Subjective vs. Objective Interpretation of Scripture

12,423 Views | 159 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by AgLiving06
Achilles Rhyme
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Lately I've been thinking about this idea and I was curious to get everyone's thoughts on the same.

Say for example, you're reading a particular chapter or verse in the Bible; it might speak to you in a way that's quite different from others. You might see a much nuanced take that's oft forgotten or not commonly accepted. Or, it's very much your own and it provides you comfort in what that means to you at that point in your life.

So here's my question - I've come across people in life who have different takes on the same chapter (like I mentioned). And that's enabled them to interpret the Scripture in their own terms. Does the Scripture allow for subjective reasoning? If yes, it does allow room for misinterpretation. If the answer is no; where do you seek the so-called objective reasoning from? Is it from your church, your pastors? In that scenario, since they're still humans with a theological bent; can they be completely accepted for their thoughts/views on Scripture? I mean they also run the risk of being incorrect in their interpretations.

Sorry for the long winded post. I think this idea also extends into the whole debate of prosperity gospel which takes a very specific approach to understanding the teachings of Jesus.
Seamaster
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AG
Quote:

If the answer is no; where do you seek the so-called objective reasoning from?
This question is ultimately led me into the Catholic Church, and many other people I know.

This is a fairly good article on the topic:

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/solo-scriptura-by-bryan-cross/

God Bless!
FTACo88-FDT24dad
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AG
Seamaster said:

Quote:

If the answer is no; where do you seek the so-called objective reasoning from?
This question is ultimately led me into the Catholic Church, and many other people I know.

This is a fairly good article on the topic:

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/solo-scriptura-by-bryan-cross/

God Bless!


That is the most well written, cogent piece I've ever read on this subject. Thanks for sharing.
Jim Hogg is angry
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AG
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Peter 1:20)
Drum5343
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Nm
Drum5343
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AG
What an awesome link!

Quote from the article:

Quote:

If we proclaim to the unbelieving world that we have the one true and final revelation from God, why should they listen to us if we cannot agree about what that revelation actually says?
Drum5343
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AG
Seamaster said:

Quote:

If the answer is no; where do you seek the so-called objective reasoning from?
This question is ultimately led me into the Catholic Church, and many other people I know.

This is a fairly good article on the topic:

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/solo-scriptura-by-bryan-cross/

God Bless!


Maybe I'm a brainwashed, backwards Catholic...

But how could anyone read those arguments and still be Protestant? What a demolition of sola scriptura.
BusterAg
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AG
It's easy. I just don't trust that institutions will always have the best answer.

One small critique of the article is that it presupposes that the only way to analyze the Bible is to look only within the pages of the Bible, and not perform the type of contextual and literary analysis that the Bible deserves.

Granted, even with that, you are still going to have differences in opinion.

My major critique is that the article presupposes that this leads to very important problems.

I found this piece to be on point:
Quote:

According to Mathison, when Christians do not follow the authoritative guidance of the Church in their interpretation of Scripture, not only do they fall into various kinds of errors, but Scripture itself, as he shows by various examples, necessarily ceases to function as their authority. In one example, he refers to Reformed theologian Robert Reymond's call for "an abandonment of the Nicene Trinitarian concept in favor of a different Trinitarian concept," referring to Reymond's rejection of the Nicene Creed's teaching that Christ is eternally begotten.12 According to Mathison, this shows that for proponents of solo scriptura the Nicene Creed has no real authority.13

Mathison also refers to Edward Fudge, who defends annihilationism, as another example of someone operating according to solo scriptura. Fudge claims that Scripture "is the only unquestionable or binding source of doctrine on this or any subject."14 The fact that annihilationism is heterodox does not deter him; he believes that his own interpretation of Scripture is correct on this matter, and that here the Church has been wrong. In addition to these examples, Mathison identifies Ed Stevens, who defends hyperpreterism, as another proponent of solo scriptura. Mathison quotes Stevens as writing:

Even if the creeds were to clearly and definitively stand against the preterist view (which they don't), it would not be an overwhelming problem since they have no real authority anyway. They are no more authoritative than our best opinions today, but they are valued because of their antiquity. . . . We must not take the creeds any more seriously than we do the writings and opinions of men like Luther, Zwingli, Calvin, the Westminster Assembly, Campbell, Rushdoony, or C.S. Lewis.15
The biggest danger, this author seems to suggest, is that we might come to different, conflicting opinions on stuff like annihilationism, the nature of the Trinity, and preterism.

Who cares? Why can we not live in community even if we conclude different speculations on metaphysical nuances of a transcendental God which we have no ability to fully comprehend anyways? The meat of the gospel is still there, and it is pretty self interpretive.

One of the great lessons that Jesus brought to our attention is that man has the tendency to focus on the nuances to the exclusion of the important principles. An authoritative hierarchy that decides who is right and who is wrong on these nuances just encourages this problem. Jesus often deflected questions about the bright line of the law on tricky subjects by referencing the importance of Godly principles.
Quote:

"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spicesmint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the lawjustice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. - Matt 23


Quote:

At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."

He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated breadwhich was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. Or haven't you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath." - Matt 12
In conclusion, I don't think that this is as bad of a problem as the article makes out. Sure, people have a tendency to divide, and that is bad. And, you will always have some kook like we have here in Houston who is going to twist stuff to his own benefit. But, adopting an authoritative structure to dictate "correct" answers of metaphysical questions to me seems not to align with the actual teachings of Jesus Christ, who emphasized the the important things are the core principles, which are hard enough to do that differences of opinion on most of these nuances don't really deserve our attention.

Not that I dislike the Catholic Church. MVP of all charitable institutions of all time. I generally love Catholics.
Drum5343
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AG
Quote:

The biggest danger, this author seems to suggest, is that we might come to different, conflicting opinions on stuff like annihilationism, the nature of the Trinity, and preterism.

Who cares? Why can we not live in community even if we conclude different speculations on metaphysical nuances of a transcendental God which we have no ability to fully comprehend anyways? The meat of the gospel is still there, and it is pretty self interpretive.
What about the reality of the Eucharist? Is that important? Either Catholics are right about the Eucharist, or we are the worst idolaters in the history of Christianity. Who has the authority to tell us what the Eucharist is? We might say 'the Church', but as the author points out, what if our interpretation of Scripture's account of the Eucharist differs from the Church's? Why should we trust the Church over our own conscience on this matter?


Or what about the efficaciousness of baptism? Or the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation?

Doctrine matters.

"We do not really want a religion that is right where we are right. What we want is a religion that is right where we are wrong." - Chesterton
Zobel
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AG
Similar response regarding Mathison's book from an Orthodox perspective.

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2014/10/04/protestants-churchless-tradition-sola-vs-solo-scriptura/

Drum5343
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AG
Sorry, last comment for now.

And even if you hold that the Eucharist or the sacraments are not essential to [your own interpretation of] the gospel, what about moral issues? How are we to adjudicate these disputes?

Take abortion for example. The RCC is the only major western church that maintains the belief that it is an intrinsic wrong. Nearly every other denomination has relativised it to each individual.

How are we to decide who is right? Each denomination has made their own interpretation of scripture on their own authority. Who's authority is correct? Who has the authority to decide on moral issues?

And furthermore, what are we to do if we disagree with a Church's decision on the morality of abortion? What if our consciences cannot submit to the authority of a particular ecclesial community? Are we our own arbiters of moral truth?

Do we think Jesus would have left us completely adrift on even the most basic of moral and theological issues with no authority other than our own conscience?
Tom Kazansky 2012
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AG
This is all well and good, but according to the Gospel, Jesus did grant authority to Peter as the Rock. The foundation on which he will build his Church.

"You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

Catholic Answers has great takes on this as well:

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/whats-your-authority

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/origins-of-peter-as-pope

Zobel
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AG
The modern Roman Catholic interpretation of that passage is far from consensus.

Many Fathers write of St Peter's confession in Matthew 16 is that when Christ said "this rock", this was referring to St Peter's confession, not his person. Others write that the Rock is Christ. Still others suggest that it was St Peter's person, but only as a representative of the Church.

St John Chrysostom:
Quote:

therefore He added this, And I say unto you, You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church; that is, on the faith of his confession.

He speaks from this time lowly things, on his way to His passion, that He might show His humanity. For He that hath built His church upon Peter's confession, and has so fortified it, that ten thousand dangers and deaths are not to prevail over it...
St Hilary:
Quote:

Thus our one immovable foundation, our one blissful rock of faith, is the confession from Peter's mouth, Thou art the Son of the living God.
St Augustine:
Quote:

Now this name of Peter was given him by the Lord, and in a figure, that he should signify the Church. For seeing that Christ is the rock (Petra), Peter is the Christian people. For the rock (Petra) is the original name. Therefore Peter is so called from the rock; not the rock from Peter; as Christ is not called Christ from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. 'Therefore,' he saith, 'Thou art Peter; and upon this Rock' which Thou hast confessed, upon this rock which Thou hast acknowledged, saying, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God, will I build My Church;' that is upon Myself, the Son of the living God, 'will I build My Church.' I will build thee upon Myself, not Myself upon Thee...For men who wished to be built upon men, said, 'I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas,' who is Peter. But others who did not wish to built upon Peter, but upon the Rock, said, 'But I am of Christ.' And when the Apostle Paul ascertained that he was chosen, and Christ despised, he said, 'Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?' And, as not in the name of Paul, so neither in the name of Peter; but in the name of Christ: that Peter might be built upon the Rock, not the Rock upon Peter. This same Peter therefore who had been by the Rock pronounced 'blessed,' bearing the figure of the Church.
St Ambrose
Quote:

Faith, then, is the foundation of the Church, for it was not said of Peter's flesh, but of his faith, that 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.'
St Gregory the Theologian
Quote:

The warmth of our praises does not extend to Simon insofar as he was a catcher of fish; rather it extends to his firm faith, which is at the same time the foundation of the whole Church.
St Jerome
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The one foundation which the apostolic architect laid is out Lord Jesus Christ. Upon this stable and firm foundation, which has itself been laid on solid ground, the Church of Christ is built. . . For the Church was founded upon a rock . . . upon this rock the Lord established his Church; and the apostle Peter received his name from this rock.
St John of Damascus

Quote:

This rock was Christ, the incarnate Word of God, the Lord, for Paul clearly teaches us: "The rock was Christ".
St Cyril of Alexandria
Quote:

And I tell you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' The surname, I believe, calls nothing other than the unshakable and very firm faith of the disciple 'a rock,' upon which the Church was founded and made firm and remains continually impregnable even with respect to the very gates of Hell.

Jesus said to divine Peter: 'You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church.' Now by the word 'rock', Jesus indicated, I think, the immovable faith of the disciple.
BusterAg
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AG
Drum5343 said:

What about the reality of the Eucharist? Is that important? Either Catholics are right about the Eucharist, or we are the worst idolaters in the history of Christianity. Who has the authority to tell us what the Eucharist is? We might say 'the Church', but as the author points out, what if our interpretation of Scripture's account of the Eucharist differs from the Church's? Why should we trust the Church over our own conscience on this matter?
The only thing that really matters is faith in Jesus Christ expressed through love.

Communion is commanded, and we should do it. But, whether or not I believe that the communion is somehow transformed in my mouth has no impact on my faith or spiritual fruit. YMMV.

I think that most of the Catholic traditions are beautiful. The only thing that really bothers me about the Catholic faith is the belief that not being a Catholic is somehow bad or sinful.
BusterAg
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Drum5343 said:

Sorry, last comment for now.

And even if you hold that the Eucharist or the sacraments are not essential to [your own interpretation of] the gospel, what about moral issues? How are we to adjudicate these disputes?

Take abortion for example. The RCC is the only major western church that maintains the belief that it is an intrinsic wrong. Nearly every other denomination has relativised it to each individual.

How are we to decide who is right? Each denomination has made their own interpretation of scripture on their own authority. Who's authority is correct? Who has the authority to decide on moral issues?

And furthermore, what are we to do if we disagree with a Church's decision on the morality of abortion? What if our consciences cannot submit to the authority of a particular ecclesial community? Are we our own arbiters of moral truth?

Do we think Jesus would have left us completely adrift on even the most basic of moral and theological issues with no authority other than our own conscience?
There is not really all that much disagreement on the weighty, moral issues. I don't think that most evangelistic churches believe that abortion is anything but immoral.

The reason for that is most of the weighty, moral issues are pretty straightforward and addressed directly. And, for the specific things that are not addressed directly, Jesus says we should apply Godly principles through love. Defaulting to that is rarely ever going to lead you in the wrong direction.
Marco Esquandolas
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AG
the more interesting question is whether an "objective" interpretation is something that can possibly exist. I doubt that it is. Some subjective interpretations become favored over others in particular social and political circles at different points in time for complicated reasons.
Drum5343
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BusterAg said:

Drum5343 said:

What about the reality of the Eucharist? Is that important? Either Catholics are right about the Eucharist, or we are the worst idolaters in the history of Christianity. Who has the authority to tell us what the Eucharist is? We might say 'the Church', but as the author points out, what if our interpretation of Scripture's account of the Eucharist differs from the Church's? Why should we trust the Church over our own conscience on this matter?
The only thing that really matters is faith in Jesus Christ expressed through love.

Communion is commanded, and we should do it. But, whether or not I believe that the communion is somehow transformed in my mouth has no impact on my faith or spiritual fruit. YMMV.

I think that most of the Catholic traditions are beautiful. The only thing that really bothers me about the Catholic faith is the belief that not being a Catholic is somehow bad or sinful.
You must not understand what Catholics believe about the Eucharist if you think our disagreement is no big deal.
BusterAg
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AG

Quote:

The modern Roman Catholic interpretation of that passage is far from consensus.

Many Fathers write of St Peter's confession in Matthew 16 is that when Christ said "this rock", this was referring to St Peter's confession, not his person. Others write that the Rock is Christ. Still others suggest that it was St Peter's person, but only as a representative of the Church.
So, if there is not consensus about this, I should submit to the RCC Pope's interpretation of this, why exactly?

Seems kind of like a self-serving catch 22 problem here.

On a side note, I honestly believe that Jesus is showing some wit here. This guy Peter is pretty rash, walking on water, cutting off and ear and then denying Jesus within hours, just as a couple of examples. But, Jesus says, it is on this rock I will build my church.

Whether or not you believe that it is the confession, or the apostle Peter, again has not much impact on your ability to put your faith in Jesus and bring spiritual fruit expressed through love.
BusterAg
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Quote:


You must not understand what Catholics believe about the Eucharist if you think our disagreement is no big deal.
What I know of it I think is pretty cool. I am all about traditions that edify.

But, I don't understand how a difference in opinion would have an impact on how you live your Christian walk.
Drum5343
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BusterAg said:

Drum5343 said:

Sorry, last comment for now.

And even if you hold that the Eucharist or the sacraments are not essential to [your own interpretation of] the gospel, what about moral issues? How are we to adjudicate these disputes?

Take abortion for example. The RCC is the only major western church that maintains the belief that it is an intrinsic wrong. Nearly every other denomination has relativised it to each individual.

How are we to decide who is right? Each denomination has made their own interpretation of scripture on their own authority. Who's authority is correct? Who has the authority to decide on moral issues?

And furthermore, what are we to do if we disagree with a Church's decision on the morality of abortion? What if our consciences cannot submit to the authority of a particular ecclesial community? Are we our own arbiters of moral truth?

Do we think Jesus would have left us completely adrift on even the most basic of moral and theological issues with no authority other than our own conscience?
There is not really all that much disagreement on the weighty, moral issues. I don't think that most evangelistic churches believe that abortion is anything but immoral.

The reason for that is most of the weighty, moral issues are pretty straightforward and addressed directly. And, for the specific things that are not addressed directly, Jesus says we should apply Godly principles through love. Defaulting to that is rarely ever going to lead you in the wrong direction.
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/01/16/religious-groups-official-positions-on-abortion/

Go there and you'll see there is not exactly a consensus on how we should treat abortion.
BusterAg
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Marco Esquandolas said:

the more interesting question is whether an "objective" interpretation is something that can possibly exist. I doubt that it is. Some subjective interpretations become favored over others in particular social and political circles at different points in time for complicated reasons.
I think the question boils down to whether an objective interpretation is something that is at least worth pursuing. I do think that thoughtful analysis of the scriptures can lead to better understanding, and that many of these issues will have a position that is objectively wrong.

Do not murder cannot mean do not murder landowners, or registered voters, but murdering visiting foreigners is OK.

A strictly subjective interpretation viewpoint would allow for these types of rationalizations.
Drum5343
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BusterAg said:

Quote:


You must not understand what Catholics believe about the Eucharist if you think our disagreement is no big deal.
What I know of it I think is pretty cool. I am all about traditions that edify.

But, I don't understand how a difference in opinion would have an impact on how you live your Christian walk.
I believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ physically present. Body, blood, soul and Divinity presented to me at every Mass. I bow down and worship what appears to be bread, but I believe (and the Church teaches) that it is no longer bread, but the body of Christ Himself.

If the Catholic Church is wrong on that, you don't see how that causes problems?
Drum5343
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Hell, the episcopal ecclesial community (I refuse to call them a church) condones, endorses, and fundraises for abortion!


Quote:

While the Episcopal Church recognizes a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy, the church condones abortion only in cases of rape or incest, cases in which a mother's physical or mental health is at risk, or cases involving fetal abnormalities. The church forbids "abortion as a means of birth control, family planning, sex selection or any reason of mere convenience."
So in the case of Down Syndrome, the "episcopals" flat out condone abortion.

And if you say "well, they shouldn't condone abortion. That's not Christian!"

By what authority do you say that?
Drum5343
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Or if you were unlucky enough to be conceived by rape or incest, better hope your mom isn't an Episcopal.

She'll go to her church and ask for guidance, and they'll be able to say "Oh, yes, we condone abortion in this case!"

shudder...
swimmerbabe11
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Lutherans are also lockstep about the evil of abortion.

(don't throw the ELCA at me, they aren't Lutheran)
Zobel
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BusterAg said:


Quote:

The modern Roman Catholic interpretation of that passage is far from consensus.

Many Fathers write of St Peter's confession in Matthew 16 is that when Christ said "this rock", this was referring to St Peter's confession, not his person. Others write that the Rock is Christ. Still others suggest that it was St Peter's person, but only as a representative of the Church.
So, if there is not consensus about this, I should submit to the RCC Pope's interpretation of this, why exactly?

Seems kind of like a self-serving catch 22 problem here.

On a side note, I honestly believe that Jesus is showing some wit here. This guy Peter is pretty rash, walking on water, cutting off and ear and then denying Jesus within hours, just as a couple of examples. But, Jesus says, it is on this rock I will build my church.

Whether or not you believe that it is the confession, or the apostle Peter, again has not much impact on your ability to put your faith in Jesus and bring spiritual fruit expressed through love.
I'm not advocating for you to submit to the bishop of Rome at all. I don't believe or agree with the modern Roman church's position that the Roman church has some sort of administrative authority -- and especially not theological authority -- over the rest of the Church.

Orthodoxy is based on holding fast to the traditions that were passed down from Christ through the Apostles: the faith once for all delivered to the saints. This is why the consensus of the Fathers is so important, and why I quoted them regarding this verse.
Marco Esquandolas
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BusterAg said:

Marco Esquandolas said:

the more interesting question is whether an "objective" interpretation is something that can possibly exist. I doubt that it is. Some subjective interpretations become favored over others in particular social and political circles at different points in time for complicated reasons.
I think the question boils down to whether an objective interpretation is something that is at least worth pursuing. I do think that thoughtful analysis of the scriptures can lead to better understanding, and that many of these issues will have a position that is objectively wrong.

Do not murder cannot mean do not murder landowners, or registered voters, but murdering visiting foreigners is OK.

A strictly subjective interpretation viewpoint would allow for these types of rationalizations.

Sure, and this is why religious communities exist -- to provide a community within which interpretations are shared, discussed, vetted, etc. In reality, isn't what we actually wind up with a relative handful of different interpretations on most important issues, each with a set of reasonably persuasive arguments in their favor? We pick and choose interpretations to adhere for all kinds of reasons, including resolving internal conflicts in our own minds with other interpretations of other topics. There is no way to ever know if and when someone has arrived at the objectively correct interpretation, but we can still adjudicate among them based on kinds of evidence, how probably they seem, etc., with the understanding that we don't know what the mind of God wants us all to think the meaning of a particular verse is. I personally see no real for pursuing an "objective" interpretations should be a goal since it is an impossible one, but I can also see how it might be constructive for some to simply assume that it is for practical purposes.
Zobel
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BusterAg said:

Drum5343 said:

What about the reality of the Eucharist? Is that important? Either Catholics are right about the Eucharist, or we are the worst idolaters in the history of Christianity. Who has the authority to tell us what the Eucharist is? We might say 'the Church', but as the author points out, what if our interpretation of Scripture's account of the Eucharist differs from the Church's? Why should we trust the Church over our own conscience on this matter?
The only thing that really matters is faith in Jesus Christ expressed through love.

Communion is commanded, and we should do it. But, whether or not I believe that the communion is somehow transformed in my mouth has no impact on my faith or spiritual fruit. YMMV.

I think that most of the Catholic traditions are beautiful. The only thing that really bothers me about the Catholic faith is the belief that not being a Catholic is somehow bad or sinful.
I don't really agree here at all Buster. First, belief about the Eucharist is clearly spelled out as critical by St Paul:

Quote:

Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner, shall be guilty of the body and the blood of the Lord. But a man must examine himself, and in so doing he is to eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For he who eats and drinks, eats and drinks judgment to himself if he does not judge the body rightly.
It should be straightforward that judging the body rightly is imperative. The question becomes "what is it to judge rightly?" This is an altogether separate discussion from what you're proposing which is "it doesn't matter, YMMV".

I'm not Roman Catholic, but willingly separating oneself from the Church is bad, because Christ did not establish many churches but one, and He prayed that we should be joined together as one in Him the same way He is one with the Father. St Paul says we are members of one Body with Him as the Head. To separate yourself from that Body is to separate yourself from Christ - and, further, the pillar and foundation of truth (which is the same thing said in different ways).
Drum5343
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Also, the efficaciousness of baptism is deadly important.

I was baptized as an infant. According to many mainline Christian traditions, I am NOT saved except maybe by extraordinary means.

This is important to me! If I can't trust the Catholic Church when they say my baptism grafted me onto the vine of Christ, who's interpretation of scripture can I turn to?

And what authority do they claim to know the truth as opposed to my dear sweet mother Church?
swimmerbabe11
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I struggle to get through articles like this, because I never feel like I'm the one that's being battled here..even though I'm of Sola Scriptura faith. (Sola not Solo, even though your article is saying there is no difference)

Mostly, because Mathison would be considered..not of the same spirit as us. Secondly, because Cross keeps talking Evangelicals...a group which Lutherans are not a part of. Thirdly, because I haven't read Mathison's book and I find it unfair to read a rebuttal of a book that I haven't read. There are paraphrases where I don't believe I agree with Mathison, but I'm not sure I can put the best construction on it if I haven't read it in it's context. However, that puts me at a disadvantage, because I have no desire to read a book about scriptural interpretation from someone who doesn't believe in the Lord's Supper. I try to be careful about what I do and don't read.
AgLiving06
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k2aggie07 said:

BusterAg said:


Quote:

The modern Roman Catholic interpretation of that passage is far from consensus.

Many Fathers write of St Peter's confession in Matthew 16 is that when Christ said "this rock", this was referring to St Peter's confession, not his person. Others write that the Rock is Christ. Still others suggest that it was St Peter's person, but only as a representative of the Church.
So, if there is not consensus about this, I should submit to the RCC Pope's interpretation of this, why exactly?

Seems kind of like a self-serving catch 22 problem here.

On a side note, I honestly believe that Jesus is showing some wit here. This guy Peter is pretty rash, walking on water, cutting off and ear and then denying Jesus within hours, just as a couple of examples. But, Jesus says, it is on this rock I will build my church.

Whether or not you believe that it is the confession, or the apostle Peter, again has not much impact on your ability to put your faith in Jesus and bring spiritual fruit expressed through love.
I'm not advocating for you to submit to the bishop of Rome at all. I don't believe or agree with the modern Roman church's position that the Roman church has some sort of administrative authority -- and especially not theological authority -- over the rest of the Church.

Orthodoxy is based on holding fast to the traditions that were passed down from Christ through the Apostles: the faith once for all delivered to the saints. This is why the consensus of the Fathers is so important, and why I quoted them regarding this verse.

I'd go so far as to say that the Bible itself doesn't support the modern Roman Church position on submitting to the Bishop of Rome.

Somehow a book written by many different writers with Paul being the most prominent in the NT led to the belief that Peter's opinion was valued above all others.

I'm fine with deference to him being the "Rock that Jesus built the Church on", but I agree with you that Rome took it too far (as humans tend to do).

It's one of the reasons I don't see the East and West joining anytime soon. Catholics would have to admit they took the Papacy too far down the wrong path and have to give up the power it now holds. I don't think human ego will allow it.
JSKolache
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Drum5343 said:

Seamaster said:

Quote:

If the answer is no; where do you seek the so-called objective reasoning from?
This question is ultimately led me into the Catholic Church, and many other people I know.

This is a fairly good article on the topic:

http://www.catholicfidelity.com/apologetics-topics/sola-scriptura/solo-scriptura-by-bryan-cross/

God Bless!


Maybe I'm a brainwashed, backwards Catholic...

But how could anyone read those arguments and still be Protestant? What a demolition of sola scriptura.
TLDR. Cuz we're OK worshiping on our own terms.
Drum5343
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k2aggie07 said:

Orthodoxy is based on holding fast to the traditions that were passed down from Christ through the Apostles: the faith once for all delivered to the saints. This is why the consensus of the Fathers is so important, and why I quoted them regarding this verse.


Why do we believe that those traditions have any doctrinal value?
BusterAg
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Drum5343 said:

BusterAg said:

Quote:


You must not understand what Catholics believe about the Eucharist if you think our disagreement is no big deal.
What I know of it I think is pretty cool. I am all about traditions that edify.

But, I don't understand how a difference in opinion would have an impact on how you live your Christian walk.
I believe that the Eucharist is Jesus Christ physically present. Body, blood, soul and Divinity presented to me at every Mass. I bow down and worship what appears to be bread, but I believe (and the Church teaches) that it is no longer bread, but the body of Christ Himself.

If the Catholic Church is wrong on that, you don't see how that causes problems?
How does this belief, whether it is true or not, impact the way that your faith in Jesus is expressed through love of your neighbor? How does it impact the importance of love, justice and mercy in your life?

To be honest with you, I pretty much agree in your interpretation of the Eucharist. I don't think that any atoms change when we take communion, but it is transformed into something holy, specifically, the body of Christ.

When I was younger, I couldn't really think abstractly enough to comprehend this. How could it be both bread and body? It didn't compute.

My change in this understanding did not help me be a better Christian, or love more, or be less selfless.

I just think that coming to agreement on metaphysical questions is simply not all that important, compared to living a life where faith in Jesus is expressed through love, justice and mercy. The latter is so, so difficult; in fact, impossible to do perfectly. Why sweat the conceptual stuff? I think that this, too, can be a form of idolatry.
diehard03
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Quote:

Also, the efficaciousness of baptism is deadly important.

I was baptized as an infant. According to many mainline Christian traditions, I am NOT saved except maybe by extraordinary means.

This is important to me! If I can't trust the Catholic Church when they say my baptism grafted me onto the vine of Christ, who's interpretation of scripture can I turn to?

And what authority do they claim to know the truth as opposed to my dear sweet mother Church?

Not as much as everyone makes it out to be, but I'm not sure what case you're worried about. I mean, most faiths believe if you submit yourself to the will of the Lord and his Son Christ, then you will be saved....all the things you would do while getting confirmed.

Now, I do think that evangelicals get carried away in their anti-Catholicism. Most miss that Catholic Baptism+Confirmation = Adult Baptism.
 
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