I've always have a skeptical mind about such things, and I would call myself agnostic.

There's an illusionist in the U.K. who's been around for years now called, Derren Brown. He's done some amazingly interesting shows over the years. He's an atheist and not long ago investigated evangelical faith healers around the world, which led him into his latest show that was shot live at the Palace Theatre in London.

Some might find that the show 'mocks' religion, and so if you think you're going to be offended or could be sensitive to the theatrics of him sometimes in the show impersonating a faith healer then maybe best not to watch. However, I found the show very interesting as it goes to show how powerful our own minds are when it comes to our wellbeing and general outlook.

Here's the link, it's just over an hour long:

If you want to look for his older show which investigates faith healing, it's called 'Miracles for Sale.'

Just to be clear, I am not out to make anyone feel bad about their religious beliefs, I just thought that some of you might find this an interesting experiment.

It's manipulation.

Interesting video. I wish he explained how the tricks work.

I watched for over twenty minutes and don't know what an English magician has to do with religion or philosophy.

He has nothing to do with religion and is an atheist, so the entire point of the show at least to me, was how powerful suggestion, belief, and positive thought can be.

Derren Brown has always spoken a little more deeply and included history, philosophy (sometimes), and psychology in his shows than other TV 'magicians.'

He doesn't just pull rabbits out of hats and produce a bunch of flowers from the sleeve of his jacket. Did you only give it 20 minutes? What stopped you? Were you offended?

I was not offended, I just expected something related to miracles or religion. I found him entertaining, but of no value when considering my beliefs.

Thank you for clarifying.

He performs faith healing towards the end in the same manner as many evangelical preachers. It's only relevant if you believe in that sort of thing.

That one gave me a audible ugh. I still want to know how some of the cold reading is done.

AstroAg17 said:

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You should have mentioned that in your OP.

The relevant part starts around 36 minutes. I had originally watched ~35 minutes before I gave up.

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Apologies for not mentioning that. I just happened to think it was an interesting show and might have been of interest here. I've never really believed in miracles myself, but know many people do, and I have always wondered about how much that belief played into things (not including things we can't always explain so therefore people think, must be miracles).

My uncle used to talk about miracles and how skeptical he was. He grew up in an Irish Catholic family but ended up becoming an atheist. He used to say "miracles are always presented as someone who's been 'cured' of cancer or an illness, etc, but you never see someone who's lost a limb, suddenly have it grow back." I'd have to agree with that.

Quote:

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I believe that miracles have happened and continue to happen.

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Examples? Just curious.

Quote:

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He used to say "miracles are always presented as someone who's been 'cured' of cancer or an illness, etc, but you never see someone who's lost a limb, suddenly have it grow back." I'd have to agree with that.

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Miracle of Calanda

while perhaps not the most defensible/undeniable of examples, I like this one because it happened at my church, in a Sunday school class that still exists, and it was recorded because they record all their Sunday morning lessons.

story:
https://millertheology.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/the-miracle-moment-20-years-later/

TLDR: Pastor gets vocal chord damage due to flue complications, has to step down due to it. 2.5 years later, voice is healed in the middle of teaching a sunday school class on healing.

recording of the event:

( you can start at about 1:15 if you don't want to listen to the whole thing.)

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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Quote:

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He used to say "miracles are always presented as someone who's been 'cured' of cancer or an illness, etc, but you never see someone who's lost a limb, suddenly have it grow back." I'd have to agree with that.

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Miracle of Calanda

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Hold on a second. That's not the example you want to use as evidence is it? An example from 1640, 376 years ago. It says...

The Miracle of Calanda is an event that allegedly took place in Calanda, Spain in 1640, according to 17th century documents. The documents state that a young farmer's leg was restored to him after having been amputated two and a half years earlier.

I read this bit further down the link...

Alternative Explanations[edit]

Author Brian Dunning has done extensive research and claims that "there is no documentation or witness accounts confirming his leg was ever gone." He presents a non-miraculous explanation that Pellicer's leg did not develop gangrene during the five days at the hospital at Valencia. He spent the next 50 days convalescing, during which he was unable to work. He turned to begging, and discovered that having a broken leg was a boon. After his leg had mended, he decided that if a broken leg helped, a missing leg would be better. Traveling to Zaragoza, he bound his right foreleg up behind his thigh and for two years played the part of an amputee beggar. Later, back at his parents home in Calanda, forced to sleep in a different bed, his ruse was discovered. The story of the miracle was a way to save face. Dunning asserts "that no evidence exists that his leg was ever amputated or that he was even treated at all at the hospital in Zaragoza other than his own word. He named three doctors there, but for some reason there is no record of their having been interviewed by either the delegation or the trial."[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_of_Calanda#cite_note-3][3][/url]


That to me is zero evidence of someone's leg growing back!

BlackGoldAg2011 said:

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while perhaps not the most defensible/undeniable of examples, I like this one because it happened at my church, in a Sunday school class that still exists, and it was recorded because they record all their Sunday morning lessons.

story:
https://millertheology.wordpress.com/2013/01/20/the-miracle-moment-20-years-later/

TLDR: Pastor gets vocal chord damage due to flue complications, has to step down due to it. 2.5 years later, voice is healed in the middle of teaching a sunday school class on healing.

recording of the event:

( you can start at about 1:15 if you don't want to listen to the whole thing.)

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To me that's still no evidence that it was a miracle. It's just not easily explainable but that doesn't mean it was a miracle. Only a small amount of research (and I'm no Dr shows that the vocal chords are part of the peripheral nervous system which are in fact able to regenerate and heal naturally. Per this article, it's only the central nervous system that isn't able to heal in the same way.

https://www.boundless.com/physiology/textbooks/boundless-anatomy-and-physiology-textbook/appendix-b-development-and-aging-of-the-organ-systems-1417/development-of-the-nervous-system-1510/regeneration-of-nerve-fibers-1513-11122/

So some alleged miracle from almost 400 years ago, and then a pastor that could talk again to me with a scientific and logical mind is absolutely no evidence of any miracle. I understand peoples faith and of course people of faith WANT to believe in this stuff, but there's never been any clear proof of it, just some things that are not easily explainable or are hearsay. This, just like a ouija board, has never been recreated under laboratory/scientific conditions.

Again, its fine for you to believe what you want, but for me....I just don't see it. Tell you what...one of you religious folks...cut of a limb with a chainsaw and do a bit of praying. That would take some faith but hey....fingers crossed!

It would help this discussion if we had a definition of "miracle" as a reference point.

Growing a limb back.
Modern scientifically witnessing parting of the Red Sea or some Hippy looking bloke walking on water.
TexAgs Politics Board able to create a thread without the word 'lib' being used.
Tottehnam Hotspur winning a league title this century.
My boss not thinking he knows better than everyone else, 100% of the time.
Me being able to sleep on a Transatlantic flight (just once pretty please).
My wife not mimicking a moth to the light anytime she walks by an expensive shoe store.
My mother-in-law not acting like daughter of Satan and possibly being able to be pleasant to be around even if it's just once every few years.

There. I think I've covered most of them.

You forgot an Aggie football college championship.