Elementary Gifted and Talented Question

7,362 Views | 32 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by TXTransplant
agswife
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I'm trying to think of the future for my child in the CSISD school system. If my child wants to take AP classes later (when offered), do they need to first be in the Gifted and Talented classes in elementary school? Does that make it easier for them to automatically be placed in AP classes later? Also, from what I can tell, Gifted and Talented seems to mostly be field trips to watch things like science shows at A&M - is there any real educational benefit to this or is it better for them to be in regular classes focusing on the basics?
befitter
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GT in elementary get pulled out of regular class once a week for a GT class. My child didn't test for GT until 5th grade. He is now in 7th and is currently in advanced math and ELA but also has the opportunity to take GT courses (Robotics for example) if he likes. I do not believe that not being GT prevents them from being in advanced or AP classes later on if they have the grades.
Scooley01
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AG
They're not directly linked, but if your child would be successful in AP classes in the future, then it's a safe bet that they'd benefit from being in GT now.
medic1969p
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GT in elementary is only 1 1/2 weeks. I sometimes think its not worth it.
the wallflower
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GT and AP programs are not linked. AP programs are for advanced and/or diligent students to earn college credit in high school. (And these days, often serve as a proving grounds to college that one is college ready.) GT programs are for gifted students - the exceptional, not just the hard-working, well-behaved. GT serves to enrich a student's learning (more depth of content, perhaps some advancement). Sadly, Pre-AP and AP type classes are all that serve GT students at the high school level.
1.618
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GT and AP classes are two different animals. GT is not required for acceptance in the AP classes. I know several GT kids who are not motivated enough to take AP classes or perhaps they only take the AP classes in the classes they have interest in. It is definitely more work. I think of the AP classes as just more rigorous than the on level classes as they are trying to get the kids to the point that they pass a test at the end. Another option is to take Honors classes rather than AP.

The only benefit that I see to GT is that if you have a child that would like to be in Robotics starting in 7th grade, then GT is the only way to get there.
mlea09
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The GT program in my elementary school was a specific classroom of only GT kids, allowing us to move faster and learn some subjects more in-depth. Is there not anything like that within any of the CSISD elementary schools? Or is it only being pulled out of the classroom at certain times for GT activities?

For what it's worth, this was the direction that my school district went once kids were in late elementary school (4th-6th grade). We spent 2 hours a week in GT and then were bored to tears the rest of the week in the regular classroom. I don't have kids yet, but I had hoped they would have the opportunity for a more challenging school environment full-time (if they were identified as GT).
w8liftr
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The primary reason there are no longer any separate GT classes in public schools is that the parents of non-GT students had their feelings hurt because little Johnny didn't get picked for GT.

As a result the needs of distinct student group are neglected.
1.618
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The reason that there are no GT classrooms is because there are not sufficient numbers of GT kids to make up the class. There are about 7-8 classrooms per grade of 20 kids in CSISD elementary schools each so you expect to find about 7-8 GT kids total for a grade. Even if you think that we are above average and have 12 GT kids, it is not enough to fill up a class. I can hear the weeping and wailing already if the district tried a GT class with a teacher and 12 kids all year--they would have to bus the GT kids in from all over the district. Yikes! <insert grin>

Pull out is the only thing that makes sense unless you are willing to put several grades together and that would drive people nuts.

Back in the old days, the schools would start with a GT population and then add kids that were highly intelligent and motivated or they would have a huge campus from which to draw. Or they would be located by the Medical Center in Houston where all the doctors' kids are. There are a couple of schools where the GT kids make up 95% of the school population so every class is GT....like it or not.
txgardengirl
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GT in our CSISD elementary is pull out. We also have a pull out for kids deemed 'advanced' but not quite to the testing level of GT. They work on critical thinking skills and other tasks not typical in a standard classroom and have projects. They do not have a ton of field trips or filler time, at least not at our campus.

AP and GT are two different beasts from my understanding
understandingmom
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As a parent please do not get wrapped up in it. There is a program under GT that is called enrichment. My child can not tell me anything she did worthwhile in this program in 4 years. Half of the time they didn't even go when scheduled and just skipped that day.
If your child is in the program try it, it isn't going to hurt but it is not worth a fuss if they do not make it. I do not know all the specifics because I didn't worry myself about it. I think they have to be nominated and a parent assessment has to be done. A friend of ours tested out of kindergarten and went straight to 1st, did GT, and made at least one B in elementary. My child went to kinder, didn't make GT, and has all A's. If you line them up side by side everyone that knows them both (from lunch lady to teacher to other kids) would pick my child over the other. I hate for that to sound harsh but that's the best I can explain it from experience. I don't think it will effect AP one bit.
medic1969p
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At our campus GT and Enrichment are the same thing. You can self nominate your child for GT testing or the teacher can recommend testing. If the teacher recommends your child you will have to consent to testing. The testing is done in the spring and it involves 3 different types of IQ testing. It will come back with a %. If your child makes it into the program they will start the following year. It's one day per week for 1 1/2 hours and at our campus on Friday there is a a time the students can leave class and go to the GT Enrichment class and play chess.
BigBubba
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AG
AP classes and GT are completely independent of each other. Don't let your decision to have your child tested for GT be affected by future decisions to take AP courses.GT is not about field trips. I actually don't recall my child taking any fields trips in the 5 years she has been in GT but there might have been one I just don't recall.

To quote CSISD: Gifted and talented student means a child or youth who performs at or shows the potential for performing at a remarkably high level of accomplishment when compared to others of the same age,experience, or environment and who exhibits high performance capability in an intellectual, creative, or artistic area, possesses an unusual capacity for leadership, or excels in a specific academic field.

It doesn't mean that all GT students make straight A's. It also doesn't mean that straight A students should be in GT. Many parents just don't understand this and think because little Johnny makes straight A's that he should be in GT. GT is more about meeting the needs of those students and challenging them in ways specific to their unique abilities. Without GT, some of those students may actually struggle to perform at a high level.

I have been pleased by the GT program and my daughter has enjoyed it. If you feel you child might qualify then have them tested. If they don't make it, don't sweat it. Your child may still end up making straight A's, being valedictorian and getting accepted to Harvard.
TexasAggie98
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AG
Yes, our experience with GT at the elementary level is that of a pull out program. My understanding from a meeting that a group of parents had with one of the district enrichment specialists, is the GT is an automatic admission to AP courses in the future, although you can qualify to get in to AP in other ways.

We were not super impressed with out GT experience, but I suppose it is better than nothing. There were 20 kids that qualified in my sons grade, but the school wouldn't consider grouping them together, instead sprinkling them throughout all the classes.

In all reality, GT represents one end of the bell curve, and as such is classified as a special need and should be receiving funding as such, but rarely does. The district has a responsibility to provide special services for these kids, but it rarely translates into a meaningful experience. For example, robotics is the only GT experience in middle school if I am understanding correctly. Well, say you've got a gifted kid that just isn't interested in robotics, what then? Nothing.

And understandingmom above, what on earth was that about everyone 'choosing' your child above a GT child???? Everyone's child is special, and gifted children can be more difficult at times to parent and to educate, but that doesn't make them less desirable. Ouch.
agswife
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Thank you for all of the replies. As this is my first child in CSISD I didn't even know that there are other options such as Enrichment, and that Honors courses are different from AP courses. School is so much different now compared to when I was growing up. I have a lot to learn as we navigate this!
w8liftr
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quote:
In all reality, GT represents one end of the bell curve, and as such is classified as a special need and should be receiving funding as such, but rarely does. The district has a responsibility to provide special services for these kids, but it rarely translates into a meaningful experience. For example, robotics is the only GT experience in middle school if I am understanding correctly. Well, say you've got a gifted kid that just isn't interested in robotics, what then? Nothing.

So, if we feel the needs of our GT students are not being met by weekly pullouts, etc., how do we go about getting their needs met? Do we go through Special Ed since they're classified as having special needs?
summergal
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Well two of my three children were GT. Long time ago if your child was tagged you moved into the classroom with a teacher that was GT trained and certified. It was a total waste of time. FF to my last kid. Sorry to say after 2 attempts at testing he just blew off the test. This kid is a Mensa and they could not even recognize it from any other standardized testing including those state mandatory tests and later a private school testing with the Stanford, or his own brain power. That is where I think teachers should look. What kind of critical thinking and outside the box our kids are because not all kids are going to take the test seriously. I just SMH at teachers that want cookie cutter students and don't recognize what they have right under their noses. Just my 2 cents worth.
TexasAggie98
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AG
quote:
quote:
In all reality, GT represents one end of the bell curve, and as such is classified as a special need and should be receiving funding as such, but rarely does. The district has a responsibility to provide special services for these kids, but it rarely translates into a meaningful experience. For example, robotics is the only GT experience in middle school if I am understanding correctly. Well, say you've got a gifted kid that just isn't interested in robotics, what then? Nothing.

So, if we feel the needs of our GT students are not being met by weekly pullouts, etc., how do we go about getting their needs met? Do we go through Special Ed since they're classified as having special needs?


That is my understanding, that GT is supposed to be equivalent to Special Needs in funding and eductional services. We left the public schools, so I have not followed up on this, although I remain interested as we will be heading back to public school sooner or later, and we have other kiddos coming into kinder soon. I get it though, the schools have a responsibility to everyone, and it probably seems silly to some to spend extra precious resources on the top 1% when they already do well on standardized testing, etc. I think it would help if all the GT students were grouped together in one class with a true GT exemplary teacher. Not just certified. I believe all the first grade teachers at my son's old school were certified, but some had much better experience with GT kids than others. Some GT kids just wind up getting extra homework (at the same level) instead of extra enrichment or advancement. Definitely not the way to keep a gifted kid motivated.
momlaw
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AG
"Giftedness" is far more than intellect or potential for achievement. It is most certainly misunderstood by most parents and educators, even of the population. After years of study and advocacy the two words that come to mind are intensity and complexity. There is much to learn if you are, associate with, parent or have a parent who is. Here are some resources.

Texas Association of Gifted and Talented txgifted.org

Hoagies Gifted http://hoagiesgifted.org
One of my favorite pieces on this site: Is it a Cheetah? by Stephanie Tolan http://www.stephanietolan.com/is_it_a_cheetah.htm

SENG, Social and Emotional Needs of Gifted http://www.sengifted.org

If a child is both gifted and has learning differences 2e or Twice Exceptional is an excellent resource http://www.2enewsletter.com/topic_2e_what_is.html Their news digest is free. The newsletter has a subscription fee. Wonderful people.

If you are fortunate enough to know Dr. Juntune who is in Ed Psych at TAMU, she is one of the most incredible resources you will ever find. My first formal learning about this thing called "giftedness" was at a seminar she conducted for Houston area school educators almost 15 years ago.

My brief experience with CSISD Gifted and Talented effort was not satisfying. What they do is simply because it is state mandated and their efforts, at the time and perhaps now, were minimalist. I imagine in some schools there are knowledgeable and dedicated principles and or teachers making the most of difficult circumstances. Those children and families are indeed fortunate.

Fitnessgal
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We moved out of the Bryan ISD school district this past school year and put our children in Montgomery. My daughter was in "GT" classes there in Bryan and I'm not really sure what they did to be honest. I was under the assumption they were given different colored worksheets in class that were a bit harder then the regular work.

I was shocked to enroll that child (5th grade) into classes here to see they have GT only classes. Its amazing. She's not the smartest one in the class now, so she has to bring her A Game and I love that (as does she!) We also quickly saw that our children (Even though in GT and AP Classes in Bryan ) are behind here in Montgomery due to the lack of Bryan ISD Education. MISD doesn't mess around when it comes to education and their test scores and academic ratings show this!

My question for Bryan ISD is this.. why do you not have enough students to put in GT only classes? Sure, there may be positives and negatives of holding classes this way but if you don't even have enough students to make several GT classes out of hundreds of students does this go back to the Kinder level of academic teachings? Sure, students are on all different levels but you would think there would be more then 7 kiddos that are more advanced then the others. I do think they need different teachings. If taught at that standard level, I feel its strapping them to that standard and not encouraging them to go above and beyond. You strap them to that standard and then you have just standard or just above average education scores.

My eyes were completely opened transferring districts. I knew no different while in the BISD school system, but they really need to step it up!

Bryan Middle School Behavorial efforts (or Lack OF!) in the leadership department is something I won't even start on. Horrible, Horrible, Horrible.
w8liftr
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GT only classes should be small. Statistically, there shouldn't be more than 10-12 GT kids per grade in a typical elementary school. And, if there are legal requirements for educating GT students similar to those for Special Education students, why aren't B & CS ISDs providing the same level of service as they do for SpEd?
Oogway
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Yes, the number of GT students should be small--actually, a lot smaller than many realize. The state of Texas does not allow for a District to claim GT students above a certain percentage (5%, I think?) or at least it doesn't fund above that percentage. With about 11000 students, that would be not very many students for the entire district, much less one campus. The BCS area might trend towards more, because the population has a higher number of parents with not only college degrees, but advanced degrees. In addition, in order for a GT program to be exemplary it must reflect the student population in the district as a whole.

Both Bryan and CS try to fund GT, but the requirements by the State are weighted with regards to funding. For example, CATE programs (those of you with high schoolers are familiar with these) are given a weight of 1.35. It is a little more complicated than this, but to compare, GT is given a weight of .12, Bilingual and ESL is .1 and so on. Special Education has several different weights because of the spectrum over which disabilities may impair a student's learning. These range from 1.1 to 5.0 and as with the other types of weights, are multiplied by the number of Full time students participating in the programs.

I am not employed by either district, nor do I have a lot of knowledge about exactly how this all works, but there are folks a lot smarter than me at your district office that may be able to answer your questions.
isitjustme
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AG
Fortunately, we've had a goodexperience in BISD. Our kids were tested into GT on their first tries (bragging point for the parents more than the kids), and they did do some extra GT-oriented work on a weekly basis but not a ton during elementary.

As a result, they were readily accepted into the Inquire Program that, while at Jane Long, was like a school within a school. They had classes with other fairly sharp kids, most of whose parents were interested in their child's education. That last point is important.

After Inquire, they went to Bryan High and went intoPre-IB and eventually the IB program, where the class sizes are typically small (<20). This is a very challenging course of study as it includes several large essays (2,000 - 4,000 words) and students must pass numerous IB exams to obtain this internationally recognized diploma. One was successful, and the other is still in school.
1.618
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Being GT does not make things easier and it often makes things more difficult. I'm happy not to have my kids in an all GT classroom as it would be freakish provided the kids were appropriately selected and not just push in by well-meaning but misguided parents.
techno-ag
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AG
quote:
In all reality, GT represents one end of the bell curve, and as such is classified as a special need and should be receiving funding as such, but rarely does.


That's my understanding as well. GT is similar to Special Ed, in that students labelled such need to be taught differently from regular ed students.
Diamond Geezer
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I did some quick checking on this...

it turns out, students have to have a teacher recommendation or parents have to attend a waiver meeting for students to register for academically rigorous courses.

It also turns out that special ed is based on the IDEA law (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), and being GT is not considered a "disability." Wow. who knew?

Also turns out that school districts do get funding for special ed and have to meet guidelines for
that spending... and both CSISD and BISD are definitely meeting those guidelines. There is no requirement for an individualized education plan for GT students.
Carnwellag2
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our district's GT program is not done for what I typically think it should be. They are looking for kids who don't fit the mold of a typical student. Could be they learn differently and are motivated differently. Not necessarily the brightest kids in a grade.


I would prefer our ISD change the program an Identify kids that are above average and work more with them to reach full potential instead of reach the average potential as currently happens.
medic1969p
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It also turns out that special ed is based on the IDEA law (Individuals with Disabilities Education Act), and being GT is not considered a "disability." Wow. who knew?

Many GT students are also ADHD (along with other things that could be found in formal testing) which does fall under the Spec Ed and you can get a 504 hearing done and special accommodations made.
Joe Schillaci 48
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AG
IMHO

GT programs exist for parents bragging rights.

Oldest child was selected for GT in CSISD years ago. After two years he hated it and we removed him. Next child was "recruited" for GT and we refused.

Today they are successful people and TAMU graduates.. One has an MBA and works for a Fortune 500 company. The other is an attorney. Please no lawyer jokes : )

Both had non GT program classes, participated in academic and athletic extracurricular activities (athletic lettermen, class officers, etc) and turned out OK.

Work with your child and their teachers and they will do well in the real world.

Keep your ego in check.

PS we would be happy if they were successful plumbers or electricians.
Joe Schillaci 48
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AG
quote:



dp
BigBubba
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AG
You know, it is very possible the GT program has changed in the past 20 years since your children were in it.
Joe Schillaci 48
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AG
^^^^^^
I am sure it is. Back them CSISD was different. 80-90% of the students had parents that were connected to TAMU. If you were a professor or a higher administrator you were embarrassed if your child was not in GT.

I am aware of circumstances where district officials had strong pressure to admit certain students into the program.

My employment had no ties to the University and my company placed me here because of the location to Houston, Dallas and San Antonio/Austin.

I am a strong believer in inclusion. That is the value of the public school system. Academically gifted children can learn a lot from kids who are not so academically gifted.

I had a friend (who has some locally and nationally famous sons) once said at a public meeting, that he had a child that could run the 40 yard dash in a near state record time. He asked if his child was gifted or talented.

I laughed and the administrator had the deer in the headlights look. BTW his children excelled academically as well.

TKDMom
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quote:
GT and AP classes are two different animals. GT is not required for acceptance in the AP classes. I know several GT kids who are not motivated enough to take AP classes or perhaps they only take the AP classes in the classes they have interest in. It is definitely more work. I think of the AP classes as just more rigorous than the on level classes as they are trying to get the kids to the point that they pass a test at the end. Another option is to take Honors classes rather than AP.


After having two daughters go through the GT program through CSISD, we opted not to allow our son to even be tested. One daughter discovered that thanks to her GT tag, she got to do "advanced" classes in middle school. Turned out "advanced" was doing all the problems in the book for homework instead of half of them. Seriously, same text for all the kids. Second daughter dropped out of the GT program before finishing middle school, but took Honors classes for several subjects in high school. Son is a lazy butt who makes A's and B's and loves his classes and is crazy about Media Tech. He avoided advanced everything but Honors History and Pre-AP Calculus.
Of the 3 I think he's had the most "fun" with his high school experience.
TXTransplant
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This is purely anecdotal, based on our personal experience, but IMO the problem with the GT program is there is absolutely NO continuity among school districts. That I in ISD means what it stands for when it comes to GT.

My son tested into the GT program in CSISD in K and officially started the program in 1st grade. He LOVED it, and I was thrilled with the quality of the GT certified teachers who he was assigned to for "regular" class. In the middle of 2nd grade, we had to move out of CSISD. For a few weeks, I was unsure exactly where/what ISD we would end up. I called around to several potential programs, and that's when it became clear just how different the programs are. In particular, the tests that are administered and the scores required for admission to the program vary widely from district to district. The other districts had absolutely no interest in my son's GT scores from CSISD. I was really interested in one district that actually has a special middle school just for GT students, but, ultimately, that's not the area of town/district where we wound up.

When we finally settled on a new school, he was not allowed to transition into their GT program to finish out the school year (we moved in April, so it would have only been 2 months). They did re-test him (using their methods) and, of course, he did not place in GT for 3rd grade. Honestly, I took it harder than he did. Despite not being in GT, he performed wonderfully in 3rd grade...maybe even better than in previous years. He was still being taught by GT-certified teachers in the "regular" classes, and I think that made a huge difference (and was my biggest concern when he did not place in GT). He was tested again at the end of 3rd grade and is now back in the GT program for 4th grade.

As much as he loves the program, I don't think he would be missing out on anything if he wasn't in it. He loves the smaller class size, ability to interact with other kids who have similar interests/learning styles as he does, and he likes the special projects that they do. But, he is still highly motivated to do well in his "regular" classes. I have been very pleased with all of the GT certified teachers that have taught him in 1st-4th grade, so I think that does make a difference...if for no other reason that the GT certified teachers now how to manage a GT child in the regular classroom.

As a side note, the GT teacher/counselor at our current school said that there is a push in our district to do away with the pull-out GT program altogether and just have GT-certified teachers in every classroom. She said they would be tightening the scores required for admission into the program in order to reduce the number of GT students. She said part of the reason for this is the lack of state funding for GT-type programs. Take all of that with a grain of salt, though...I never followed up to verify the accuracy of what she told me.
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