Is that so? I thought only Catholics and orthodox needed to earn their salvation
Hillary says as a Methodist salvation requires faith and works
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Last: 7 yr ago by Win At Life
Flagged for trolling
Or you could use your words to create an argument
Nah
Your thought is erroneous.
When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
I'm sure Hillary's understanding of salvation is VERY nuanced.
'I warn you, my children, not to be so ready to mock, or judge, the acts of other people.
'For we have often seen the sin of the fornicator, but his repentance, which he made in secret, we did not see, and we may have seen somebody steal, but we know nothing of the groanings and tears which he has offered to God. We still think of him as we saw him, a thief, a fornicator or a perjuror, but in the sight of God his secret repentance and confession have been accepted, and in His eyes he is honorable.'
St John the Merciful
'For we have often seen the sin of the fornicator, but his repentance, which he made in secret, we did not see, and we may have seen somebody steal, but we know nothing of the groanings and tears which he has offered to God. We still think of him as we saw him, a thief, a fornicator or a perjuror, but in the sight of God his secret repentance and confession have been accepted, and in His eyes he is honorable.'
St John the Merciful
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When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
One of the things that attracted me to our church is that they organize their messages, sermons, and frankly the entire church on the premise that nearly everyone in there is already a Christian and has actually reads and studies on their own, rather than a non-chrisian or "baby" christian.
When I return to the church I grew up at... I'm generally bored because they seem to orient themselves to those 1 or 2 visitors who has no idea what any of this is about.
In this case I think what you're observing is that praxis flows from theology. When the bulk of the theological import is on the altar call, and the stuff after that is more or less irrelevant (once saved always saved etc) it only makes sense to have the praxis focus on the altar call.
Lex orandi lex credendi is real.
Lex orandi lex credendi is real.
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One of the things that attracted me to our church is that they organize their messages, sermons, and frankly the entire church on the premise that nearly everyone in there is already a Christian and has actually reads and studies on their own, rather than a non-chrisian or "baby" christian.
When I return to the church I grew up at... I'm generally bored because they seem to orient themselves to those 1 or 2 visitors who has no idea what any of this is about.
it's a tough go running a church. Often times, your strategic decisions can cause you to select for a certain type of person, rather than being truly open. Whether it's right or wrong is up to you and how you define what a church should be. For me, I'd rather churches skew towards the "low end", as they need the most help.
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When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
The cool part is that our actions shouldn't be any different regardless of our view on salvation: Follow Christ. I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
This is actually very similar to the way John Wesley writes about salvation. While Wesley (and Methodism to answer the OP) believes that only faith through grace is required for salvation, the bulk of his writings on salvation, faith, and grace are about what happens after justification. His main focus in discussing salvation is holiness and sanctification, not just justification. Salvation, to Wesley, was not a one-time individual event, but the personal and social act of God through God's church.Quote:
When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
Having those things is great, but often I fail to see churches pressing their members to participate. I've seen far too many who are content with members showing up Sunday mornings and that's it.Frok said:RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
I think this is true. It happens in conversations with non-christian or non-religious people as well. We talk past each other because we have different conceptions of what we mean by "God".k2aggie07 said:
Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
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How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
Many of these serve the conversion side or only seek to alleviate earthly struggles...rather than being part of the process of becoming Christ-like.
For me, it's demonstrated like this: I have heard many many sermons on why I need to accept Christ as Lord. I have heard almost no sermons on why I need to become like Christ. Most of it can be reduced down to "if you do what jesus does, your life wont suck as much".
At some point, your faith formation falls largely on you.
I'm not sure I agree with your first statement. As I said, praxis is an outflow from theology. You are more or less suggesting that disparate soteriology is irrelevant to the believer... But it should follow that our actions are a direct reflections of our beliefs about soteriology. Why else would we bother? We do what we do because we are trying to work out our salvation. We come to Christ and ask "what must I do to be saved?". If the answer is different, our actions would be as well.diehard03 said:Quote:
When I converted I felt like my understanding of salvation had become significantly more nuanced. I think many evangelists stand theologically back-to-back with the orthodox. They focus on the point up to becoming a Christian. Most of orthodoxy is spent on life in the faith after that point. Much of the difficulty in language between the two groups is because each thinks the other is talking about the part they're looking at.
For many Protestant sects becoming a Christian is the end of their soteriology. For the Orthodox it is the beginning.
The idea of "salvation" is dramatically different between the two as well.
The cool part is that our actions shouldn't be any different regardless of our view on salvation: Follow Christ. I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
Following Christ will have as many different definitions as there are variants in soteriology, I think.
I would even take it a step farther. "Why" should be followed by "how".
Orthodoxy, right belief, is "why". Orthopraxis is "how".
Orthodoxy, right belief, is "why". Orthopraxis is "how".
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At some point, your faith formation falls largely on you.
I completely agree with this statement. This is why I prefer to have the church focus on the unsaved/beginners.
Edit: I can see how my comments might be talking out of both sides of my mouth. I prefer that churchs focus their sermons/resources at that level of believer...but still frame it inside a bigger process that ends at jesus rather than baptism.
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Following Christ will have as many different definitions as there are variants in soteriology, I think.
I am oversimplifying "actions" by saying that the action is to follow Christ. Whether you believe OSAS or not, your action is still the same: Follow Christ.
Yes, we can bicker on the "how", but I dont know that everyone's "how" changes that much. From what I see, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran...even dirty non-denoms...following Jesus looks the same: sacrifice for others, generous beyond societal accepted levels, prayer, serving, etc. Maybe we rank things differently, but I dont' know how important that is.
I don't believe I agree. Having been both baptist and Orthodox, the how is very different.diehard03 said:Quote:
Following Christ will have as many different definitions as there are variants in soteriology, I think.
I am oversimplifying "actions" by saying that the action is to follow Christ. Whether you believe OSAS or not, your action is still the same: Follow Christ.
Yes, we can bicker on the "how", but I dont know that everyone's "how" changes that much. From what I see, Orthodox, Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran...even dirty non-denoms...following Jesus looks the same: sacrifice for others, generous beyond societal accepted levels, prayer, serving, etc. Maybe we rank things differently, but I dont' know how important that is.
Sacrifice for others, being generous, whatnot... these are results, fruits.
It becomes chicken and egg and the fruit becomes the seed for the next step, yes... but I don't think the approach is the same.
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I don't believe I agree.
I'm shocked. One day, I'll get you. You won't know when or where...but one day, you'll agree.
It really only makes sense that right belief would lead to right action.
And that wrong belief would lead to wrong action.
And that if right action follows accidentally from wrong belief, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether we have right belief or not.
And that wrong belief would lead to wrong action.
And that if right action follows accidentally from wrong belief, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether we have right belief or not.
Sorry. A lot of it is just differences in vocabulary, and I try to be really precise when I talk about these things.Part the difference here is because the modern approach is so heavily action oriented - transactional - vs being oriented - transformational. It's not about what we do but who we are, but who we are is both driven by what we do and drives what we do.
I would suggest that the more accurate way to look at it is that the proper or true belief (orthodoxy) and the proper or Christian manner by which we should live our lives (orthopraxis) are mutually self-supporting, and one cannot be achieved without the other. They inform and grow each other. When we first begin we are on spiritual milk, but our devotion to orthopraxis doesn't require strong understanding or even strong yet faith, but trust, obedience, and devotion. Adhering to this praxis is the testing of our faith, which produces perseverance... and "by your endurance you will gain your lives". At the end of the day, orthodoxy and orthopraxis become one.
Sinning is a lack of faith, and a lack of knowledge. If we had perfect knowledge of the Truth we would not sin, but repentance leads to a knowledge of the truth (2 Tim 2:25). Repentance, of course, is the eternal bedrock of orthopraxis. If we could see the truth perfectly, we would have no taste for anything else any more. By faith we devote ourselves to praxis, and by praxis we arrive to true knowledge, and true knowledge is the perfection of the faith we started with.
St Peter shows this clearly when he says [comments mine obviously]:
To me it is interesting that St Peter tells us to apply diligence to things that are both actions and attributes. Then he says they are qualities that should increase -- not actions that should increase, but attributes. Actions and attributes become blurred.Quote:
His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness [orthopraxis], through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence [orthodoxy]. For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises [orthopraxis], so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature [literal result of orthopraxis], having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust [salvation]. Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence [orthopraxis], in your faith [orthodoxy] supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge [orthodoxy], and in your knowledge, self-control [orthopraxis], and in your self-control, perseverance [orthopraxis], and in your perseverance, godliness [orthopraxis], and in your godliness, brotherly kindness [orthopraxis], and in your brotherly kindness, love [salvation]. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge [orthodoxy] of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins. Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent [orthoparxis] to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things [orthopraxis], you will never stumble; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you [salvation].
Therefore, I will always be ready to remind you of these things, even though you already know them , and have been established in the truth which is present with you [orthodoxy].
St Paul similarly shows the same mixture, but in a less overt way:
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Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its practices, and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him...
True knowledge - orthodoxy - is the outcome of our renewal, and this being renewed is a contrast to old practices (in this case literally praxis, praxesin). The renewal then is our orthopraxis.
Fun side note, Matthew 16:27 says we will each be judged according our deeds, our praxin.
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It really only makes sense that right belief would lead to right action.
And that wrong belief would lead to wrong action.
And that if right action follows accidentally from wrong belief, that doesn't mean it doesn't matter whether we have right belief or not.
You can't have sentence 3 with sentence 1 and 2. Unfortunately, this logic leads to a lack of grace and the ultimately leads to condemnation to anyone who doesn't believe exactly the way you do down to the last letter.
In the end, we should get off this roller coaster. I think the 3 of us know where we stand.
Does what I described lead to a lack of grace in your opinion?
I think grace leads to true knowledge. Because Christ is true knowledge, that necessarily converges to a unity. But these are common scriptural themes in both St Peter and St Pauls writing.
I think grace leads to true knowledge. Because Christ is true knowledge, that necessarily converges to a unity. But these are common scriptural themes in both St Peter and St Pauls writing.
The United Methodist church disagrees with her.
From the Articles of Religion:
Article IX Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.
Article X Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.
From the Confession of Faith:
Article IX Justification and Regeneration
We believe we are never accounted righteous before God through our works or merit, but that penitent sinners are justified or accounted righteous before God only by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Article X Good Works
We believe good works are the necessary fruits of faith and follow regeneration but they do not have the virtue to remove our sins or to avert divine judgment. We believe good works, pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, spring from a true and living faith, for through and by them faith is made evident.
From the Articles of Religion:
Article IX Of the Justification of Man
We are accounted righteous before God only for the merit of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, by faith, and not for our own works or deservings. Wherefore, that we are justified by faith, only, is a most wholesome doctrine, and very full of comfort.
Article X Of Good Works
Although good works, which are the fruits of faith, and follow after justification, cannot put away our sins, and endure the severity of God's judgment; yet are they pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, and spring out of a true and lively faith, insomuch that by them a lively faith may be as evidently known as a tree is discerned by its fruit.
From the Confession of Faith:
Article IX Justification and Regeneration
We believe we are never accounted righteous before God through our works or merit, but that penitent sinners are justified or accounted righteous before God only by faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Article X Good Works
We believe good works are the necessary fruits of faith and follow regeneration but they do not have the virtue to remove our sins or to avert divine judgment. We believe good works, pleasing and acceptable to God in Christ, spring from a true and living faith, for through and by them faith is made evident.
Here's Hillary Clinton's quote.
" I am not Catholic, I'm a Methodist, but one of the things we share is a belief that in order to achieve salvation, we need both faith and good works."
" I am not Catholic, I'm a Methodist, but one of the things we share is a belief that in order to achieve salvation, we need both faith and good works."
RetiredAg said:Having those things is great, but often I fail to see churches pressing their members to participate. I've seen far too many who are content with members showing up Sunday mornings and that's it.Frok said:RetiredAg said:Agreed!Quote:
I also think that evangelical churches spend far too much time racing people to the baptistery and forgetting about them after that.
How so? Most churches have life groups, bible studies, counseling, outreach activities, mission trips, etc. What do you think the church needs to do?
Every church I've been to presses you to get involved. You can't force participation.
Romans 2:6: For he will render to every man according to his works
She is as stupid as XXXX. John Wesley was convinced of salvation by grace through faith after reading Luther's commentary on the book of Romans. She is the left wing version of Mormonism.
Have you ever read Wesley's encounter with the Moravian missionaries in the midst of a storm? It's awesome.UTExan said:
She is as stupid as XXXX. John Wesley was convinced of salvation by grace through faith after reading Luther's commentary on the book of Romans. She is the left wing version of Mormonism.