It's no secret Buffett was very active in lobbying against Keystone - including lots of campaign dollars. He likes to act objective and benevolent, but he's just as greedy as anyone.

Warren Buffet likes deek flavored lollipops and that's a fact. Look it up.

Would you want a pipeline if you just finished a billion dollar upgrade?

Sorry, more like 5.5 billion.

If you think he protested the pipeline because of that investment in track, just please stop spewing that garbage. Crude by rail makes up maybe 3% of the volume carried by railroads.

Can you link this article? I'm interested in reading about it, mostly to poke the bear of a few uber libtard folks I know.

dustin999 said:

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hurricanejake02 said:

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FYI, In Texas at least, almost all of your electrical providers (both the generators and the t&d guys) and your telephone services are also private companies (as in for-profit corporations, not government entities - most are publicly traded and not privately held).

Common carrier just means that the pipeline is not held exclusively for the use of a single entity. Other entities can contract and use the pipeline.

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Thanks for the explanation, that makes a little more sense. I could see using eminent domain if there actually was a demand for transporting a lot of different materials via this pipeline for the benefit of Americans. However, if it wasn't for the production areas in North Dakota, I can't imagine anyone would care about building this pipeline.

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Well, no kidding. Nobody spends 2+ years and several hundred thousands (if not into the lower millions) of dollars on permitting, design, ROW acquisition, etc. and then several billion more dollars during construction and maintenance on a pipeline to or from an area that is devoid of production.

skdeford said:

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If you think he protested the pipeline because of that investment in track, just please stop spewing that garbage. Crude by rail makes up maybe 3% of the volume carried by railroads.

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http://www.wsj.com/articles/crude-slump-pipeline-expansion-mark-end-of-u-s-oil-train-boom-1469484016

While it was only ~3% of total rail volume, rail was the primary mode of transportation for new fields. BNSF was far and away the biggest carrier for these plays (largely the bakken). If oil hadn't cratered, it would have kept growing with BNSF to be the main beneficiary. Crude was considered a key growth driver for the rail industry over the shirt to medium term.

While that investment has other uses and isn't tied directly to oil, don't pretend like there wasn't a serious benefit for Buffett's company if keystone failed. Moving 30 million + barrels a month moves the needle for even Buffett.

BNSF up here (Bakken area) basically have stopped shipping coal and agriculture to make way for oil (they pay more). While it may only be 3% total, up here it is basically the main thing they ship. Freeing up the rail for everything else will bring the cost of other goods down for everyone (right now, they are either having to pay astronomical prices for rail, or astronomical prices for long haulers, and that slows down most good from reaching the market

maybe i'm mistaken, or maybe its just our local yard. Maybe the people I know who work there dont know what they are talking about.

All I know, is we have a bunch of clients who like to ***** that their cost of shipping has increased so much so that they can no longer afford to ship rail due to the increase in oil up here.

I admittedly know very little about the rail business. What makes you certain that crude by rail is such small potatoes for Buffett/BNSF that it doesn't warrant consideration. I'm not trying to be obtuse, I'd legitimately like to learn something new if you have more info.

okay, so a little research into this area. BNSF's gross revenue off of shipping crude oil was $1.48 billion in 2015. Seems 50% of their crude shipments comes out of the Bakken, meaning $740 million. With their year end revenue totaling around 21 Billion, it seems the shipping of oil makes up more than 3%.

But math isnt my strong suit.

It has fallen off a lot since 2015, and IIRC even in 2015 it was dropping.

Even so, a little math on things that are publicly available indicates that DAPL will move crude volume that would equate to ~500mm a year in rail revenues. BNSF is the only railroad coming out of the Bakken.

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And funny enough, Ag is way up in that area along with other products since oil is way down this year.

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Funny enough, Ag prices suck every where, both crops and livestock. How is this area different?

CanyonAg77 said:

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And funny enough, Ag is way up in that area along with other products since oil is way down this year.

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Funny enough, Ag prices suck every where, both crops and livestock. How is this area different?

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It's not different. Ag is down up here.

There are representatives from tribes all over the country at that protest. It's become more than just a protest over the pipeline for many of them. I have a friend in the Shoshone tribe that tells me part of what makes this protest so important for NAs is that there are old prophesies from a couple different tribes (Lakota being one) of a very large black snake that one day winds its way through the country. When that happens it's supposed to signal the beginning of period of end times level suffering.

That said, I'm sure the posts mentioned above are highly accurate. There are undoubtedly people up there protesting for many different reasons besides the pipeline.

the protest is about extortion and also skdeford is wrong on his crude by rail percentages. way wrong.

BNSF was the largest beneficiary of killing Keystone (not that we actually needed the project).

marcel ledbetter said:

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There are representatives from tribes all over the country at that protest. It's become more than just a protest over the pipeline for many of them. I have a friend in the Shoshone tribe that tells me part of what makes this protest so important for NAs is that there are old prophesies from a couple different tribes (Lakota being one) of a very large black snake that one day winds its way through the country. When that happens it's supposed to signal the beginning of period of end times level suffering.

That said, I'm sure the posts mentioned above are highly accurate. There are undoubtedly people up there protesting for many different reasons besides the pipeline.

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WGAS

marcel ledbetter said:

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There are representatives from tribes all over the country at that protest. It's become more than just a protest over the pipeline for many of them. I have a friend in the Shoshone tribe that tells me part of what makes this protest so important for NAs is that there are old prophesies from a couple different tribes (Lakota being one) of a very large black snake that one day winds its way through the country. When that happens it's supposed to signal the beginning of period of end times level suffering.

That said, I'm sure the posts mentioned above are highly accurate. There are undoubtedly people up there protesting for many different reasons besides the pipeline.

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They should rest easy then. The majority of the pipe being used is green. This is all about money, plain and simple.

Gotcha there.


Again, there are literally tens if not hundreds of thousands of other pipelines all over this country.

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there are old prophesies from a couple different tribes (Lakota being one) of a very large black snake that one day winds its way through the country. When that happens it's supposed to signal the beginning of period of end times level suffering.

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Clearly this means the construction of the Keystone pipeline will somehow trigger that Yellowstone Super Volcano to explode like I saw on National Geographic.

You didn't bring inside info. At all. You tried to pump yourself up and basically said, "trust me guys, it's not like that. I know stuff." Without actually giving any info or even indicating the "real" reason. Then got condescending and told people to basically piss off and enjoy reading the lies in CNN?

Warren Buffett is a businessman. And the Keystone would have seriously affected his business. The only inside info you could have would be him or someone from his circle saying it was for environmental reasons, or something like that. In which case, it's a PR move so he doesn't get called out.

It's not a pissing match. It's common sense. I'm not going to do the economic impact analysis for you but it is definitely material to BNSF.

skdeford said:

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Yes, based on what I have been told. If you don't believe me fine, I can't speak for Warren himself. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you guys, just not worth my time. My mistake for bringing information that is not publicly available, lesson learned.

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If you have been around here long enough, you would understand. There have been many yahoos come here and spout about insider information and how close they are to "top sources" when they are just flapping their gums to look important.

skdeford said:

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I'm honestly not trying make myself look big or awesome or anything, just trying to give some good Ags some interesting info. I was in meetings last week with our reps to NA tribes and that is what they are telling us.

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I still maintain that I don't know about rail and am interested in learning. So far you haven't provided much interesting info. You keep saying "what it isn't," but haven't provided much of anything that helps us understand "what it is."

That's why I engaged in this conversation on the OB where I would usually run away on the politics board. Usually here you can learn something.

Canyon makes his living farming and may know a thing or two about the market. He asked a legit question and you just offhandedly dismissed his comment.

It's kind of hard to discuss crude by rail in any sort of detail without breaking rules. The dollars tend to be material, the Bakken is volatile, crude by rail is the swing capacity, and there is a small number of players transporting crude at scale. Those things together make most discussion of impacts too revealing for a public forum.

What is against the rules about talking about shipping crude by rail?

Something I am not privy to most definitely.

There is an opportunity to be comparing apples and oranges here. Ag is in the ****ter everywhere with regard to commodity prices and by extension profitability, but that does not necessarily mean production is down. I don't have the Yearbook of Ag at my fingertips but I did google ND corn crop and the first hit said 2016 was big crop BY production. That means elevator space has to be made and commodity has to be moved. I'm not sure we are all on the same wavelength, but I just hit the high spots on the thread.

dustin999 said:

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histag10 said:

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Try living in the area, knowing what a crock of **** this whole protest is, and then having friends (intelligent friends at that) saying how we are all revictimizing the NAs and taking their land.

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I actually think this whole pipeline is ridiculous. They're using eminent domain so that a private company can pump oil to a refinery and sell it on the global market? How does that qualify for eminent domain?

I think this is what pisses people off about big oil companies, the fact that they get in bed with politicians and essentially take land from honest citizens all in the name of creating jobs. But that is not a valid reason for eminent domain.

I don't know the ownership or particulars of the Sioux tribe in Standing Rock, but after reading up, it does appear they're using eminent domain to take land from people in Iowa. I have a real problem with that...

I'm as conservative as they come, but just because we tend to vote for R's doesn't mean the oil companies are always ethical (or even legal) in everything they do.

I have no problem with them building the pipeline, but they need to buy the land needed for the pipeline without forcing people via the government to sell.

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I didn't see your response to me earlier. I agree that they need to purchase easements for the land; however it is my understanding that the use of eminent domain in Iowa is for a select few land owners who are refusing to sign the easements. Keep in mind, the law suit over eminent domain was originally filed by at least 2 land owners before the route was finalized- which is part of why it the judge has ruled against it. Part of the rub is that they are being offered less than land owners in other states (the amount, to my knowledge, was determined based on land value)

The actual use of eminent domain is a bit trickier. The pipeline is arguing it can use eminent domain because it provides economic development (providing between 2000 and 4000 jobs in iowa) and qualifies as a utility (eventual petroleum products and gasoline). They are using the ruling of Kelo v. New London.

People in Iowa are contesting that the ruling applies to them, because it can't be proven that the gasoline produced from the crude will ever make its way back to Iowa.

All this to say, it's a complicated matter on who's in the legal right. Though I'm not a fan of eminent domain, it appears the pipeline has reason to use it if the landowners are refusing a reasonable offer of easement.

Here's facts you won't hear on the MSM

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/energy-environment/296926-on-the-dakota-access-pipeline-lets-stick-to-the-facts

OnlyForNow said:

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What is against the rules about talking about shipping crude by rail?

Something I am not privy to most definitely.

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Speculation is fine, but if you have insider information you can get in trouble.

I just realized all evidence of DeBoss on here is gone.

The connection between Standing Rock and West Texas:
http://therivardreport.com/outraged-protesters-confront-pipeline-ceo-kelcy-warren/