Trump as anti-globalism and anti-identity politics

2,108 Views | 26 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by Free Market
BusterAg
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AG
Interesting read on the themes that Trump has seemed to hit upon, even if he himself is pretty much an *******.

https://providencemag.com/2016/08/globalism-identity-politics/

Very brief summary below

quote:

  • Because States are territories within which specific laws are enforced, borders matter. Borders matter.
  • Because the laws of States work only when people are acculturated to them and adopt them as their own, legal immigration of people from cultures not accustomed to the laws of the State and their practical foundation must proceed slowly, and with the understanding that it takes several generations to acculturate them. Immigration policy matters.
  • Foreign policy is for the purpose of defending our own nation, not spending blood and treasure trying to persuade other nations to imitate our laws and ways. National interests, not so-called universal interests, matter.
  • Because the United States is composed of immigrants, admission into the Middle Class, made possible by robust economic growth, must be among the highest domestic priorities. Crony-capitalism diminishes growth by pre-determining permanent winners and permanent losers. The spirit of entrepreneurship, not just state-sponsored "care" of docile citizens, matters.
  • Because the sway of lobbyists in national politics grows in proportion to the growth of the federal government, the distorting power of lobbyists cannot be curtailed until the Constitutional limits on the federal government, established by the Founding Fathers, are observed anew. Federalism and the decentralization of power matters.
  • Because "identity politics" undermines the idea of citizens who must engage one-another based not on their identity, but on "the content of their character" as Martin Luther King famously said, the politically correct speech that destroys citizenship and the possibility of any common accord about what personal and national greatness may involve must be roundly repudiated. Greatness matters; if we are to have it, personally and as a country, we must cast off PC speech that in "protecting" us from suffering causes us to be its victim in perpetuity.



It's not a bad summary of the very best light of the viewpoints that Trump has seemed to capitalize on. I offer this not as a support of Trump, who I think it one of the deplorables of DC politics, but as an opportunity to analyze what the underlying emotional issues and needs of some parts of America that he seems to be capturing in a way that no one else has been able to.
Sapper Redux
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Is this intended for R&P or Politics? If it's intended for R&P, I would say that none of the positions are logically proven so much as posited as "more desirable." And if that's the case, it's also not shown that Trump is actually the more desirable candidate to realistically reach those goals. All you have is his mouth to go by.
BusterAg
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AG
Yeah, I'm not trying to understand who trump is or what he will do, as much as I am thinking about WHY? is he so popular.
PacifistAg
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AG
Oh, I think it's actually quite simple as to why he's popular. I think it's fear, plain and simple. The last 15 years have been filled with war, terrorism, economic freefalls and racial tension. I think people are afraid and frustrated, and then someone comes along who masterfully stokes those fears with over-the-top rhetoric and empty promises.
Frok
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AG
quote:
Oh, I think it's actually quite simple as to why he's popular. I think it's fear, plain and simple. The last 15 years have been filled with war, terrorism, economic freefalls and racial tension. I think people are afraid and frustrated, and then someone comes along who masterfully stokes those fears with over-the-top rhetoric and empty promises.


You pretty much just summed up every politician.

I think he's popular because he shuns political correctness. He makes comments he shouldn't make and he doesn't back down from it. Most politicians will give you 800 word answers that have nothing to do with anything in order to avoid taking a stance that you might not like.
PacifistAg
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AG
Yes, I'm aware that basically describes all politicians. He's just been able to tap into that fear much more effectively than others. But, you do touch upon something else, which is the "political correctness" aspect. For some reason, saying vile things is seen as a virtue for no reason other than it is politically incorrect.
Macarthur
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quote:
quote:
Oh, I think it's actually quite simple as to why he's popular. I think it's fear, plain and simple. The last 15 years have been filled with war, terrorism, economic freefalls and racial tension. I think people are afraid and frustrated, and then someone comes along who masterfully stokes those fears with over-the-top rhetoric and empty promises.


You pretty much just summed up every politician.

I think he's popular because he shuns political correctness. He makes comments he shouldn't make and he doesn't back down from it. Most politicians will give you 800 word answers that have nothing to do with anything in order to avoid taking a stance that you might not like.

I agree w/ Retired. Trump has really taken the rhetoric to another level.

I think it's also interesting how he has dumbed down the language. The guy uses a very small vocabulary and keeps using key words (adjectives) that people understand.
Frok
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AG
quote:
For some reason, saying vile things is seen as a virtue for no reason other than it is politically incorrect.


Well his opponent does this too. She called Trump supporters racist, homophobic, bigoted deplorables. Seems like it is a hit with both sides of the aisle.
PacifistAg
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AG
quote:
quote:
For some reason, saying vile things is seen as a virtue for no reason other than it is politically incorrect.


Well his opponent does this too. She called Trump supporters racist, homophobic, bigoted deplorables. Seems like it is a hit with both sides of the aisle.
Yes, he's not the only one. But he seems to be the one whose followers view the willingness to spew vile comments as some sort of virtue. Like his being politically incorrect is actually a reason to vote for him.
AGC
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AG
Lazy analysis is lazy.

It's nice to paint trump as some fear mongering blowhard but he's no different than anyone else. Clinton just devoted an entire page on her site to Pepe the frog. Let that sink in next time you think trump is worse. She's conjuring up fear of racism over an Internet meme.

Remember all the terrible things said about Romney? Our Olympic female Muslim fencer told her Twitter followers he wanted to deport all Muslims. Was it true? No.
PacifistAg
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AG
quote:
Lazy analysis is lazy.

It's nice to paint trump as some fear mongering blowhard but he's no different than anyone else. Clinton just devoted an entire page on her site to Pepe the frog. Let that sink in next time you think trump is worse. She's conjuring up fear of racism over an Internet meme.

Remember all the terrible things said about Romney? Our Olympic female Muslim fencer told her Twitter followers he wanted to deport all Muslims. Was it true? No.
Lazy analysis? But you basically agreed with what I said. As you pointed out, Hillary peddles fear as well, and by your own admission, he's "no different than anyone else". But, it's not me who paints Trump as a "fearmongering blowhard". It's Trump that does that. I think we agree that he's no different from the others in his use of fearmongering as a means of garnering support. The biggest difference is he seems to be better at it given that his followers seem to view his style as a virtue.

Is your problem that I say he is using fear to garner support, or that I don't also point that out about Hillary as well, since you say he's no different? Given that the thread was specifically about why Trump is popular, I stuck to Trump.
diehard03
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quote:
I think he's popular because he shuns political correctness. He makes comments he shouldn't make and he doesn't back down from it. Most politicians will give you 800 word answers that have nothing to do with anything in order to avoid taking a stance that you might not like.

Come on, he's just not Hillary. That's all it is. It's all simply because people have called her the devil for 15+ years and are willing to do anything for her not to be President.

edit: So, instead of actually holding politicians accountable by saying "No Soandso, that doesn't answer the question"...we'd rather have a guy say idiotic things because it's so refreshing?
Frok
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AG
quote:
quote:
I think he's popular because he shuns political correctness. He makes comments he shouldn't make and he doesn't back down from it. Most politicians will give you 800 word answers that have nothing to do with anything in order to avoid taking a stance that you might not like.

Come on, he's just not Hillary. That's all it is. It's all simply because people have called her the devil for 15+ years and are willing to do anything for her not to be President.


So how do you explain his support in the primaries? He used to support Hillary so it seems like if that was the only criteria then people picked very poorly.
PacifistAg
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AG

quote:
So how do you explain his support in the primaries?
1) Large numbers of candidates
2) Fearmongering
3) Saying vile things that sadly resonated with people
4) ???
5) Profit
Frok
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AG
Well yes. Like I said before. He's the anti-PC candidate. It's not just because he's not Hillary.

Frok
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AG
quote:
edit: So, instead of actually holding politicians accountable by saying "No Soandso, that doesn't answer the question"...we'd rather have a guy say idiotic things because it's so refreshing?


Wouldn't it be nice if we were like that? The problem is we all think we are like that but we aren't. That's why campaigns are the way they are. Because it works.
diehard03
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quote:
So how do you explain his support in the primaries? He used to support Hillary so it seems like if that was the only criteria then people picked very poorly.

It's what you'd expect it to be: His Republican opposite was garbage, so everyone stayed home. Thus, the crazies had higher leverage to elect their crazy candidate.

Now, his support numbers are artificially inflated because people are on the anti-Hillary bandwagon.
diehard03
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quote:
Wouldn't it be nice if we were like that? The problem is we all think we are like that but we aren't. That's why campaigns are the way they are. Because it works.

No, it doesn't work that way because it's all a show. The debate moderators never do this because their job isn't to ensure Americans' that the best person should be elected. it's to legitimize both candidates so there's demand for their media outlets.

No one is incentivized to expose someone as completely non-competent. it only "works" because everyones in on it.
Frok
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AG
We eat it up though. Our government is a reflection of ourselves.
BusterAg
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No one sees this as a resurgence of the ideas of American Exceptionalism?

It's easy to say that he is the best fear mongerer.

It's tougher to understand how he is different from the field.
PacifistAg
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AG

quote:
No one sees this as a resurgence of the ideas of American Exceptionalism?
I pray it's not.


quote:
It's easy to say that he is the best fear mongerer.

It's tougher to understand how he is different from the field.
I just think he's tapped into this undercurrent of tribalism in America at a point where fear of other "tribes" is running high. As I said earlier, I think he's popular because of fear. He talks tough against those groups that so many are fearful of at this point in our history.
diehard03
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quote:
We eat it up though. Our government is a reflection of ourselves.

I don't disagree with you, but that wasn't my point. It was that he's not just a "anti-PC" guy. thats just the excuse de jour
diehard03
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quote:
No one sees this as a resurgence of the ideas of American Exceptionalism?

It's easy to say that he is the best fear mongerer.

It's tougher to understand how he is different from the field.

Not really. Just my opinion, but his fear mongering is on another level than the competition. Just because someone else does it to a lesser degree doesn't make them equal. The are arguments from a weak position.
swimmerbabe11
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OP is a wonderful example of "putting the best construction on it"

I don't think I am able to follow that example.
AGC
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AG
quote:
quote:
Lazy analysis is lazy.

It's nice to paint trump as some fear mongering blowhard but he's no different than anyone else. Clinton just devoted an entire page on her site to Pepe the frog. Let that sink in next time you think trump is worse. She's conjuring up fear of racism over an Internet meme.

Remember all the terrible things said about Romney? Our Olympic female Muslim fencer told her Twitter followers he wanted to deport all Muslims. Was it true? No.
Lazy analysis? But you basically agreed with what I said. As you pointed out, Hillary peddles fear as well, and by your own admission, he's "no different than anyone else". But, it's not me who paints Trump as a "fearmongering blowhard". It's Trump that does that. I think we agree that he's no different from the others in his use of fearmongering as a means of garnering support. The biggest difference is he seems to be better at it given that his followers seem to view his style as a virtue.

Is your problem that I say he is using fear to garner support, or that I don't also point that out about Hillary as well, since you say he's no different? Given that the thread was specifically about why Trump is popular, I stuck to Trump.


No. Your first response boiled it all down to fear (which yes, I consider lazy, much like anyone who would believe Brexit was simply xenophobia and racism). You're content depriving all who support him of the capability of rational thought and short cutting what they value in a candidate.

Sure, some people probably think it's great he's an *******. But to others, he's the person unafraid to say what they feel and not beholden to government regulation. He can come out and say the San Bernadino killers or Mateen were Muslim. He represents someone relaying facts instead of avoiding them and some feel that is a good trait of leadership.
PacifistAg
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AG

quote:
No. Your first response boiled it all down to fear (which yes, I consider lazy, much like anyone who would believe Brexit was simply xenophobia and racism). You're content depriving all who support him of the capability of rational thought and short cutting what they value in a candidate.
Well, when all I hear is fear, that leads me to believe that fear plays a major role in his support. Fear of Muslims. Fear of liberals (which is odd given he is one). Fear of Hillary. Fear of Mexicans "taking" jobs. Sure, not every single supporter is driven by fear, but many are and it's what I've seen more than anything else. It doesn't appear rational considering he's representing a party that is full of people claiming to support the myth of limited government, yet they support someone who goes against the very things they claim to be for. Why? Because they are afraid of the alternative. It doesn't seem rational given that the GOP claims to be the party of free market economics, yet he's certainly no friend to free market economics. it doesn't seem rational given that many in the GOP claim to be Christian, yet he has openly advocated for the murder of terrorists families.

quote:
Sure, some people probably think it's great he's an *******. But to others, he's the person unafraid to say what they feel and not beholden to government regulation. He can come out and say the San Bernadino killers or Mateen were Muslim. He represents someone relaying facts instead of avoiding them and some feel that is a good trait of leadership.
You say this as though others didn't come out and say the San Bernadino killer or Mateen were Muslim. And what "facts" is he relaying that others aren't? Also, "saying what you feel" isn't necessarily a good thing, especially when it's vile and offensive.

But hey, I'm sure this is like many issues discussed here and we are probably not going to agree. I simply answered the initial question based on what I've seen. You can feel free to dismiss that as "lazy" if you wish. Doesn't really matter in the end, as the end result is going to be the same regardless of who wins.
BusterAg
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AG
So, fear is there, agreed. So is the idiotic racism.

But what about the angst of the American working class? How much of this is about the American people going all Network, and shouting to DC that "We are mad as hell, and we are not going to take it anymore!"

The theory is that a vast amount of people feel disenfranchised by the current political climate. The democratic party has joined the elites together with the service class, and the republicans seem to be too focused on bankers and bible-beaters.

Now you have Trump out there telling everyone that the American government is full of ****, and a vast group of people are wondering why no one else has had the courage to stand up and say so.

It doesn't sound all that unreasonable to me.
Free Market
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There are definitely a lot of angry and frustrated trump supporters that think throwing a temper tantrum like a wacky waving arm inflatable tube man and voting trump is productive. They see a guy yelling about people and things they don't like and a guy who takes complex issues and turns them into easily defeatable strawmen. They see a guy who tells them they can have their cake and eat it too.

He's a great carrot and stick for people too stupid to understand the issues we face as a nation and too blind to see a blatant snake oil salesman.

These people are angry and willing to just let it burn
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