me and him time. You will not regret taking your girl with you.

We're very fortunate at Houston Oaks to have an additional 9 hole par 3 course and a 1st Tee facility on the property which we can use when they're not in session but I still don't see members taking their kids out to play.

I think another thing that would help the game in the US is to play different kinds of games.

More match play, more alternate shot, more best ball, more stableford. Another benefit is that these other types of play are more conducive to playing just a few holes.

Golf is different than a team sport,most team sports a parent drops them off and they are taken care of until they pick them back up. Golf is different where the parent has to take time out of their day to either stay at the range or take them on the course. When I was teaching I would say almost half my kid lessons were just an hour of babysitting. For the kid to really enjoy golf they want friends or family to join in. Little Linksters I think has the best approach, you can go caddie for your kid in the tournaments which makes for a cool experience for both. Until parents start involving themselves more it will be hard to grow the young crowd.

The junior camps at the course I used to practice at in Golden seemed to have a very good system. They mostly hung out around the greens and had some different chipping and putting games they would play. There was some putting game called "Poison" that all of the kids just loved.

The instructor I talked to said that the whole point of the camps from the golf perspective was to help the kids become good chippers and putters. At that age pretty much any kid has the athletic ability to be successful at it so they put their focus on that. The full swing stuff was mostly the equivalent of recess in grade school. They would time their range sessions to align with when the ball picker was out so they could all try to hit it.

It certainly looked like most of the kids were having a really good time.

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I've got a one year old daughter, and then only thing I want her to get into is golf. And what I mean, is I want her to want to come out to the golf course, just her and I. Whether it is her driving around with me, hitting a few shots, or playing competitively, I don't care. I just want her to enjoy being on the golf course with her dad in some form or fashion.

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In my opinion, this is the right way to do it.

Take them out to the course/range/green...etc. and just have fun...doing whatever. I've got a 5 year old and he and I go out the course several times per week. What he doesn't understand just yet is that I'm taking him not only for him to have fun, but for me to spend quality 1 on 1 time without competing with a TV, or a Tablet, or something else.

Back to the OP...I routinely see clinics and camps of 10 or more out at the Driving Range (most under 10 years old).

Something that hasn't been addressed is sports specialization. Things aren't like they were when we were kids (play as many sports as possible). I see parents really pushing guiding their kids into specific sports and then living and breathing that sport. Golf may be a distraction/waste of daylight for those folks that think their kids should be hyper-focused on whatever sport they're pushing. Just my opinion through observation though.

Edit...re-read and deleted off topic.

Those are both pretty high dollar clubs which could have something to do with it. Lots of youth programs in Houston are growing with more programs starting up. If you're at HO, there's a First Tee facility there that's grown tremendously in the several years it's been there.
I see tons of kids playing at Kingwood, where I'm a member. I think the game is in good hands.

When I was a kid, we were always outside. Playing games, making up games, riding bikes, going to parks, etc. Golf was something we could go do that was outside and it took all day, so that was a positive for me. Also a positive because it was such a challenge and I really like challenges. I got the golf bug early. My mom would drop me off in the morning and I would always finish 18 with the headlights from her car on the final green. I feel like I did this 5 days out of the week during the summer and most weekend during school. Other sports went by the way side when I hit about 13.

Now, I don't think being outside all day is viewed as positive from a kids point of view. They have too much indoors to entertain them so that is what they want more of. The dynamic has been completely flipped.

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I assume most parents don't want to or have the means to pay for a bucket of balls or a round of golf to only watch their child duff them everywhere as they are learning the game.

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we couldn't afford endless range balls either, but I made sure as hell to have plastic balls and I made a 9-hole course around my house. You could hit the plastic balls MAYBE 20 yds - those wiffle ball ones. My friend and i hand made our own score cards, tee markers, etc. We woke up saturdays, grabbed the push mower and mowed/edged so we felt like we were at Augusta (because you know Augusta has St. Augustine grass) :/ . We lowered the mower and mowed a green into the backyard too - with fringe. Gotta keep that area watered, fertilized and aerated too. If your ball hits any concrete - that's a water hazard. An you had to always replace your divots (but if you made any it was a bad shot).

Course record is -7

Once I was able to consistently hit plastic balls, going to the range didn't really seem like a waste of money. I also always offered to pick up the baskets in exchange for another bucket. Sometimes that worked.

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I think another thing that would help the game in the US is to play different kinds of games.

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Match Play would definitely speed things up. Last Match Play tourney I played I was amazed at how quickly it went (and no, it isn't because I lost 9 and 8...so let me beat you to that joke). I lost 3 and 1.

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Golf just didn't appeal to me when I was a young kid. I wanted to be running around the neighborhood playing football/baseball/basketball with my friends. Golf just seemed boring. Of course in hindsight I wish I would've started playing as soon as I could.

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I could have written this word for word. However, most start playing golf young due to someone -- usually their dad -- introducing them to the game. My dad never picked up a golf club, much less played a round. Ironically, he did seem to enjoy watching it sometimes (I would comment on it being boring).

Golf needs to become a regular part of the PE in jr. high and high school (if there is such a thing anymore???). You don't have to go to courses, but teach kids the swing in the cage then encourage them to come out for the HS golf team. Building cages and buying a bunch of putters, 5 and 7 irons, and a few fairway woods doesn't cost a great deal.

Guys that I knew in HS that played golf for the team took full advantage of driving from school to the course by making a beer run along the way. Don't ask me how I know that!

I think there are various hindrances to the game. I could definitely be wrong, but here is my take:

1) The game doesn't appear to be fun to outsiders or many young kids. Especially the PGA vs LPGA tour. Watching PGA players vs LPGA players makes the game seem forced and boring to the average viewer.

2) While profitability in the last couple of decades has exploded, I've wondered if it has choked some of the passion out of the game.

3) Poor and inconsistent instruction has hindered and frustrated many people trying to take up the game. The better you play, the more you want to play.

4) Instant gratification is now pretty much mandatory in our society, and this is the last game that will satisfy that.

5) Despite advances in technology, people have less time than they did in previous years (or manage it poorly). I haven't been around the game long enough, but this sometimes makes me wonder if there really is a pace of play problem, or is it an expectation that everything should happen immediately. That being said, I am mindful of not holding people up and letting faster groups play through. Its just simple consideration.

6) Also, golf technology advances have created a vicious cycle where courses have stretched out to accommodate distances, yet in general the impression I get is that more golfers are not scoring better anyway. So maintenance costs go up, yet individual performance hasn't.

7) The country club model is dying in many places. I enjoy going to my club greatly, but even those that still exist at the low or mid level range (not ultra exclusive ones), have difficulty attracting membership since most people don't see the value in spending money on it. Country clubs when operated effectively can be amazing assets to the community and a fixture of family life.

As a footnote, a number of the old guard in golf just appear to stuffy and silly. Im watching the Pebble broadcast, the commentators were talking about the current leader's shirt and whether they like it or not. It's just like the thread on Rickie's shoes a little while ago. I have never seen so many grown man have an opinion on another man's clothes until I started playing golf. So much of this commentary is about other sports, and things irrelevant to the broadcast. How many other sports do that during their events? I understand how golf has more lulls in action that other sports, but its just silly imo.

1. Boatload of other sports that kids are into, that are much cheaper and mainstream.
2. Still a stigma of being non-masculine to boys.
3. Golf is expensive. If one feels it's not, you're sitting in your own ivory tower.
4. It's very, very time consuming. I can remember playing 18 in 3-4 hours walking. Try that today.
5. The rub in golf is the ever constant of trying to get better, the challenge and patience golf requires.
6. Tiger was both great and bad for the game. Brought it mainstream, but the cost to the averave consumer increased as well.
7. Golf requires a tremendous amount of time to get to the next level of scoring. Kids today, want instant gratification and are not willing to work.

I'm sure there's more, but most have been covered.

I grew up on a muni, during summers I spent 8-10 hours everyday hitting balls, putting and playing by myself or a group of old retired farts at age 11-12. Today, being at a golf course alone all day could potentially, get a call from CPS.

Lack of and difficulty getting on to municipal golf courses. Houston has several and they are almost impossible to get a tee time to the ones maintained better. It is to expensive too.

I took up the sport in my 30s, but really want to introduce my very young kids to the game at some point soon because of reasons already mentioned.

The main challenge I see is that clubs/courses generally don't provide much in the way of a kid friendly (i.e. fun) learning environment that makes it fun/interesting for young kids to learn.

For example, what if clubs/courses had....

1) a very small portion of the practice area set up specifically for kids "games". For instance a single hole on the practice green with a "bulls eye" marked around it (and maybe an oversized hole). Or off to the side of the range, set up a small goal post for kids to hit a 20-30 yrd shot through (or other fun targets). Nothing hokey like a putt-putt course, but just a few things that you can make games out of that can make if fun. Ski resorts do this ...it's more fun to learn a wedge turn when you are "racing" around fun obstacles and high-fiving wooden characters on the way down rather than just learning how to turn down a wide open bunny slope.

2) a 2-3 hole kids course. Not a par 3 course. Actual kid-specific holes set up very short (50-80 yds) with no real hazards so kids could "tee-off" and work their way to a small green in a series of 2-3 chip type shots before putting (maybe even have the oversized bulls-eye holes). You could fit these in a pretty small footprint.

Those are just a couple off the top of my head. Anyone aware of any courses that have anything along these lines? Just curious given the topic. I haven't seen any personally.

The ski resort analogy is actually a very good one I think. They generally all have schools and/or learning areas dedicated specifically to kids. In my mind, that is how you promote full family involvement in a sport and get kids into it at a young age.

Woodbridge in Wylie has a mini kids course. I think it's a chipping and putting type arrangement with five or six holes. Definitely not just putt-putt.

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A relevant data point that I have never actually heard is when, did the current population golfers take up the game? What percentage took it up as a little kid versus as a teenager or as an adult?

This is obviously simply anecdotal, but I normally play golf with my buddy from Denver, my father-in-law, and a golf buddy who lives around here. All of us would currently qualify as "avid golfers" since we all play once a week or more on average.

• I got one lesson when I was younger and didn't really take to it. Started getting a little bit of interest when I was in college and didn't take it up with any kind of regularity until I was about 25.
• My buddy from Denver didn't swing a club until he was about 12 or 13. His dad got him one lesson and he didn't like it and didn't really play until college. Started playing regularly in his early 20s.
• My father-in-law didn't take up the game until he was 38 and now plays a couple rounds a week.
• Golf buddy who lives nearby didn't start playing until he was 30.

Based on my very limited observation, it is very common for people to pick up the game when they get older rather than as kids. Makes sense to me since golf requires a lot of patience and focus that most human beings don't develop until they get a little older.

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I think this is the key. Most of the people I know who play golf didn't start until they were in their 20s. I don't think a ton of kids have ever played...unless you start early and/or play in high school, you aren't going to start playing until college or after college. That's just the way it always has been and probably always will be. I started playing in about 5th grade and had a few friends to play with, but that was it. Almost no one I knew played. that changes once people are in college and are done with their high school sports. They then become interesting in finding a new hobby.

Bottom line, even if alot of kids aren't playing, golf will be fine because there will always be a new influx of 19-30 year olds who pick up the game.

Tennis is going through the same challenges here in the States as well. Now they have adopted different balls and courts for kids at different age levels to progress them to the standard rackets and balls that adults play with. Big time agree with more kid friendly areas.

It is a really hard game to get into. People hate playing behind slow people and it is hard to not be slow when first starting, no matter how much you're playing ready golf.

When I was a kid we'd play later afternoon at our country club, starting from 150 markets until I godly decent enough to play from the ladies tees.

Courses can have junior golf days, but it's expensive for public courses to give up time.

Adults I'm guessing is even tougher as less options to learn the game.

Par 3s and executive courses can be good places to start.

I would like to way in.
I have been playing tournament golf for 30+ years, from individual to 4 man scrambles. My Dad started me when I was 6 and started playing in Jr tournaments at age 9. We lived in a small town in here in Texas and there wasn't much else to do for kids (without having to go to the big city) so we played on out little 9 hole course.

Now, I'm 43, on active duty and still play tournament golf. I have 3 boys from 12 to 9 and all 3 play tournaments. My oldest has been playing tournaments for over 4 years and the twins start their first real tournament this year.

We have been members at clubs in Florida, Virginia and now in Texas. and I see a ton of kids playing. We are joining Lantana and one of the reason why was because of their youth program. Trophy Club was actually a little better but the value was at Lantana.

Also, with the emergence of the PDP's at all the smaller courses there has been a virtual explosion of young golfers. The NTJPGA fills up all there tournaments as well as U.S. Kids (which I don't recommend). At the last two clubs we were members at, Virginia and Florida, the club had a rule that kids were not allowed to play before 1400 without an adult, so that could be why you haven't see a lot kids out playing. My oldest would have football or soccer games Saturday mornings and then we would go out in the afternoon and play 18. Now he wants to play football in the fall and play tournament golf year round. My twins, just want to play tournament golf.

Equipment is an issue. Yes, there are bargain sets out there to get you started but in the long run won't last because they have a playability ceiling. Getting into the right set really makes all the difference. Have clubs that are fitted to your swing and your style of play makes a world of difference. Yes, having your clubs frequency matched, and having the heads at the proper lie angle will change your game. Now, I'm not saying you need to go out and buy Miura's or Yuyuri's but quality does make a huge difference in golf. Hey, just knowing if you like Forged vs. Cast is a start. Then don't even get me started about drivers, drivers are all about the shaft! Luckily now you can buy a head and have multiple shafts for different conditions.

Sorry for the soap box, if we want to grow the game. Play with your kids, your grandkids, your nieces and nephews, hell, play with the neighbor kids, just get a out and play.

1 last thing, If you have a son who plays, you need to play in the Father and Son Team Classic in Myrtle Beach. It is one the best tournaments I've ever played I, this will be the first year I play with my oldest son and not my Dad. Trust me it's a blast, we still talk to friends we made over 12 years ago!

One way to grow the game quickly is simply to make it faster. A round of Saturday golf at your average public course takes 5 hours. Add in travel to the course, 30 minutes to warm up, and travel home from the course, and all the sudden a round of golf is a full-day affair. If I had all the free time in the world, I'd be fine with that. Unfortunately for me, I don't. As it is, empty nesters with free weekends understandably make up a disproportionate market share of the game.

So, how do we make the game faster? For starters, I think the USGA should institute a campaign for either a double or triple bogey max for amateurs. On a par 4, if you miss your 5th or 6th shot, pick it up and move on. The handicap system already does this anyway. It just needs to become acceptable for the amateur player to do it routinely during a round. Tournament golf can continue to be played at whatever rules that tournament wants.

So, how do we make the game faster? For starters, I think the USGA should institute a campaign for either a double or triple bogey max for amateurs. On a par 4, if you miss your 5th or 6th shot, pick it up and move on. The handicap system already does this anyway. It just needs to become acceptable for the amateur player to do it routinely during a round. Tournament golf can continue to be played at whatever rules that tournament wants.

That's a good point. weekend rounds do have a tendency to take all day especially if you don't get of before 0900. A max score would be ideal, I've even played in some tournaments where that was in place. Now, getting the "blue hairs" to follow suit would be a task, then again so of the fastest players I've ever played with were Seniors. So much so they would hit into groups all day!

cost and time are the drivers for me. i have almost completely stopped playing dues to time. I took my 2 boys ages 13 and 11 out for 9 holes last Friday. A cart and 3 green fees was $75.00. instruction can also get expensive however, my 13 yo son is in a junior program on mon and wed for 1 hour after school. the cost is $150.00/month. too soon to give an opinion if it is worth the cost but it is a smaller group, dozen or so kids, pro, assistant pro and a high school player.
find ways to make it play faster, cost less and the game will be stable to growing. i liked this idea when i heard it - play only 12 holes and increase size of the cup by 50%.

First of all thanks for your service.

I guess my point was at my home club there are kids all over the property on weekends, but I don't see dad's playing with their kids. Like you I've got a 13 year old and we play as often as possible around his tournament schedule.

I bet the dads are out playing with their buddies or their parents are playing tennis.

You have to be a pretty decent golfer at age 10-14 to play with your dad and his buddies.

An that's a function of having played with your dad from a young age too don't you think?

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I bet the dads are out playing with their buddies or their parents are playing tennis.

You have to be a pretty decent golfer at age 10-14 to play with your dad and his buddies.

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Growing up my dad would play in the morning with his buddies. The whole family would go out late afternoon, sometimes just doing four or five holes.

Golf should not take more than four hours. Was able to go off first Monday. A foursome (my buddy and two singles). One single walked. Three of us mid 20s handicaps. We still finished less than four hours.

Caught the group scheduled to be first out but they let us. They were teeing off on 10 when we were on 15. Absolutely ridiculous.