CSISD Rezoning

13,677 Views | 69 Replies | Last: 9 yr ago by techno-ag
veritas47
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I heard on WTAW this morning a story about the rezoning plan for the opening of the newest elementary school. A major concern was having "socioeconomic balance" in the zoning. Other than being a liberal do-gooder's primary goal for our schools, how does squandering our very limited public education dollars busing kids all over creation improve the education our kids get? Since there is ZERO research proving ANY TANGIBLE benefit to this wasteful practice, why do we allow our overpaid ISD central planners push it onto our students?

Edit for link- http://wtaw.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/CSISD081914ElemRezone.pdf?844b79

[This message has been edited by veritas47 (edited 8/20/2014 10:02a).]
dfphotos
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Liberals!
95_Aggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
You should be thankful you live in a decent community. It could be much worse.
SARATOGA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I have a dream....

I have a dream that one day the school you attend will be based upon the address of your house and not the color of your skin.

I have a dream this day.




Our school zoning should be based on north/south lines, not east/west. Driving past one school to attend another is LUDICROUS !

Hoping for another high school within 10 years....and with current growth it might happen.
Fonzie Scheme
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Growth projections -- as they currently are -- show no need for a third high school for about 20 years. We will need a new intermediate school, possibly a third middle school before then. As kids get older, their parents tend to leave. That's why you've seen high growth in elementary schools, but moderate elsewhere.

As for the zoning? Your doing something counterproductive into the proverbial wind or fan. I don't agree with it but all it takes is one lawsuit. It's CYA by the "overpaid" admin folks you talk about. Besides, they aren't doing it without the unpaid board's approval, implicit or otherwise.

And before you get cutesy and prognosticate, I will clarify: I do not work for CSISD and never have in any capacity.
Shummy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Since there is ZERO research proving ANY TANGIBLE benefit to this wasteful practice...


Color me a liberal do-gooder but I can unequivocally say that this statement is false beyond all reproach.

By the way, there's really no reason to disparage one's political ideology. Ideas from both sides deserve equal consideration and wanting better education for our children should not be a partisan thing.
Coach Dub
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
quote:
Since there is ZERO research proving ANY TANGIBLE benefit to this wasteful practice...


Color me a liberal do-gooder but I can unequivocally say that this statement is false beyond all reproach.

"False beyond all reproach" according to what published, controlled (non-anecdotal) research?
Twix
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Has the school board released any information as to what neighborhoods will attend the new Spring Creek Elementary??
Anna Molly
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
Board held three community forums to receive feedback on potential parameters for rezoning
 February 26th, February 27th and March 5th


Did anyone go to these? If so what was your impression?

Also:
quote:
Community Forums on recommended zones September 2, 4 and 10

I would encourage anyone with concerns or questions about the new zoning to attend one or more of these forums!

[This message has been edited by bossycowcow (edited 8/20/2014 11:53a).]
Shummy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
"False beyond all reproach" according to what published, controlled (non-anecdotal) research?

First, while it's anecdotal, I personally know someone at the University of Florida that does this sort of research. Heck, my wife participated in a documentary. But, since you want some citations...
quote:
That's because research has shown that a balance of socioeconomic status produces the best educational outcomes, both overall and for students at each socioeconomic level.

http://www.school-diversity.org/
http://tcf.org/bookstore/detail/the-future-of-school-integration
http://www.aft.org/pdfs/americaneducator/winter1213/Kahlenberg.pdf


quote:
Numerous sources—including the famous 1966 Coleman Report, data from the National Assessment of Educational Progress, and a recent meta-analysis—show that poor students at mixed-income schools do better than poor students at high-poverty schools.

http://www.eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/detail?accno=ED012275
http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/DiverseCharterSchools.pdf#page=13


quote:
The research record is also unambiguous about the overall effects of school socioeconomic composition on mathematics outcomes: concentrated school poverty has a negative effect on the mathematics outcomes of all students who attend such institutions. The general literature indicates that children from less advantaged families benefit academically from SES integration while those from the middle class are not hurt, and may benefit from it. (emphasis added)
http://www.nclawreview.org/documents/88/3/mickelson.pdf


quote:
Socioeconomic integration produces benefits beyond those produced by racial integration. Student achievement, as measured by test scores and graduation rates, is lower in segregated minority schools than in desegregated schools. Segregated minority schools also tend to employ less qualified and less experienced teachers, which in turn results in lower student achievement. These schools have fewer educational resources available, such as funding, classroom size, and Advanced Placement classes.

However, race is not the reason why student achievement is lower in segregated minority schools. It is the concentration of poverty among the students that results in low academic achievement. Schools that have a high number of middle-class students fare better for many reasons. For example, performance of individual students depends on the overall level of poverty in the school they attend. Also, wealthier parents advocate for better resources and more funding for their children’s schools. Therefore, being in a school with middle-class students will improve poor students’ academic achievement.

http://www.utexas.edu/law/journals/tjclcr/abstracts/141/Conneely%20Final.pdf


There are many, many more research articles, some of which are cited within the ones I highlighted.
FlyRod
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
You should be thankful you live in a decent community. It could be much worse.
Wildmen03
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
This is reprehensible. What's next? Redrawing district boundaries to affect voting results?
Coach Dub
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The studies you cite describe differences between poor, inner city schools with affluent, suburban schools in different school districts. There will not be the disparities in school quality within CSISD. As such, your cited research is not relevant. When educational opportunities are equal, balancing socio-economic classes has no benefit in educational outcomes.
Shummy
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Your take on the research is mindbogglingly flawed. Whatever, at the end of the day you're going to see it how you want because you've already made up your mind. I've seen it first-hand. I know people who do the research. It exists.
Coach Dub
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Your research is correct if you are comparing outcomes in South Oak Cliff with those in Highland Park. Within a medium-sized, fairly affluent, suburban district such as CSISD, these studies lack validity.

And, yes, CSISD is a suburban district demographically.
Stupe
How long do you want to ignore this user?
S
Still using the maps that look like a preschool color-by-numbers book.
iisanaggie
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's about test scores and money. Balanced SES reduces the chance that one subgroup will bring down the rating for an entire school. I can almost guarantee that if they were not bussing kids around town, there would be a few schools in CSISD that would have trouble getting an acceptable rating.
spike427
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
There are three elementary schools geographically closer to us than the one we're zoned for...including one less than a mile away!
SARATOGA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
There are three elementary schools geographically closer to us than the one we're zoned for...including one less than a mile away!


That's not politics - that's geography.

That's asinine.

And that's a problem.

Rule #1 should be that you go to the school closest to your house, unless you CHOOSE to drive further.

Rule #2 is where the politics can start....

But lets at least BEGIN with common sense.

(I'm fine with bussing inner city kids out, I'm NOT fine with bussing suburbanite kids in......shut down the inner city schools, and build bigger (more diversified) suburban schools, if socially necessary)


But driving PAST one school to reach another is BEYOND FOOLISH.



Something I've never understood. Taxes go into one pot, so funding across schools should be equal. If one high school gets the same funding as the other, what difference does it make what the zoning is ?
1.618
How long do you want to ignore this user?
It is very easy in CSISD to get zoned to your favorite elementary, middle, intermed, or high school. All you have to do is move. They have these maps and you look at the maps and select a residence. Yes, they change the zoning at times but you just move to fit your new preferred school. If it is that important to you, pick up your stuff and move over a few blocks. Don't be a lazy conservative.
SARATOGA
How long do you want to ignore this user?
can't believe I'm responding to this....but everything east of the Highway is zoned to Consol (driving past CSHS).

So not as easy as 'moving a few blocks'

Again, it should be zoned along North/South Lines....everything North of Rock Prairie goes to Consol, everything south goes to CSHS.

1.618
How long do you want to ignore this user?
If you want to be zoned to CS High School, move to Needham Estates or Reatta Meadows or any of the other houses nearby. You have a bazillion choices. Problem solved.
ukbb2003
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The bottom line is, unless more parents start taking an active role in their child's education, the school the child attends is irrelevant. Too many parents rely exclusively on the schools to ensure their child's success.

I realize that not all parents have the ability to sit down with their child and help him/her with homework. However, you can make sure that it is being done and that the child is requesting help if needed (which is available at every school).
DPlainview
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Three Rezoning Public Hearings.

Tuesday, 9/2 7pm at CSISD Board Room
Thursday, 9/4 5pm at Transportation Center
Wednesday 9/10 Noon at Transportation Center

Instead of complaining about something you are uninformed about, some of you should go and hear about why things were done they way they were and then make comments to the Board if you like.

A large committee of CS citizens (n=28) from throughout the city came together to make the best decision about creating new zones for a new elementary school. This decision has to balance a number of competing priorities. They looked at lots of different options all involving where CSISD students geographically live and where demographers expect growth in CS to occur over the next 5 years. It was a room of smart individuals having to make a difficult and complex decision. Having sat on the rezoning committee for the last rezoning I can tell you this is an apolitical process and MUCH more complicated than I envisioned.

Contrary to some of the people on this board seem to believe, you cannot simply draw perfect squares on a map of CS and zone kids that way. You'd have to have elementary schools that could house 1,500 students! (Creek View Elem has the "smallest" footprint of all elementary schools and yet has the largest population of zoned students and is expected to grow the most over the next 5 years - hence the reason for the placement of the new elementary school where it is.)

Stating that a child should simply "be allowed to go to the closest school" is flawed logic and is completely untenable even though it is one of the major priorities of that group when setting zones (especially with elementary schools). You'd have to wave your Harry Potter magic wand and not only move school locations every year, but also make people live exactly where you wanted them to.

I would encourage each of you that REALLY cares (i.e. doesn't simply want to complain on a message board) to attend one or more of the meetings listed above. If you really care and want to be more involved, volunteer at CSISD for one of many different committees and/or speak to one of the board members and tell them you want to be involved in the process they next time this occurs.

Here is one fact for those of you that want to complain about how bad things are: Out of the last four rezoning processes, not ONE parent stood up and asked that their child be moved to a different elementary school. Everyone wants to stay where they are. That's a pretty big testament if you ask me. It's clear in my mind that CSISD keeps building good schools with good people running them.

Be glad you live in a school district that has just been commended AGAIN as one of the top districts in TX for having a record of being OPEN with the public about exactly what they are doing and when - that are ACCURATE in their predictions about taxes and finances - and PLAN EFFECTIVELY for what has been an IMMENSE growth spurt over the last 10 years - the kind of growth mind you that has killed a number of districts with overcrowding and lower educational opportunities for their kids. We are growing at a rate of 4-500 students A YEAR. (In case that doesn't hit home for you - that's almost one full elementary school worth of kids added each year.)



Hammerheadjim
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Instead of busing the students around , why not put money and resources where they are most needed?

Seems a common senses approach to me.

And yes, going to school near your residence does matter. You're invested in the neighborhood, you bought your house based on the types of schools, and you can have a your children go to the same school as their friends in the neighborhood.
veritas47
How long do you want to ignore this user?
Since you were one of the priveleged few selected for the rezoning committee, could you provide an answer to the original question- why did the central planners dictate that socioeconomic balance outrank geography in rezoning considerations? Its included in the CSISD presentation on the WTAW story.

Also, why hasn't our fine city laid out out a comprehensive masterplan to allow for managed growth? It wouldn't take much to sit down with the ISD and lay out plans for growth. But then the developers wouldn't get to continue running things.
DPlainview
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
Instead of busing the students around , why not put money and resources where they are most needed?

Seems a common senses approach to me.


That’s a complicated question. I think the more informed you become, the less "common sense" that approach would be. I would first suggest that you actually look at who is “bussed” at the elementary level instead of simply grabbing on to the term and being opposed to it on principle – it is not a lot of students. Students are “bussed” for any number of reasons at the elementary school level. For some, it’s because even though the distance to their school seems short, they have to cross a hazardous street. For some, the statistics are clear that for low-SES students, school attendance is better when the students are bussed as opposed to when the students are not. For some, it’s because they are bussed to a school that has a program they are likely to need such as the numerous “Head Start” programs we have throughout the district. The list continues… If you are interested I would tell you to go to school board meetings and learn.

quote:
And yes, going to school near your residence does matter. You're invested in the neighborhood, you bought your house based on the types of schools, and you can have a your children go to the same school as their friends in the neighborhood.


Nobody disagrees with this. It is pretty evident by the way the schools are zoned. You will also note that there are no lines randomly drawn down the middle of neighborhoods (although it may seem that way at first glance). Keeping children close to a school is a top priority for the rezoning committee. However, it is not as simple though as drawing a circle around each elementary school and zoning like that. People aren’t distributed that way. See the density map on slide 14 of the presentation.

quote:
Since you were one of the priveleged few selected for the rezoning committee, could you provide an answer to the original question- why did the central planners dictate that socioeconomic balance outrank geography in rezoning considerations? Its included in the CSISD presentation on the WTAW story.


I do not consider myself “privileged” – I was asked to serve and give my time to the committee and I agreed to do so. If you want to be “privileged” too, you should start volunteering yourself – it is not difficult and there are many opportunities to become informed and help out. I was so engaged by the difficult work that I also went through the process of going through the election and am now one of the 7 CSISD school board members.

To answer your question directly – geography is always one of the major considerations of zoning elementary schools. It is simply not the ONLY consideration. Making it so is untenable (i.e. it just doesn’t work). The DENSITY of school children in the city doesn’t map that way. Schools were originally built in places that made the most sense at the time given growth patterns. When growth continues (over 30 years), you can’t just pick up an already built elementary school and move it so it better fits your needs geographically over time (or tear it down and rebuild it for $20 million).

Take a look at slide 14 in the presentation you posted – it is a density map of where kids in our city live. That area in the Barron road/Hwy 6/Hwy 40 triangle is absolutely CRUSHED with school age kids because of the type of housing that is there and more is scheduled. It is my understanding that the committee this year tried to lower the number of elementary schools that these kids are sent to and they simply couldn’t do it. Moving the lines makes the split of kids unworkable. You'd be trying to squeeze 1200 children into a school with a 600 student capacity. As it is, with expected growth, no school should have more than 700 students over the next 4 years. (See slides 15, 16, 28).
Instead of getting hung up on one line – read the ENTIRE presentation to see how many things the committee had to grapple with and why they arrived at this decision. Nowhere does it say that anything OUTRANKED something else – priorities that were given to the committee in addition to SES balance were “Zone for Growth” and maintenance of Title 1 schools. If one thing OUTRANKED something else you wouldn't see the distribution of LOW SES students that you see on slide 31 (those numbers would be much more even).

quote:
Also, why hasn't our fine city laid out out a comprehensive masterplan to allow for managed growth? It wouldn't take much to sit down with the ISD and lay out plans for growth. But then the developers wouldn't get to continue running things.


Are you serious? We have a huge dept within the city that does just that. CSISD works with this group on a continual basis to ensure that they are aware of what is happening. Wow.

**********

As far as future posts, I’m done responding to random people on an internet forum who have motives I am unclear about. As I stated in my first post, I would encourage those people that are truly interested and have questions to attend the public meetings and/or start attending some board meetings - they (and the workshops that preceed them) are all open to the public. If you would like to meet with me personally or have a direct question I can answer for you (not on TexAgs) I would be glad to do so – my email is on the CSISD webpage.


[This message has been edited by mwesson (edited 8/20/2014 7:16p).]
veritas47
How long do you want to ignore this user?
quote:
It's about test scores and money. Balanced SES reduces the chance that one subgroup will bring down the rating for an entire school. I can almost guarantee that if they were not bussing kids around town, there would be a few schools in CSISD that would have trouble getting an acceptable rating.


While I appreciate MWesson responding to this thread, I'm not surprised that he chose not to address this unfortunate truth.

Why have other non-suburb Texas cities been able to plan and manage growth in concert with their ISDs? Amarillo, Lubbock and Tyler come to mind.
befitter
How long do you want to ignore this user?
After living in this district for 20 years I have seen and been affected by multiple rezonings.....and I have NEVER been disappointed with a school my child has attended in CSISD. Thank you for your service Mr. Wesson and your commitment to our school district and it's children.
DPlainview
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
quote:
While I appreciate MWesson responding to this thread, I'm not surprised that he chose not to address this unfortunate truth


Sheesh, it hurts me to continue this and it's against my better judgment, but it kills me the stuff people come up with. Our three schools with the with the highest percentage of SES are ALSO the largest IMPORTERS of students (i.e. students who go to those schools but aren't "zoned" for those schools - these students are generally, but not always, low SES who are attending certain programs). If CSISD's goal was truly to hide test scores of low-performing "groups", I promise it wouldn't do it this way. They also wouldn't publish every single test result every year BY SCHOOL.

Please don't let facts get in the way of a faulty argument though. The only real "money" we are talking about is my maintaining a certain number of Title I schools which is all about KEEPING a certain number of schools with a high percentage of SES students.

I'll be the first to admit that we have some strides to make as a school district in closing what is a real performance gap in African-American test results. It is something that the Nation, the State, and our District is struggling with and I believe that we as a district are making strides.

I'll put CSISD's new Community-Based Accountability Rating System up against anyone in the State in terms of it's thoroughness and high standards. I would also argue that we are more forward-thinking and forthcoming than 99% of other Districts in this regard.



[This message has been edited by mwesson (edited 8/20/2014 9:54p).]
TAMU1990
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
It's not the elementary school that matters - it's the rest of the system.

The Consol feeder has twice as many low income students as the CSHS feeder (approx. 46% to 23%). You can't look at Consol VS CSHS yet because this is the first year both schools are completely split. Of course, Consol's low SES numbers have been rising steadily as the full classes graduate. You have to look at the Intermediate and MS level to know what has been really going on.

Under the new testing guidelines similar socioeconomic schools are group for comparisons. Oakwood and AMCMS and not even in the same comparison pools as Cypress and CSMS. Oakwood is just a hair from qualifying as a Title 1 school - it will happen this year or next. I distinctively remember at the zoning meetings in 2010 that this was a serious concern from parents. However, we were given assurances that this wouldn't happen - where we have a Title 1 zone and the other one isn't. But that is where we are.

Just look at the housing options for each zone. Where are the government housing options in CSHS zone south of Deacon (which I believe is the dividing line)? Apartment complexes south of Deacon? Not many, if any. Where are all of these units? In town, in Consol's zone.

It's not rocket science and we told the board this. People are pissed and know things are already predetermined. No need for public input - it's all for show. Which is why people east of the highway are either 1) moving across the highway; 2) sending their kids to private schools in larger numbers than before.

TAMU1990
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
And Wesson I appreciate your defense, but I lost faith after the display that was the 2010 zoning meetings.

I am moving across the highway into a safe neighborhood that SHOULD BE in the CSHS zone. But the gerrymandering that occurs one can never be sure. You would think being less than a mile from CSHS should be safe.
Tyrion Lannister
How long do you want to ignore this user?
I like how everyone on here talks about "socioeconomic" what ever. This all just a pretty way of saying CSISD thinks that minority kids will bring their federal tax income down because they do worse on the standardized tests.

Instead of spreading out all of your "socioeconomic" challenged kids around, why don't you just fill those schools with your best educators?
Tyrion Lannister
How long do you want to ignore this user?
The money you save on bussing these kids around could be used to increase the teachers' pay at your problem schools.
aggiepaintrain
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
So basically going to school with minorities and people less successful than you is a bad thing ? Got it.

I am sick of hearing how the east siders have it so bad. I am glad my kids will go to diverse schools.

East side represent!


Last Page
Page 1 of 3
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.