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Appraisers Rant

6,452 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Cody 91
MoneyMikeOnline
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Not to bash appraisers, but they've forgotten what it's like to actually generate business. The service is gone and they are just sitting back raking in cash giving sub-par service. I hope this HVCC crap get's thrown in the track. Appraisers are the new brokers. Turn times are horrible and management companies are a joke. That is all. Sorry Aggie Appraiser, it's not about you, just needed to get some crap off my chest.
DallasAggie0
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What's HVCC ??
BigPuma
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didn't appraise did we?
p_bubel
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Heads up, it's only going to get worse. Heard that the average age of the typical appraiser is nearing 65 these days.


In my experience, the vast majority of the turn time problems are cheap ass AMCs shopping around the jobs at bargain basement rates for several weeks before getting reasonable. When it's nice and busy, I'm taking the good paying/low hassle clients.

Appraisers didn't write these stupid rules and probably hate them as much as you do.
p_bubel
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quote:
What's HVCC ??
Home valuation code of conduct

http://www.cnbc.com/id/30521887


It's since been "overhauled."
Which didn't change much, in my opinion.
aggie appraiser
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quote:
Not to bash appraisers, but they've forgotten what it's like to actually generate business. The service is gone and they are just sitting back raking in cash giving sub-par service. I hope this HVCC crap get's thrown in the track. Appraisers are the new brokers. Turn times are horrible and management companies are a joke. That is all. Sorry Aggie Appraiser, it's not about you, just needed to get some crap off my chest.

One of the problems is the appraiser is one person. There's just a limited amount of work that can be completed in a day. It's slowed down a little, but I was at a 10 day turn time and that was working about 8am-12am six days a week. I quit taking orders for about 4 days because it was just too much. I would tell the vendors that I was too backed up and they wanted me to keep taking the work. My regular clients were asking me to do rush orders for good money and I couldn't take them because of the workload. Nobody sits back and rakes in the cash in this business. You have to work and produce to make money.

It's not like a different business where you can grab a couple of people off the street to pour concrete or hammer nails. The appraiser has to personally perform the vast majority of the work. I admit the service is suffering, but that is due to the workload. It's crazy.
Deats99
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I like appraisers.
A good plan violently executed now is better than a perfect plan executed next week.
-George S Patton
HTownAg98
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I don't know how you residential guys do it. I'm so glad when I got into this profession that I picked a somewhat boutique-y field of appraisal.
p_bubel
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Honestly, other than dealing with the AMCs, I still very much enjoy the work. Everyday is a new experience, a new homeowner/home and a fresh start.

I need a proper vacation desperately though.
Shooter McGavin
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I have to admit, seeing the OP's comments got my dander up. I'd like to respond, knowing that I will probably come off sounding like an a-hole, and I'm sorry, not sorry.

First, if you are an L.O. dealing with appraisal management companies you need to either find a better AMC or change companies.

Imagine being the appraiser - would you want to work directly with lenders that are using a Mercury Network type platform that takes only $14 bucks, or would you still want to work for an AMC that wants to take a third or a half of your fee for doing nothing but hassling the appraiser? Easy question but I'll answer - almost all AMC's suck donkey balls and we hate them with every fiber of our being. It is an unnecessary layer of BS and they are money sucking jerks that care about nothing but the almighty dollar. You would not believe the horror stories of AMC's, but nobody cares but appraisers, so I'll spare you the tl/dr.

Second. As previously mentioned, we can't just run out and add appraisers. It takes years to become an appraiser now. Before the HVCC I had three offices with fifteen appraisers. I made twice what I do now. I do pretty well now, but I am far from "raking in the cash" as I have to physically inspect all properties and do all of the analysis. Granted I do have minions that do a lot of the secretarial stuff and data input, but I am still very limited in the number of files I can do per day.

Appraisers make a hell of a lot less than the L.O.s, yet they are always asking us to reduce the fee because they quoted without knowing enough about the property, or because someone made a mistake and didn't order a final or something. Also, the people that have the biggest and most valuable homes always seem to be the most fee sensitive, yet are the most capable of paying.

Appraisers run the risk of an L.O. doing a crappy job on the loan origination and approving a borrower that can't afford a home. If the loan goes bad, the first thing that Fannie or the lender does is pull out the appraisal and get a review. If they can find anything wrong in the report (it's busy now and we are cranking these out - betcha they are not all perfect reports) they will ask the lender to re-purchase unless the appraiser can rebut a slanted review. Even if you are successful in rebutting the report, they can and will file a complaint with the state on your license. Defending a report with the state investigator is no fun and expensive. It's easy to lose one of those cases, and trust me it is painful. Get a complaint from the state and many lenders will cross you off their list. If it is Chase, then every lender that brokers to Chase will cross you off as well. You might as well go out of business if your main focus is mortgage work.

I can assure you that I take damn good care of my clients with regard to service. I've done this long enough to know (32 years) that it is cyclical and that the time where we are hungry and needing work is just around the corner. Remember who is doing a good job for you today, and do business with them tomorrow.

Remember when it was slow? I do. I specifically remember how lenders treated us then. They lowered our fees and treated us like crap. They knew there were plenty of appraisers and that they could get away with being a-holes. The tables have turned and those guys that were a-holes to me don't even have a sniff of a chance of getting me to do their work now.

I'm sure I'll get some snarky responses from agents or mortgage folk, and the obligatory TL/DR but that's ok. I feel so much better.

Now where did I leave my rake?
jja79
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Honest question. How often do you have to defend your license, answer a complaint to the state over a report or deal with Freddie /Fannie ? Your post sounds as if it's pretty common for appraisers.
aggie appraiser
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quote:
Honest question. How often do you have to defend your license, answer a complaint to the state over a report or deal with Freddie /Fannie ? Your post sounds as if it's pretty common for appraisers.

I had quite a few instances of having to answer errors thrown up by the Collateral Underwriter program. Most of them dealt with comp selection. I had about 4 or 5 of them come up in a month and haven't had any in the last month or so.

I also received a letter from Fannie Mae complaining about some reports that didn't received time adjustments. The appraisals in question were from about 1.5 years ago. They stated they were going to keep looking at my reports and follow up as necessary. Great, since it has been over a year and my methodology has been the same. In this instance, I didn't have to really defend anything.

There's also some push back from realtors/lenders who submit different comparable sales they feel are pertinent.

And then there's the request for corrections which happen all the time, but are mainly errors or typos that need to be corrected. We receive lots of these, but they are normally for small mistakes or things that should have been addressed in the initial report.

Fortunately, I haven't had to deal with the state. I'm just a one man shop, so I'm sure McGavin has dealt with many more issues than me.

p_bubel
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I takes years to become an appraiser now.

3 to 4 years to get certified, and thousands of dollars in classes and fees. The norm was to have around 5 people in my trainee classes and those are only available in Dallas or Houston for the entirety of the state and at irregular intervals.

Very few clients will take on licensed appraisers. Then there's the silly college degree requirement now as well. Fees and turn times will go up till they figure out some sort of AVM, which judging by zillow and all that other junk, will still be a while.

You can't really ramp up the work force quickly. With the AMC fee split, lack of significant overall fee increase since the Reagan Administration and the liability/responsibility involved few certified appraisers have any incentive to take on a trainee anyway.

quote:
And then there's the request for corrections which happen all the time, but are mainly errors or typos that need to be corrected. We receive lots of these, but they are normally for small mistakes or things that should have been addressed in the initial report.
Oye, fighting with an AMC over St versus Rd for a property is a joy.

Having to explain to an underwriter in Ohio that there are no active oil/gas drilling wells in the condo complex or the .09 acre home site in the middle of town has no agricultural activity is the highlight of my busy day.

Anyway, nearly 2 AM, just finishing up for the day. Just sitting back and raking it in.
Shooter McGavin
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Remember I've done this a long time and had a big shop where I signed as a supervisory appraiser. When you sign as a supervisor, you are just as much on the hook as the rookie appraiser that went out. I've had three license complaints, one lawsuit and three re-purchase battles. I have also helped appraisers in my office deal with these same issues, too many to count.



mazag08
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The general public has no idea, but there is going to be a massive shortage of appraisers in the next 10 to 20 years. Between the ridiculous barriers to entry and the stagnate bid prices over the last 20 years, nobody is entering the profession. And those that are, like me, are realizing quickly that old guard aren't going to let us get to their level until they are dead.

The amount of work I do (commercial appraisal) for the amount of money I get in return is a travesty. I don't see how anyone could put the time and energy into getting certified and MAI in today's world. You could make double at a salary job and not have to worry about a profession that gladly states it doesn't want new people.
Shooter McGavin
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quote:
The general public has no idea, but there is going to be a massive shortage of appraisers in the next 10 to 20 years. Between the ridiculous barriers to entry and the stagnate bid prices over the last 20 years, nobody is entering the profession. And those that are, like me, are realizing quickly that old guard aren't going to let us get to their level until they are dead.

The amount of work I do (commercial appraisal) for the amount of money I get in return is a travesty. I don't see how anyone could put the time and energy into getting certified and MAI in today's world. You could make double at a salary job and not have to worry about a profession that gladly states it doesn't want new people.
I have two sons. Both of them recently graduated from A&M with business degrees and work for big companies with tons of benefits including matching 401k. Thank God above that I discouraged them constantly from getting into the appraisal business.

Appraisers not only have to battle to survive with all of the regulatory hassles and lawsuit threats, but they have no benefits - at all. No insurance, no 401k, no vacation, no sick days. You don't work, you don't get paid. My health insurance is $1,300 per month and probably about to go up another 20%.

Back in the day I thought I would be able to sell my practice and use some of that for retirement. My practice is probably not worth anything now that the business model has changed.


Shooter McGavin
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quote:


I also received a letter from Fannie Mae complaining about some reports that didn't received time adjustments. The appraisals in question were from about 1.5 years ago. They stated they were going to keep looking at my reports and follow up as necessary. Great, since it has been over a year and my methodology has been the same. In this instance, I didn't have to really defend anything.




Everyone in my shop got one of those, as well as just about every appraiser I know in the D-FW area.

Matsui
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How does one start in the appraisal business? And how much money would a rookie make the first 5 years on the job?
aggie appraiser
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quote:
quote:


I also received a letter from Fannie Mae complaining about some reports that didn't received time adjustments. The appraisals in question were from about 1.5 years ago. They stated they were going to keep looking at my reports and follow up as necessary. Great, since it has been over a year and my methodology has been the same. In this instance, I didn't have to really defend anything.




Everyone in my shop got one of those, as well as just about every appraiser I know in the D-FW area.



Do you have any idea what their trigger is for needs/doesn't need time adjustments? Are you changing the way you do business due to the letters?
mazag08
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quote:
How does one start in the appraisal business? And how much money would a rookie make the first 5 years on the job?


You have to find an appraiser willing to sponsor you, and most won't as they have to personally inspect anything you work on. But if you find one, you then have to apply for and obtain a trainees license. You then will put in two or so years of long hours and very little pay, while most likely not doing anything outside of grunt work.

On the commercial side, it can take 5 years or longer to get your MAI.

It's not the lucrative business it used to be. The truly only way to really make it big is to work your ass off for a long time, open up your own company, hire a bunch of appraisers, and take 60 of each bid that they get.

It can still be a decent career, but like mentioned before, the ridiculous barriers to entry and the complete lack of care that it's an aging industry with no solutions towards the future make it a very tough sell to people wanting to get in. Most commercial guys I know could make more money in a lot of other places.
DallasAggie0
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How does one start in the appraisal business? And how much money would a rookie make the first 5 years on the job?
My first year I made 38k with no benefits. 2nd year bout 65 - 70 k no benefits. This year and next about 80k with benefits.

Side note, work as an appraiser for a few years and you'll be an attractive candidate for development, brokerage, and PE firms if you have the education.
Shooter McGavin
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quote:
quote:
quote:


I also received a letter from Fannie Mae complaining about some reports that didn't received time adjustments. The appraisals in question were from about 1.5 years ago. They stated they were going to keep looking at my reports and follow up as necessary. Great, since it has been over a year and my methodology has been the same. In this instance, I didn't have to really defend anything.




Everyone in my shop got one of those, as well as just about every appraiser I know in the D-FW area.



Do you have any idea what their trigger is for needs/doesn't need time adjustments? Are you changing the way you do business due to the letters?
Not really. I belong to a small group of senior type appraisers that are fairly politically active. One of those guys wrote a really well thought out, but scathing letter to Fannie about their letters. Really let'em have it.

I don't think the letters mean much, I read that they are looking more for the egregious mistakes. Mainly, switching Q and C ratings back and forth and unreasonably low or high adjustments.

I'm sure they will start really wearing us out when the market goes south. They will use those letters and ratings to jam us up when the properties we appraised go into foreclosure. It's the end game they are setting up.
Rice and Fries
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I am 8 months into working for a commercial appraiser. I can't wait to leave this job for one of the aforementioned ones above.

Honestly, commercial appraising is complete BS. The JP Morgans and AIG/institutional clients give us $4-6K for one property appraisal. I don't see a dime of that as a salaried employee. I have to deal with mostly grumpy asset managers who don't give you all the required data after you repeatedly ask for it. Some are nice to work with but most are ego-tisitcal *****s.

I am not even going to bother going for my trainee license because it's just wasted effort. The field isn't anything what people make it out to be. You can work your ass off as a salaried employee, dealing with awful child like asset managers OR you can work for a boutique shop, get some commission but also work your ass off and have them keep you from pursuing your MAI cause it just means a headache for them.

For the record, this is all for commercial appraising.
p_bubel
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quote:
How does one start in the appraisal business? And how much money would a rookie make the first 5 years on the job?
Mine was a little different than Dallas'. Finding a residential sponsor for me was really difficult, it took me around 2 years to find one. This was back in 2011. Found work at one of the bigger firms. I made 33% of the overall fee, but they found me work and did/do the scheduling. First year was around 30K, second was better and the last full year of my trainee-ship was at 50K. It was real financial kick in the teeth but I liked my job.

There's still money to be made, pretty decent money, but it's in an established one man shop. My two friends that do this on their own do really well.

I used to be an Architect in Dallas many moons ago and I really wish I had done this right out of college.


It's a fun gig. I'm not stuck in an office all day. I get to see and meet some cool people and houses. I know the market better than most people in town. I work when I want from where I want and have a flexibility to my day that is pretty great even though the hours are long.

I've also been threatened, yelled at, chased down a street and had a gun pulled on me. My sponsor has had one complaint in the past 4 years (from his other trainee) that he had to defend before the board. Something piddly that I don't quite remember now.
DallasAggie0
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quote:
I am 8 months into working for a commercial appraiser. I can't wait to leave this job for one of the aforementioned ones above.

Honestly, commercial appraising is complete BS. The JP Morgans and AIG/institutional clients give us $4-6K for one property appraisal. I don't see a dime of that as a salaried employee. I have to deal with mostly grumpy asset managers who don't give you all the required data after you repeatedly ask for it. Some are nice to work with but most are ego-tisitcal *****s.

I am not even going to bother going for my trainee license because it's just wasted effort. The field isn't anything what people make it out to be. You can work your ass off as a salaried employee, dealing with awful child like asset managers OR you can work for a boutique shop, get some commission but also work your ass off and have them keep you from pursuing your MAI cause it just means a headache for them.

For the record, this is all for commercial appraising.

I dunno exactly what people "make it out to be" but I didn't go into it with any expectation of a glamorous job. I've generally enjoyed my time in commercial. I'm now in a specialized field and do work all over the country so I get flown all over the place. Baller yo.

Besides, getting an MAI will be a really big thing to have in about 10 years or so and put yourself in extremely high demand.
MoneyMikeOnline
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No it will, it'll just take 3 weeks to get it. sucks
mazag08
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quote:
Besides, getting an MAI will be a really big thing to have in about 10 years or so and put yourself in extremely high demand.
This is true, but it's extremely painful thinking about when the point will come where commercial appraisers are in high demand again and banks stop giving bids to the lowballers. The stuff my company does (industrial complexes, bulk lot purchases by builders, small to mid size office buildings, neighborhood strip centers) are usually bid at about $2,000. With the complex analysis you have to perform, not to mention the detailed market analysis and highest and best use analysis (seriously.. it's not easy to determine that a $3mil industrial building client's best bet is sell to a developer to teardown and build townhomes), you are getting WAY underpaid for what you are doing.

MoneyMikeOnline
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I've got one planned. I'll miss the Aggies in Dallas this year, but I've seen that game quite a bit. Have to catch it on TV.
MoneyMikeOnline
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You sound like a straight up guy. Not ragging on all appraisers, and you're probably right. I'm sure it's the AMC at the end of the day. I just miss the days of calling up my guy and saying hey I've an order and he just makes it happen. I hate the fact that I can't talk to them and have to go through some 3rd party who's probably not doing what they are telling me they are doing.

I do business all over the state so it's really bad. Midland... Forget about it.

Rush fee's are the new norm. However I tell my clients the appraisal costs what it costs. Can't go back to the appraiser for that. HVCC created this mgmt company bs and it's been the biggest crock of crap. It sucks that you guys have to take less money. My commissions were hit in 2010 as well. Now I can't make more even if I could sell a higher rate to make my "Bentley" payment at the end of the month. (No I don't have a Bentley)

At the end of the day a bunch of people who aren't in the industry made this mess up and it's completely created a bigger problem. TRID.. Oh my, did they think that was better? No Hate against appraisers here. I guess I should have said the process is what I hate more. Carry On!
SteveBott
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good thread. For those laymen out there not sure of some of us in the industry here is some background. When I got in mortgage in 2002 the loan originator chose his appraiser. We got most appraisers on word of mouth from others LO's or realtors. The problem was, as it always, a percentage of LO's abused this and were constantly harassing Appraisers about value. I remember my boss would absolutely go ape sheet crazy on an appraiser if he did not get the numbers he needed. My deal was if the value was in doubt, get a "look up" value. That is have the appraiser give me a range of high and low before he went on inspection and if the deal was going to die just just charge me a small fee for his time.

Well as you can imagine the appraisers hated this pressure and, sorry appraisers on the thread, their associations put a full court press to change this relationship. Well sometimes you get want you want it aint what you thought it would be. So HVCC was passed that prevented any interested party to not be able to contact the appraiser with a few exceptions such as report updated, administrative matters etc. But to be safe a LO or realtor should not contact them, especially about value.

Out of the HVCC the Appraisal Mgmt. Co. (AMC) was created. They are third party companies that are middle men. Low and behold, to get business they had to hold pricing in check and became blood sucking pain in the butts for appraisers. Cutting into their fees instead of charging more. Obviously the appraisers were/are not happy. Lenders are not happy. Clients are not happy. But it is our current system. Add all the other stuff in the thread from appraisers and you can see we are in a cluster fook that is hard to solve.
Shooter McGavin
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quote:
You sound like a straight up guy. Not ragging on all appraisers, and you're probably right. I'm sure it's the AMC at the end of the day. I just miss the days of calling up my guy and saying hey I've an order and he just makes it happen. I hate the fact that I can't talk to them and have to go through some 3rd party who's probably not doing what they are telling me they are doing.

I do business all over the state so it's really bad. Midland... Forget about it.

Rush fee's are the new norm. However I tell my clients the appraisal costs what it costs. Can't go back to the appraiser for that. HVCC created this mgmt company bs and it's been the biggest crock of crap. It sucks that you guys have to take less money. My commissions were hit in 2010 as well. Now I can't make more even if I could sell a higher rate to make my "Bentley" payment at the end of the month. (No I don't have a Bentley)

At the end of the day a bunch of people who aren't in the industry made this mess up and it's completely created a bigger problem. TRID.. Oh my, did they think that was better? No Hate against appraisers here. I guess I should have said the process is what I hate more. Carry On!
I'm a DFW guy and we are booked through the end of the month, so I feel your pain. The rural appraisers? Those guys can really lay the wood on you for time and fees - there is no alternative.

I feel your pain and hope I didn't come across too bad. I'm getting to be a bitter old guy about this stuff.

There good news for appraisers - just so I can quit being so negative - is that we can schedule our work instead of just taking work at random. Before we would take any and all work and figure out how to get it done. You never knew when you were going to be slammed or when you could take time off because it was going to be slow.

Nowadays if I want to take a day off, I just mark it off of the calendar and I don't take any work due on those days. If you take a week off, which is very rare, you have to work your way out of town, but still monitor revisions and accept work for the week you get back. It's tough to get away from this business - but at least now we can schedule things.

Also, we can decline to do work that is really far away, people understand that we can't be driving really far to do a file when we have a stack of work right close to the office/home. I don't avoid the difficult files either, I just charge and get a fair fee now as opposed to just taking them and getting hosed.

If you ever get some work in the SE Denton County/NE Tarrant area, i can help you, as long as you can wait for it.
LostInLA07
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Appraisal on the house we are selling (buyer offered 3 days after we listed it) came in $43k low. His #1 comp was a house that wasn't updated and he included a picture of a completely different house than the comp. Also, said our updated 750sf garage apartment was equivalent in value to a pool. Anyone ever heard of that comparison?
jja79
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In May I closed a loan on a new construction 4,800 SF house in Traditions. Comp 1 was a condominium, comp 1 was a 20 year old house south of College Station. You can submit additional, better comps but the decision rests with the appraiser who completed the original report. That doesn't seem accountable for quality of work to me.
mazag08
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quote:
In May I closed a loan on a new construction 4,800 SF house in Traditions. Comp 1 was a condominium, comp 1 was a 20 year old house south of College Station. You can submit additional, better comps but the decision rests with the appraiser who completed the original report. That doesn't seem accountable for quality of work to me.
That's ridiculous. did the appraiser bring his kid to work and not watch him?
p_bubel
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quote:
In May I closed a loan on a new construction 4,800 SF house in Traditions. Comp 1 was a condominium, comp 1 was a 20 year old house south of College Station. You can submit additional, better comps but the decision rests with the appraiser who completed the original report. That doesn't seem accountable for quality of work to me.
Did you report him? Seems like a slam dunk.
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