Bond Recommendations

8,997 Views | 50 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by CSTX-Socol
Rooster14
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What are y'all's thoughts on the recommendation list? I agree that PD needs some new digs. And FD is behind on stations needed for the correct coverage. They might as well throw station 8 in the recommended election as well.

1. Construction of a new police station ($28 million)
2. UPRR grade crossings and roadway improvements ($18 million )
3. Construction of Fire Station No. 7 ($4.9 million)
4. Greens Prairie Road intersection and roadway improvements ($21.1 million)
5. Greens Prairie & Royder roadway safety improvements ($14.9 million)
6. System-wide park improvements ($2,545,000)
7. Neighborhood street safety improvements at Holick, Park Place, Anna and Glade ($2 million)
8. Community center ($15,555,000)
9. Traffic signals ($1.5 million)
10. Sidewalks/oversized participation funds ($750,000)
11. FM 2818 capacity improvement ($2 million)
12. Southeast Community Park development ($20 million)
13. Rock Prairie Road East widening (SH6 to Medical Way) ($1.9 million)
14. Spray park ($500,000)
15. Holleman Drive South widening ($11.5 million)
16. Trails ($6.1 million)
17. Skate park ($900,000
18. Natatorium ($30 million)
BlazeHarper
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Would cross off PD and Natatorium. I have seen nothing that leads me to believe this city wants to provide a place to lap swim for the people who live here. Even with the existing pools available I see no commitment to year round swimming. If they wanted to do this they could at least run Rock Prairie for lap swimming before and after the summer season. Bryan is committed to running a pool to lap swim in.





Rooster14
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Why would you cross off PD?
BlazeHarper
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Toured the facility and thought it was a nice and entirely functional place however that is my own ignorant estimation not quantified with analysis beyond "whoa this is nice".
Clo004
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With the PD supposed to be growing by almost 30% in the next ten years do you think the current building is still sufficient for that growth?
Sprite09
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AG
Looks like a fine list to me. I actually think a natatorium would be a good thing for the community, as long as the water was kept cool for lap swimming. And we sooo need more traffic sigals. Especially at graham and Victoria. Mornings there can be chaotic.
cslifer
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I agree about needing a new PD building. While the building is fairly nice and well maintained it is way too small. If I recall when it was built there was less than 100 officers, now there is over 200 and growing. It is busting at the seams. If you drive by there at shift change you can see that. So far as the price goes that seems a bit high but I have no clue about what commercial construction costs these days.
Rooster14
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I wonder if this includes a new jail? If not, will they expand the current jail facility? Also where is a good place for PD? Across William King Cole, between fire admin and Texas.
duffelpud
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AG
My first question is, will this cause my already high taxes to go up? A little research turned up the following information.

General Obligation Bonds (G.O. bonds)

When a state, city or other issuer issues general obligation bonds, this means that the issuer is guaranteeing repayment of the bonds using any means necessary. The full faith, credit, and taxing power of the issuer are backing the bonds. This means that the issuer is going to use any taxation power in its authority to make sure they get paid back; the issuer is putting the revenues from every type of tax on the hook to guarantee the bonds: Income taxes, corporate taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, gas taxes, any tax that can be levied by the issuer. This is why it is called a general obligation bond: The issuer is generally obligated. If the issuer has any problems paying it back, the issuer has to raise taxes or come up with the money somehow, some way to pay it back. The issuer may even have to sell assets to do it. If the issuer misses a payment, known as a "default", a judge can order the issuer to take corrective action to raise money to satisfy the bondholders.

According to the city,
these bonds will be repaid from property taxes.

That's $182,150,000 in new' credit card charges' for the taxpayers of College Station to add to current 'charges' of $353,536,318. How will this affect my 'credit card bill', aka property taxes?

The city can issue $45-60 million in bonds without increasing property tax rates. So, doing a little basic math, this means if the entire committee recommended list of goodies is approved, taxes will be increased to cover an amount between $122,000,000 and $137,150,000. Of course they could increase taxes for the full amount, but I'll go with these numbers for now.

So how much to taxes have to be increased to pay for this amount?

A quasi-rigorous search didn't turn up a specific answer to this question. I did, however, find information on how bonds increased taxes in the City of Richardson:

quote:
As for why the tax rates have been increased, there may be various reasons, but one clear cause is the issuance of bonds. The tax rate increase from 2010 to 2011 (.06) was a direct result of the 2010 $66 million bond program, and the tax rate increase from 2006 to 2007 (.05) was a direct result of the 2006 $55 million bond program.

The increases prior to this point (2002 to 2003 and 2004 to 2005) may have been at least partially related to the 1997 $77,999,319 bond program. Initially, when the 1997 program was advertised, it was expected that there would be no tax increase associated with the bonds.


Using those figures as a general guide, taxes would increase in the neighborhood of 0.12, or roughly $26.00 on every $100,000 of property owned by taxpayers. Last year the city increased property taxes by about that amount - 12.09% - an amount that increased taxes by $26.54 on every $100,000 of property owned by taxpayers. (Math/tax geniuses please correct my undoubtedly numerous errors)

What seems clear from everything I've read is that passage of the bond gives the City the right and the obligation to increase taxes in the future in order to pay off the bond, even if they tell you today that there will be no increase.

Looking back at the 2008 bond election, it's interesting that the city maintains its passage had "no impact on property tax rate". I think it's a bit disingenuous to make that claim - perhaps, "did not directly lead to property tax rate increases" would be a better way to explain its passage. Undoubtedly, it had an impact, just indirectly.

Why were taxes increased 12.09% last year? Could it be...



...wait for it...




...to pay for the 2008 bond issue?




FYI, here are the committee members:

Chair: Rod Thornton
CoChair: William Smith

Transportation Subcommittee
Chair: Tedi Ellison
CoChair: Beverly Kuhn
James Batenhorst
Mark Green
Linda Harvell
Brittan Johnson
Ronald Kaiser

Facilities Subcommittee
Chair: Thomas Taylor
CoChair: Kevin McGinnis
Gary Ives
William, Lartigue. Jr.
Scott Raisor
Rene Ramirez
Garland Watson

Parks Subcommittee
Chair: Jon Denton
CoChair: Marc Chaloupka
Sherry Ellison
Don Hellriegel
Keith Roberts
Chris Scotti
Dan Stribling
UmustBKidding
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I really don't have the hours it would take to address this mess. But no tax increase is a smoke & mirrors exercise. For instance it takes equipment & people to have a new fire station, not included in this. System wide park improvements likely the same, new lawnmowers, people to run them and the like.
I have worked with appraisal districts in the past and there ALWAYS is a back channel to the taxing entities that nudge the prosperity values to make sure tax rate adjustments never get to the roll back threshold. Oh you don't need to guess which way the get nudged.
This list is just stupid. Roadway, Intersection, RR Grade, Traffic signal but no details that I can find. And many of these needs are a direct result of bad past decisions.
cslifer
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While a lot of the items are a result of having to fix bad decisions that both the voters and city council have made in the past don't you want to fix them now? I don't see a point in not doing so. Poor choices were made, so let's fix them. And yes I included the voters for a reason. Remember the couple bucks a month the city wanted to tack onto the utility bill for a road repair fund? If you will recall it was the voters (lead by a tea party nut job who ran for city council lord knows how many times) that shot that down. Roads still have to be fixed and the money has to come from somewhere, which brings us to our current situation.
duffelpud
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AG
$28,000,000 seems reasonable for a new police station as does $4,900,000 for another fire station.

Of interest is that 2008 Proposition 5 for building a community center - defeated by voters - has made it back into the latest list of recommendations (Proverbs 26:11). Why spend another $50,000,000 on a community center when we already have the Brazos Expo Center, numerous available Texas A&M meeting facilities, the Southwood Community Center, the Lincoln Recreation Center, the Wolf Pen Creek Green Room, at least three fire station community rooms, the Wellborn Community Center along with countless churches, club halls, hotel meeting facilities and outdoor spaces for the purpose of community organizing?

$30,000,000 for an indoor pool is, in my opinion, ludicrous, as is almost $1,000,000 for another skate park and half a million dollars for a spray park; these should be commercial, pay-for-use ventures and not taxpayer subsidised maintenance nightmares / injury lawyer hangouts. I'd personally love to have a nifty air-conditioned garage complete with auto lifts, tools and a lap track, but I don't hang out at city government free-cookie sessions demanding that the taxpayers pony up for my hobbies. Spray park? I can save the taxpayers five-hundred-large right here...

SumAggie
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take funds from projects eliminated and do road improvements.

2. UPRR grade crossings and roadway improvements ($18 million )
9. Traffic signals ($1.5 million)
11. FM 2818 capacity improvement ($2 million)
13. Rock Prairie Road East widening (SH6 to Medical Way) ($1.9 million)
15. Holleman Drive South widening ($11.5 million)
UmustBKidding
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The problem is these stupid decisions of the "council" are when they took the recommendations of the staff. An the staff that sold these what turned out to be bad decisions are still there running the show today. De-annex Wellborn and take the fire station and the greens prairie/royder improvements off, save $20M of these bond items and have a bunch of happy ex residents to boot, but will never happen.

All the pool, skate, park and splash pad are all to improve the quality of life. Well they screwed my quality of life when the annexed me. Our neighborhood new years and 4 of july cook outs and block party ended with we were put in the ETJ. I am no longer able to rent my MIL space for out of town visitors so my daughter will probably have to get rid of her horses. I get nothing from CS other than taxes.

None of the road improvement items enumerate what is going to be fixed. For all I know the Greens Prairie intersection improvements are so Margraves ranch has better access. The police station likely is to small, but maybe we would be better served by having a north and south substation. Their current response time is pitiful maybe this would improve it. The comment about them repurposing the existing space if lol funny to me. Look how well they have re purposed the original Fire Station one space. (who's relocation was also a boondoggle).

Even though the new fire station would directly benefit me I will vote against it. When residents begged them to relocate station 3 further west they would not do it and now we have to build station 7 that would not have had to. And when they decided that station one was to small and several recommended building a superstation near its location they told us everything is moving south so we have to move to holleman. When that move did not transpire we have to build a 7M+ station 6 to cover the northern area.

They need to get rid of staff recommendations. Staff needs to present a list of options and with pro's and cons. We need a council that looks critically at the options and the long term repercussions of these decisions. Many of these proposals have long term liability, staffing and maintenance cost these should be enumerated in the publicly availability material, but having an informed public is counterproductive to empire building.

SO no I don't want to go ahead and fix these mistakes. Call me petty, punitive or what ever you want, but I think having the public experience some discomfort may force a few to examine how we got in this situation. Maybe they would be so quick to repeat them. Maybe it will encourage some council candidates that are willing to look beyond the staff's recommendations and truly evaluate the options.



duffelpud
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AG
Reminds me of this oldie but goodie...

cslifer
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Not looking for an arguement by any means, but come on, let's be realistic. The city is not forcing you to sell your horses. The city is not keeping you from having cook outs and block parties. I agree about a south substation for Pd but you still have to have some sort of central station. And fire stations are placed very carefully based on call volumes and response times. A while back I had a very interesting conversation the the fire chief in which he explained it. I highly recommend you attempt to talk to these city staff you hold in such contempt instead of just bashing them on the Internet. You may not walk away agreeing with them but I promise you will see that there is more thought than you think that goes into it. The "I will benefit from it but ain't going to pay" mentality is getting pretty old. How about being part of a solution instead of just complaining for once.
Midtown SAHD
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Yeah, I'm opposed to almost everything on there. None of it is needed. The community center and natatorium are both laughably unneeded and expensive. The Trails, skate park, spray park, ect... are silly and wasteful. About the only things on there I could approve would be the traffic signals and UPRR grade. Now if the city wants to buy up and tear down some of the Seciton 8 apartments and turn that into a skate park, I'll listen. That is a quality of life issue, not having a spray pad is nothing
UmustBKidding
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The final straw when my house was broken into and it took seven hours for CSPD to arrive. The sheriff has responded to my house in the county multiple times since I bailed on CS and the response has never been more than 5 minutes.
I moved out of college station 20 years ago and close to 10 miles from the nearest city limit at the time. I lived on a short non through county road. I figured it was safe. The county decided to punch the road through and it was all down hill from there.

I actually like the CSFD, my neighbour retired from there and they are good folks. But I also have talked to the consultants on the station relocations and other people that do emergency management planning for a living. And to this day they talk about why the staff proposal was wrong. Moving station 3 further west you would have had to accelerate the deployment of station 5 but would have saved having to build 7 now. And don't even get them started on station one move the the ridiculousness implementation of station 6. It made it more palatable to spend less money up front but is more costly in the end. I am sure the department would have been fine relocating station 3 between where it is now and the proposed 7 and building 5 at the same time. But staff I am sure told them there is no way to sell the public on building two stations at once. The fact is expansion is expensive and they public needs to know it.

No CS is not forcing me to sell, but being in the city is literally costing me ~$12,000+ yr and I get nothing but police service far worse than I had in the county. Something has to go unfortunately. An all the neighbours want to shoot fireworks on holidays so no more neighbourhood holiday parties. I personally miss being able to shoot coyotes when they bother the horses & poultry.

I went to the pre annex presentation and the most committal anyone of the department staff that was there is that said they would deal with it. Water & sewer we are not providing anything, Electric, you already got it. Garbage we just contract recycling and will deal with the extra without adding anything. Police basically was we are already over booked but we have to drive by your house since we have to cover Wellborn. So a bunch of we have to do whatever our boss decides but we were told at that first public meeting by planning that the recommendation to the council was going to be should be annexed. Even though I believe I am now annexed I am still waiting on the required by law and promised by planning notice of public hearings before the P&Z and readings of the ordnance before the council. Only reason I think we are annexed is the trash people send a letter at a cost of $7 to me stating due to recent annexation activity we could buy trash service for ~50% more than the private service that is already available. Welcome to Fn College Station.

Also have a friend who recently went to work for COCS. He had lots of bigger offers else were but wanted to stay local. So he is already wanting to bail, so hard for him to take it. And it not because of the hectic pace but because of the insane bureaucracy that stands in the way of any progress. He talks about projects they have been involved in for years that at his previous bureaucratic government agency position that they completed in a matter of months. Every time I ask about a specific groups technical competence the answer is always the same, there are some nice people over there.

So I don't hate staff (ok maybe a few that have outright lied to me). I understand every government group on the planet is not who you would hold up as the model of efficiency. But there are a lot of nice people over there.







CSTX-Socol
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It might be useful to your discussion to see this slightly different list of ranked projects because it indicates how the committee members themselves actually scored them. Some projects received a lot of points, a couple received none, and several are somewhere in between. This list was given to the city council last week, marking the end of the committee's many months of work -- work that they took extremely seriously.

Council and staff now begin analysis and discussion about which projects, if any, should be placed on a November ballot for consideration.

Since I'm unsure how many city council members read this forum, I'd encourage you to also email your thoughts/questions about any or all of these projects so they can be received promptly and shared easily: 2015bond@cstx.gov.

-jgs
cslifer
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If the city is costing you 12k a yr then your property is worth north of a million dollars, in which case you should have over ten acres and can shoot the coyotes, reference the code of ordinances. Also, the city didn't use consultants deciding where to put the Fd, so try again...
UmustBKidding
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So before I ever posted anything on this thread I read all the committee reports. I personally know several of the people that attended and made comments. But to think this list or the comments to the committee is in any way exhaustive or represents even a small fraction of residents desires or priorities is delusional. I applaud the volunteers for their efforts but they produced so little I am a little sorry the city wasted their time. Ms Ellison on the transportation committee asked from the public to email comments but if this is what they worked from there is no wonder the proposal are so vague.

So its the 21 century out here and we have these things called computers. A couple of rounds with survey monkey would have produced far more input and likely pointed to specific real issues and unmet needs. But it likely also would have not have placed the noble projects of nicer police digs and another fire station nearly as high on the list. And Mr Socol the Council and the staff taking up this list is not comforting the a large number of us.

So why did we not have a round of everyone throw out your priority project in a few categories like transportation, health&safety, entertainment & leisure and even facilities & infrastructure. Run that for a few weeks then publish the whole list. Then let people choose some number of them that they think would benefit the community at large within a category. A few more rounds and you would have a list that you could research cost & feasibility. It would have produced a far more robust and statistically significant result. But this list for the most part was pre ordained. So we take the staff's must have an put these on the top of the list, mix in a few public comments items, tack on the we promised some politically connected citizens desires and you have this proposal. The citizens deserve some of the blame for the lame list because of the pitiful participation in the lousy process. But fixing the process is firmly in the staff's and councils hands. I have just been assimilated by the borg of CS and I plan to either be the thorn in their side or start planning my exit strategy.

So we need people to not only vote but to be informed before they do. Don't assume the staff is noble, don't assume that the justification is there because its on the list. You should understand the obligations that voting yes incurs. You need to consider all the outlays not just the capital expenditures. These projects all have cost for debt service, maintenance and upkeep, personal, equipment which likely exceed the cost of the line item and in many cases will continue forever. But you also need to consider the repercussions of a no vote. Some of these like the fire station being voted down will cost all the citizens higher insurance premiums, and potentially even someone their life. But not even that my outweigh the long term obligations they incur.

I an not scared of an informed voter, but informed voters are no friend to bureaucracies.
lockett93
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AG
What I want is multiple bond offerings that I can individually vote yes or no on. Don't give me all in a 180MM bond package.
UmustBKidding
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Nope. The property tax is only $3K of this. I have had to cancel all my reservations for people that booked to rent my house and garage apartment for football, graduation and other events. I am not even counting nuisance cost list alarm license, permit fees and other BS that I an now forced to participate in.

The fact that my appraisal is > than 2x what the improvements on the property cost to build and getting no results with the appraisal district getting them adjusted does not help either.

So I get to pay taxes, have my ability to use my property to generate income infringed, become subject to regulation, fees and restrictions that I was not able to have any input on when they were enacted. But I do get included for no additional charge code enforcement and land use planning. Gee thanks.

And you are right the station 7 placement did not require a consultant. It required collusion with the school district that so graciously volunteered to provide the land for it lest their liability and facility protection insurance rates would have been unbearable. I am not sure their contingency plans if the station bond is voted down.


Frio Cielo
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1. Construction of a new police station ($28 million) Probably needed south of town, but would it really cost that much?

8. Community center ($15,555,000) For what? If just for club and group meetings primarily, either lease A&M space or lease space. Lot's of large vacant structures around with ample parking.

12. Southeast Community Park development ($20 million) $20 million????? for what??

16. Trails ($6.1 million) Again, $6 million?????? for what?

17. Skate park ($900,000 Should be private enterprise if the demand is there. What is the demand?

18. Natatorium ($30 million) Wow! just Wow!
cslifer
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Please tell me you don't mean this:
" the fire station being voted down will cost all the citizens higher insurance premiums, and potentially even someone their life. But not even that my outweigh the long term obligations they incur. ". You actually think that someone dying may be better than paying for a new fire station???? I dislike taxes as much as anyone but damn. Between the constant complaining, the refusal to be part of a solution, and now willing to place a few bucks in taxes above someone's life how on earth does anyone take you seriously?
Stucco
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This list is certainly not how I would choose to spend my $1,800.
duffelpud
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AG
I emailed 2015bond@cstx.gov requesting information but have yet to receive a response. Is there an individual actually checking that email account and, if so, can we just email them directly? Or does it take several days before a response is generated?
UmustBKidding
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Decisions like this are made every day. If you are willing to travel by car the odds are 1:112 you will eventually die in one because of this decision. So the fact is even if station 7 is built some one is going to die in its response zone because of fire. The question is what are the odds are that some one will die because the fire response is 4 minutes instead of 8 minutes. The chances you die by fire is about 1:1142, so we know its far less than that. But of course there are no statistics that show the increased odds of death by delay. The odds of death would be lowered far more by retrofitting the structures in the zone to have connected smoke alarms, and at far less cost. Far greater delay and property loss will be because there are no hydrants in the area and they have said they absolutely have no intention of adding them. Also having a brush truck (they vfd of course already has one) would significantly reduce losses, but CS only unit is in 5 near pebble creek. The response time from there to this area is > 15min but a truck and tanker will cost close to the same amount as the station.
So yes the sad fact is people die in fires. Having a fire station on every corner will lower that number but never to zero. So there is a balance. Placing station 7 at the proposed location will be great for now, but as the College Station land (tax) grab continues south to Brentwood, Duck Haven, Sedona and Saddle Creek will it still be the proper location. Or will we need another station to cover them and the voters be so weary of the endless bond requests push people to say enough is enough.
CSTX-Socol
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[Please refrain from using personal names on this forum. -Staff]
cslifer
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After reading your response I have no clue where your numbers come from. No, death rates in cars are not 1 in 112. No the response time is not what you said it is (found that out with exactly 2 emails). Your issue about hydrants is with well born water, not the city. My guess is you are just bitter about being annexed and would rather complain that improve the situation. To each his own I guess, but that is a very sad life if you ask me.
UmustBKidding
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So you lifetime chance of dying in a car accident (not injury) is 1:112.
Lots of other causes listed here
http://www.nsc.org/learn/safety-knowledge/Pages/injury-facts-chart.aspx

The response time for this area I quoted is from a public meeting held by COCS. When Paul Gunnels (asst fire chief of CS) responded to my neighbor (a fireman) as to the response time without the addition of the proposed station 7. Mr Gunnels response was 8 minutes. When he commented that in that case it was likely that the structures of the type in the area would be fully involved before arrival the Asst Chief's response was yes. My 4 minute time is based on ISO and NFPA response time tables assuming that they are not going to build a station in a location that would not meet these standards. The recommendation of 3.2 minutes for an engine company arrival and 4.9 minutes for a ladder company I just rounded to four. If you want to do the calculations yourself you can use the formula here https://firechief.iso.com/FCWWeb/mitigation/ppc/3000/ppc3015.jsp An that took me exactly zero phone calls, I have done the calculations.

As to the hydrant issue not being College Stations problem but Wellborn water we had that discussion in the public forum. When the issue was brought up David Coleman (director of CS water services) said that CS could do nothing about it since we were on Wellborn water. Just happens to be a member of the board of Wellborn water in attendance so I asked the board member if Wellborn would negotiate a rate to install an maintain hydrants in the annexed area. The response was of course Welborn water would but planning and water both indicated it was not something they would do.

I am not happy about being annexed. Remember College Station is providing no new services and encroaching heavily on my liberties. Imagine some government entity going to your employer and telling them they have to garnish $1000/mo from your paycheck. And when they ask why the response is we are the government and they have no choice in it. I have three kids in college and work multiple jobs to keep up. I was not renting my house out because I like to but because it allowed my to make tuition payments.

So I would love being part of the solution but I informed Mr Sims if the annexation went though I was likely going to be part of the problem. My part of the solution is not to annex areas you can't or don't intend to serve. They decided not to listen to my very reasonable suggestion.
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duffelpud
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AG
Thanks, Jay. I did receive an email shortly after you posted. It did not, however, provide the answer I sought and I have sent a follow up question.

I am curious, though, how you know my name since this is supposedly an anonymous forum and I only used my initials in the email I sent to the city regarding the bond issue? Since I read that "shifting the city's image from perceived arrogance to that of a city council and staff that cares, listens and responds to citizens and business owners" is one of your goals, I would suggest that calling out citizens names where they prefer to remain anonymous runs counter to that sentiment; I choose to use my name in certain forums and to use pseudonyms in others and respectfully ask that you honor those wishes.

Allowing citizens the freedom to express their opinions anonymously, a right guaranteed in our Constitution, serves the public interest by fostering a more robust public discourse free from the threats, both perceived and real, of tyranny. Where would this country be without its tradition of anonymous political speech? Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay published "The Federalist Papers" under the name Publius to force critics of the Constitution to attack the ideas behind the document rather than the authors of the essays.

The ideas won.
taxpreparer
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AG
I live in one of the oldest areas of College Station and mostly agree with dufflepud concerning annexation and this bond election. Sometimes the solution is to be the problem and make those in charge highly visible about their decisions.
***It's your money, not theIRS! (At least for a little while longer.)
CSTX-Socol
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Sorry, Duffelpud. As you know, we've communicated with one another before -- both in this forum and outside of it. I absolutely should've defaulted to your forum moniker.

Glad you sent a follow-up email to staff, and I'm sure you'll receive a response soon. Please let me know if that's not the case: jsocol@cstx.gov.

Take care,

-jgs
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