So does the Olympics Track-and-Field "dive" issue finally debunk

3,364 Views | 21 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by AggieEP
mhayden
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the "it's never better to dive into first base instead of running through the bag" inaccuracy?

Seems like the common supporting evidence for that by little-league and high school coaches nationwide was always "if it was faster then you'd see Olympic track athletes do it".

That, and a really poorly done "Sports Science" episode.


It's faster to run through the bag most of the time, but in certain situations a dive is absolutely faster.
BMX Bandit
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It really doesn't disprove anything.

In track, you don't have to touch a bag on the ground. You just have to break a plane. I'm not taking a side, just pointing out the "end" goal is different so one can't prove or disprove the other


(And she fell, didn't dive)
W
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AG
Jeff Kent agrees
mhayden
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I agree the two things are different, was more pointing out that was the example that seemed to always be used (Olympic track athletes).

But saying it doesn't disprove anything -- I think it's a very good example of why those who say "running through the bag is always better" are incorrect.

Like most things with sports, it's situational.
MSFC Aggie
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AG
Wasn't the "diving" girl slightly ahead of the other one anyway?
TheAngelFlight
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quote:
But saying it doesn't disprove anything -- I think it's a very good example of why those who say "running through the bag is always better" are incorrect.
The bag is on the ground, and its that extra distance to be traveled to get your hands to the ground that is thought to cost you time when you dive, along with a second possibly time-coster noted below. .

Your feet are already at that ground level plane or very near that ground that level plane and thus extending your foot forward means you have less distance to travel, and your feet can be extended well in front of your body, anyways.

In track, you lean forward because you have to get your torso across what is a vertical plane to infinity and leaning your torso forward puts your torso further up the track and toward that vertical plane.

This concept of distance traveled is why you are taught to slide into any other base and/or away from a would be tag with a glove. It requires the defender to make their glove with the ball travel a longer distance. (And yes, a slide also makes it easier to not go past the base and be tagged out.)


Besides, we're not positive Shaunae Miller (and the Brazilian who "dove" earlier in the day) actually made their torso reach the line earlier than if they had a more traditional standing finish.

When you dive, you are no longer pushing off the ground with your feet which is what accelerates and keeps you moving forward.

A lot of things lined up just perfectly for Shaunae Miller. I would still teach baseball players to not dive into first base.
mhayden
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quote:
A lot of things lined up just perfectly for Shaunae Miller. I would still teach baseball players to not dive into first base.

Nor would I, as the majority of the time you will get there faster running.

But any time you see it you almost always hear a commentator, spectator or otherwise comment that "it's actually slower to do that", and that is not necessarily the case. In a vacuum with a perfect stride the entire 90 feet from home to first, yes. But very few players are consistent in their stride from home to first (due in large to the various outcomes from swinging the bat), so there absolutely are times when the runner's proximity to the base combined with where they are with their stride (not to mention where up/down the line the throw might be) create situations where diving gets you there with a higher success rate.
TheAngelFlight
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I think its less about stride length and more about lowering your hands 4 or 5 or more feet to the ground.

And also, if you're losing all contact with the ground of your feet, if you give up any push offs with your foot, you've given up your source of speed and acceleration, while at the same time, if you touch the ground with your hands/arms/body before you touch the bag, you've introduced pretty significant friction. Even if you've shortened your last stride or two to touch the base, you've kept your source of acceleration which is your feet pushing off the ground and avoided that introduction of friction.

The track lean is a way to get your torso forward without giving up immediate forward speed or making yourself travel further. It wouldn't really work the same way going to first base, so I don't think it shows us anything about baseball.
.
PacifistAg
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AG
Yeah, the only way I can see a slide into first being advantageous is if it is to avoid a tag on an errant throw that pulls the 1B off the bag.
KT 90
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AG
quote:
Yeah, the only way I can see a slide into first being advantageous is if it is to avoid a tag on an errant throw that pulls the 1B off the bag.

Winner.

TheAngelFlight
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To be super literal, baseball coaches should not say "you don't see Olympians doing it", but it doesn't mean the idea behind it is wrong. (Then again, many track dives were really falls.)

The track world itself is less than convinced Miller's "dive" helped her, so the premise here is somewhat thin to begin with.

94chem
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I was a very good baserunner. When you are going down the line, you get a feel for where your stride will hit the bag. If you have to chop a few steps to get there, it may be better to dive. If you simply lack the ability to determine this outcome, or are clumbsy and might hurt yourself, then by all means don't dive. But to say that running upright gets you there faster every time is just flat wrong. It's like the government telling us that saturated fat is bad. It's a general truth, not an ironclad rule.

Another one that bothers me is runners from first always sliding feet first at second on a close fielder's choice. A good baserunner ought to go head first on that play.
94chem
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I will also add that it's usually possible to pace the stride instinctively well before reaching the bag, but every once in a while something gets off kilter, and the dive is better.
double aught
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AG

quote:
This concept of distance traveled is why you are taught to slide into any other base and/or away from a would be tag with a glove. It requires the defender to make their glove with the ball travel a longer distance. (And yes, a slide also makes it easier to not go past the base and be tagged out.)

I would think 99% of the reason for sliding would be so that you don't come off the base.
TheAngelFlight
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quote:

quote:
This concept of distance traveled is why you are taught to slide into any other base and/or away from a would be tag with a glove. It requires the defender to make their glove with the ball travel a longer distance. (And yes, a slide also makes it easier to not go past the base and be tagged out.)

I would think 99% of the reason for sliding would be so that you don't come off the base.
That plays a part like I said.

I guess think of this way to visualize the huge importance of distance. Where did you try to throw the ball back in the day when you were trying to nail a base-runner? What trend did you and do you see now with throw location and the chances of tagging a guy out?

Those that limit the distance traveled have the best success. The time it takes to make some of the shortest, best swipes are about the time that separated Miller and Felix the other night on the track. Distance is huge, especially when going starting from zero as most fielders have to do when making a tag.
TheAngelFlight
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quote:
I was a very good baserunner. When you are going down the line, you get a feel for where your stride will hit the bag. If you have to chop a few steps to get there, it may be better to dive. If you simply lack the ability to determine this outcome, or are clumbsy and might hurt yourself, then by all means don't dive. But to say that running upright gets you there faster every time is just flat wrong. It's like the government telling us that saturated fat is bad. It's a general truth, not an ironclad rule.

Another one that bothers me is runners from first always sliding feet first at second on a close fielder's choice. A good baserunner ought to go head first on that play.
(If you can't shorten a stride to get into the bound, maybe a half chop on the back leg to get yourself into a bigger "chop" on the front leg into the bag, that's my thought on that matter of very good baserunning. You can't run the bases with triple jump step-count accuracy but you can limit your deceleration while giving yourself a chance to touch the bag.)


Still, I think the physics wouldn't be squarely on the side that the chop is worse than a dive. Both add time. Its a matter of how much. I would venture to say sometimes, often, it is more worthwhile to touch further down the bag than anything, even the chop. It might not be quicker to dive to touch the front of the bag than it is to just let your stride take you further up the bag.
Dock
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quote:
Wasn't the "diving" girl slightly ahead of the other one anyway?


Yes. And she was already stumbling/falling.

She didn't have much of a choice
CampingAg
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AG
One strategy about diving into first is that it somewhat throws off the umpire. Obviously there's replay in the upper levels of baseball, though.
94chem
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1st base umpire is in an impossible position on bang bang plays. He has to hear one thing while looking at another. A short-hop, a dive, a juggled catch all mess that up. And none of that considers the first baseman cheating off the bag. Should have had replay as soon as HD was available.
Represent830
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AG
I always told not to slide for safety reasons, not speed reasons.
The Lost
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The conveyor belt is moot.
LeFraud
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What does fangraphs say?
AggieEP
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The safety issue is key here as its the only one of the three bases you can slide through and past so it's a huge injury risk to slide in and touch the base without dislocating a shoulder or finger since people begin their slide so much later to reduce the deceleration caused by friction with the ground.

As far as speed, I'd have to running like a goober for my steps to be so out of sync that I couldn't take either a longer or shorter stride when approaching the bag while still maintaining speed. It probably happens once per 1000 times to first where a dive could be better because your dumb ass self is about to take short choppy steps.

The dive just isn't a good method at first. Sliding in modern baseball is about avoiding tags or making sure that you can quickly decelerate and stay on the bag. Neither situation is likely to occur at first.
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