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New product, need to get Class 1 Div 2 certification

2,433 Views | 22 Replies | Last: 1 mo ago by bagger05
Bag
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AG
Hello,

My company has recently designed a product that works on offshore oil and gas platforms that has become pretty popular.

One thing holding the product back is getting a proper hazard rating for the kits. Does anyone have any experience on how to build or get a proper hazard certification.

tia
Win At Life
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AG
There are UL certifications that confirm the Class and Division. I believe you would have to get plugged in with the proper UL certification. Now, technically it isn't required to be UL, as any Osha listed NRTL is acceptable. Also, if you intend any installations outside US waters, you probably need an international certification for Zones as well. But maybe cross that bridge when you come to it. My understanding is it's a real PITA, which is to say time consuming and expensive.
Win At Life
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AG
Also makes a difference if the offshore facility has legs fixed to the seafloor or is a floating facility. Floating facilities usually also require US Coast Guard approval, which basically means ABS approval. Whole nuther ballgame there.
AgShaun00
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AG
my understanding of UL and testing, this is very expensive and very long process
bagger05
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I've done this a couple times.

What is the product?
Bag
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bagger05 said:

I've done this a couple times.

What is the product?
it is a solar powered sensor kit, initially for AIS, but also moving into ADSB and Wind / Wave. It works over LTE and bolts to a 2in handrail.

It is the size of a shoebox. Currently we use a pelican case.
bagger05
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AG
Some others have hit on the basics. In my experience you're going to be dealing with two groups of people. The product standard people and the hazardous location people.

The product standard is just a document that describes all the boxes you have to check in order to have your product listed. The product standard for a toilet would say it has to support a certain amount of weight, flush a certain volume of solid/liquid waste, must be made of a non-corrosive material, must have the volume rating printed on the back in contrasting letters, etc. etc.

It will also specify a bunch of tests that your product will have to be subjected to. In your case it probably will have to undergo a rain test where they put it under a shower and make sure it still works and doesn't electrocute anyone. There might be a shake test where they put it on a vibrating table and make sure it doesn't break apart.

====================

Once you have a product that's designed to a standard, you'll have to deal with the hazardous location people. They're responsible for making sure that your product meets design standards for the protection method (explosion-proof, intrinsically safe, dust-proof, etc) and location (Class I Div 1, Class II Div 2, etc) you're getting it listed for.

There are standards that describe the requirements and tests for hazardous locations similar to the product standards.

Getting your product certified for international standards at the same time as US standards doesn't add a lot of complexity to the process.

====================

The basic process is that once you have a product standard, you submit drawings and other documentation (like your manufacturing and QC processes) to the product standard people. They review it on paper and tell you whether it meets the standard or not. If it does, you can submit actual product that they will test (or they come to you on site, depending on what it is).

Same thing happens with the hazardous location people.

====================

Once everything is approved, you can label your product with the agency logo with the product standard and hazardous location rating.

Then for as long as you're selling it as a certified product, someone from the agency comes by and audits your facility once, twice, or four times a year depending on what the certification is.

====================

Time and money to get this done depend on a lot of factors. Time factor is mostly dependent on how backed up the agency is and whether you have someone that can be johnny on the spot with drawings and documents when they tell you to change something.

There are consultants that can help you navigate all this and will probably speed things along. A big part of the help they can offer is identifying what product standard your product will fit into. I'm also convinced that they get to cut in line ahead of people who are doing things on their own.

Ongoing costs I think are about $20k per year for our product. This is just the cost of maintaining your certification. Don't know if that varies from one standard to another.

Gut feeling is that you're probably looking at 6-12 months and $50k-$100k for the initial listing.

====================

These companies are gigantic bureaucracies and I've never had much fun dealing with them. Just accept that before you go into this. If your product is industrial I'd go with UL.
CivilEng08
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If you're just putting your hardware in a case, why don't you buy an intrinsically safe enclosure from someone like R Stahl and move on. You should be able to run any cables through appropriate glands.
Bag
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CivilEng08 said:

If you're just putting your hardware in a case, why don't you buy an intrinsically safe enclosure from someone like R Stahl and move on. You should be able to run any cables through appropriate glands.


That sounds like an option for sure, do I need to worry about the antenna or the panel at that point? Or is it just the enclosure that houses the battery and the electronics?
Win At Life
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AG
CivilEng08 said:

If you're just putting your hardware in a case, why don't you buy an intrinsically safe enclosure from someone like R Stahl and move on. You should be able to run any cables through appropriate glands.


Yeah but his wire bending space is too small. You disagree? You don't know? I don't know either. That's why putting a bunch of relays in a UL 50 box does not make it a UL 508 control panel. There's a good chance the whole unit will require UL 698. They check for crap like proper wire bending space. Which requires passing UL 508 first BTW. Then they'll check to make sure nothing gets too hot to cause an explosion. How hot would that be? That's what the T rating is for, so they test for that and apply the appropriate T rating for the listing. But you crap doesn't get very hot? Prove it with the proper UL tests.
bagger05
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AG
Not knowing enough about what they're doing it's hard to say, but if all the components are listed you could maybe get a UL panel shop to make it and have it certified that way.

Definitely worth exploring.
Win At Life
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Agreed. The easiest path is likely to pay a UL panel shop. I'm not sure if there are one's that also get ABS certification. Probably are. Just have to look around.
Dr. Doctor
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Bag said:

CivilEng08 said:

If you're just putting your hardware in a case, why don't you buy an intrinsically safe enclosure from someone like R Stahl and move on. You should be able to run any cables through appropriate glands.


That sounds like an option for sure, do I need to worry about the antenna or the panel at that point? Or is it just the enclosure that houses the battery and the electronics?
The antenna is usually the 'hard' part to get certified, since that's the energy output of your device. If you are going for intrinsically safe, you have to prove that nothing will be set off by power emissions from your device.

In my past life, dealing with explosives is the hard part; you can't have more than like 2 mW of power emitting from something or some explosives (blasting caps) can be set off. That's why you have to do a radio sweep of a rig if you use explosives; a motorola walkie talkie emits way more power and could technically set off the explosives.

Don't know your power rating or power emissions, but that's another hurdle to look into. From experience, the testing is usually put your device in a box and measure what comes out of it during normal operations. This might require you to put a cage around the device to prevent leakage as well. Something to consider for different models and the appropriate costs to go with it.

~egon
Bag
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AG
Dr. Doctor said:

Bag said:

CivilEng08 said:

If you're just putting your hardware in a case, why don't you buy an intrinsically safe enclosure from someone like R Stahl and move on. You should be able to run any cables through appropriate glands.


That sounds like an option for sure, do I need to worry about the antenna or the panel at that point? Or is it just the enclosure that houses the battery and the electronics?
The antenna is usually the 'hard' part to get certified, since that's the energy output of your device. If you are going for intrinsically safe, you have to prove that nothing will be set off by power emissions from your device.

In my past life, dealing with explosives is the hard part; you can't have more than like 2 mW of power emitting from something or some explosives (blasting caps) can be set off. That's why you have to do a radio sweep of a rig if you use explosives; a motorola walkie talkie emits way more power and could technically set off the explosives.

Don't know your power rating or power emissions, but that's another hurdle to look into. From experience, the testing is usually put your device in a box and measure what comes out of it during normal operations. This might require you to put a cage around the device to prevent leakage as well. Something to consider for different models and the appropriate costs to go with it.

~egon
thanks
Ron Murkundy
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Bag said:

Hello,

My company has recently designed a product that works on offshore oil and gas platforms that has become pretty popular.

One thing holding the product back is getting a proper hazard rating for the kits. Does anyone have any experience on how to build or get a proper hazard certification.

tia
Has the product been designed for use in hazardous locations and is only lacking the certification?

What is the desired hazardous location rating? Class I, Div 2? Class I, Div 1?

There are several different ways of achieving hazardous location ratings. You should educate yourself on them and determine which is most practical for you application and desired hazardous location rating. You cannot buy an intrinsically safe enclosure - intrinsically safe refers to a design of electrical circuits that limits the energy available such that a ignition of the hazardous material is not possible. You can, however, buy an explosion-proof enclosure and install your components in it.

Explosion-proof enclosures are much more unwieldy than a pelican case, but are an otherwise simple solution. Could the antenna be installed remotely (outside the hazardous area)?

There are a lot of people recommending UL, rightfully with disclaimers. I would only consider UL if the market(s) or customer(s) you are looking at will pay more for your product to offset the added cost and headache of dealing with UL.

If you happen to be in the Houston area, I would be happy to discuss further.
bagger05
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AG
Quote:

There are a lot of people recommending UL, rightfully with disclaimers. I would only consider UL if the market(s) or customer(s) you are looking at will pay more for your product to offset the added cost and headache of dealing with UL.
Curious to know what you'd suggest as an alternative to UL.
Ron Murkundy
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If UL is the only acceptable NRTL, then there is no other option. If the application and customer do not require it, then you've got options. I've seen people assuming regulatory requirements, but unless I've missed it, the OP has not confirmed any.
bagger05
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AG
I meant what other NRTL would you suggest? Wasn't aware of any options that aren't a total nightmare.
Ron Murkundy
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Historically, for NRTLs in general, I've had better experiences and pricing from CSA and Intertek.

That being said, their business models are all similar to UL. I'm jaded enough to believe they are all a shakedown that rarely add the value they are supposed to and will often find issues that are more to justify their own existence than to improve the product.
bagger05
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I've never worked directly with UL but your comments make me want to avoid it if I can.

I LOATHE CSA. In addition to being a gigantic bureaucracy they're also Canadian which seems to make it worse. Just a total beating. The idea that UL could be a bigger headache than them is kinda scary.

I've worked with Intertek a little bit and wasn't super impressed.

I do like FM -- they seem to be a lot smaller than the others I've dealt with. There are some limitations that come with that but I've had better luck finding actual human beings to work with.
aggiez03
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I build automation systems for a living and deal with Class 1 Div 2 on a regular basis.

Ron Murkunday is correct that you cannot just buy an 'intrinsically safe' enclosure and install everything in it.

Intrinsically safe means that a device has been tested to insure there is not enough energy to arc or spark to cause an explosion. So by definition, an enclosure cannot be IS.

Here are your options:

1) Get a NRTL to certify your entire device to Class 1 Div 2. I have a friend that did this with their pump controller through Intertek and it was about 1 year and $30K. You make any change, another $2,500 per change.

2) Purge the enclosure using a certified Class 1 Div 2 Purge with either instrument air or nitrogen.

3) Put everything in a Nema 7 Class 1 Div 1 enclosure that will exceed the requirement to meet Class 1 Div 2.
You will need to put a certified barrier on your antenna connections and proper seals / cable glands on all enclosure penetrations.

4) Make sure everything in your enclosure is rated to Class 1 Division 2 and self-certify
(This is an option if you can verify you meet the spec, wire and protect it properly, and the customer does not require 3rd party certification)

Like I mentioned previously, I build these type systems regularly and use Option #2, #3, & #4 all the time.


From my experience, I would say MOST companies buying control panels do NOT require 3rd party certification. That includes customers such as refineries, pipeline operators, cryogenics, Blue Origin, Space X, Cameron, various off shore drillers, downhole pad sites,

The only time we get requests for UL508A (which is not what you need, but a common 3rd party certification for my industry ) are jobs in California, Waste Water in big cities, and Canada (CSA or CUL).

I am also in the Houston area (north side) and can help or post/ PM if you have other questions.
Bag
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AG
thanks again for all the great advice on here.

not sure I ever said thanks.

We are getting closer to this journey, but honestly the price is the biggest barrier of entry

Our kits are simply designed to pick up boat and aircraft movements. Primarily for the offshore industry. It is a funny dance, the mid majors have no problem putting our current kits out in a simple pelican case. They just put them on the part of the platform that does not require that level of certification. However, the majors and super majors are not interested, and I understand they are very risk averse. But what is funny is that have smoking sections on the platform lol.
bagger05
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Once you understand that the goal is COMPLIANCE (not safety) then all of this starts to make a lot more sense.
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