When will the American bishops start excommunicating Catholic pols who go astray?

4,238 Views | 48 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by diehard03
Ag13
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AG
I realize the answer is likely never but my gosh really, Mr. Kaine???

http://www.breitbart.com/2016-presidential-race/2016/09/12/tim-kaine-tells-gays-catholic-church-opposition-sex-marriage-going-change/
diehard03
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I think it's an issue of if you let the genie out of the bottle, you can't put it back in. As soon as you start doing it, then you allow others to question why you excommunicate some and not others. You now give people the power to excommunicate people via social pressure.
Martin Q. Blank
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Excommunication is the last straw. Causing a scandal and leading people astray in the church is subject to discipline, though.
diehard03
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I don't disagree, Martin. I just think the church loses when they start reacting to what OTHERS think they should do in regards to excommunication.
AggieRain
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AG
This is a real problem with the Catholic Church. I question it every time Nancy Pelosi receives the Eucharist. If Catholic clergy and structure doesn't enforce the rules, why should anyone take them seriously? The weak excuse that it is the responsibility of the recipient (not the clergy) to be in communion with the church is pitiful. That might be true with Joe Catholic that shows up on Sunday with his handout, but politicians have demonstrated their lapse with public, documented actions.
jkag89
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I understand the frustration when self proclaimed "traditional" or "devote" Catholic politicians continually voice or vote for policies contrary to Church teaching.

In this case, I do not think there is any canonical grounds for excommunication for simply expressing an opinion not in line with the Church. I also think most American bishops do not want to appear to be interfering with the political process with a formal excommunication.
diehard03
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quote:
If Catholic clergy and structure doesn't enforce the rules, why should anyone take them seriously? The weak excuse that it is the responsibility of the recipient (not the clergy) to be in communion with the church is pitiful.

I think you're putting your clergy in a rough position if they are expecting them to be the arbiter of the Cup, as it were.

However, one could argue that if the Priest administers the Eurcharist to Ms Pelosi, is he not using his power of "binding and loosing" here too?
Sapper Redux
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Would this go for every conservative Catholic who supports the Death Penalty as well? How strict is this?
AggieRain
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AG
quote:
I think you're putting your clergy in a rough position if they are expecting them to be the arbiter of the Cup, as it were.
That is why I stated that this is not practical for everyday Catholics, and the priest should not be charged with vetting every single recipient. They are, however, not excused from willfully dispensing communion to those publicly known to be at odds with doctrine (and in the case of Pelosi and numerous other politicians, actively using political power in loud and visible contrast to church teachings).
jkag89
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quote:
Would this go for every conservative Catholic who supports the Death Penalty as well? How strict is this?
The Catholic Church's stance capital punishment is not cut and dry, but you certainly raise a valid point.
diehard03
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quote:
Would this go for every conservative Catholic who supports the Death Penalty as well? How strict is this?

Is your question basically, "Should a priest deny the Eurcharist to a Death Penalty supporter who makes it publicly known their position"? I think it's a good question. I don't know.

quote:
That is why I stated that this is not practical for everyday Catholics, and the priest should not be charged with vetting every single recipient. They are, however, not excused from willfully dispensing communion to those publicly known to be at odds with doctrine (and in the case of Pelosi and numerous other politicians, actively using political power in loud and visible contrast to church teachings).

I think you run into the issue of showing favoritism to the "non-public" sinners. Maybe a "public" one knows that Jim believes something against the church but doesn't tell anyone. He gets the Body and Blood of Christ which confers grace. Maybe even the priest suspects, but doesn't know for sure. How much should the priest try and know? All of these grey areas present problems I think.
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Ag13
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AG
quote:
quote:
Would this go for every conservative Catholic who supports the Death Penalty as well? How strict is this?
The Catholic Church's stance capital punishment is not cut and dry, but you certainly raise a valid point.
If a politician or other public figure makes their non-Catholic stance known and backs it up with legislation, votes, fundraisers, etc then absolutely.

If John Doe Catholic believes in his heart something contrary then that would obviously be pretty tough to enforce. Difference is doing it to John Doe wouldn't really send any kind of message anyways.
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Aggrad08
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AG
That's a very fine and dangerous line to walk. If the current pope decides that supporting government charity is required for politicians to be in communion with the church...

It seems a terribly capricious process in a practical sense.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
The bishops' hands are tied unless they deny the Filoque
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BustUpAChiffarobe
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AG
I think it's a very grave matter to excommunicate someone from the Church; although I do understand it's nature of being a time-out rather than a banishment.

However, I do think Kaine, Pelosi, Biden and other self-professed Catholics do need this timeout, and have warranted this time out; and that their Bishops are letting the flock down by not giving them this timeout. The Catholic Church has all sorts of room for people who struggle with the teachings of the Church; this struggle is good and healthy for both the individual and for the Body of Christ as a whole.

However, politicians need to understand that there are some lines that you cannot cross without invoking certain punishments; foremost of which are the sanctity of life and the necessary complementarity of spouses in a marriage. I believe that the death penalty is approaching the "line not to be crossed" status as well; although there are certain circumstances (albeit vanishing every year) where the death penalty made be legitimately invoked.

There is a very fine line, but it's a fine line that the Bishop is entrusted with; and while I appreciate their being hesitant to pull the trigger; I think they're being slightly derelict in their duty at the moment.
747Ag
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AG
More than you ever wanted to know about Canon 915...

http://www.canonlaw.info/canonlaw915.htm


quote:
"Those who have been excommunicated or interdicted after the imposition or declaration of the penalty and others obstinately persevering in manifest grave sin are not to be admitted to holy communion."

AggieRain
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AG
It shouldn't be.
BustUpAChiffarobe
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AG
quote:
Why would this be limited to politicians?
It's not; I guess I just singled out politicians because I thought the context was Kaine/Pelosi et al; but really any public figures.
BustUpAChiffarobe
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AG
Funny enough; I'm actually struggling with this issue myself. In my daughter's Pre-K Catholic School; there's a child with lesbian moms in the class. The school is being very tolerant of the family; and obviously treats the child no different than any other.

The issue here; is that *surprise, surprise* it's creating some confusion with the kids. They had a project last week where they were supposed to make a little posterboard with pictures of their families and naturally the one kids having two moms got noticed by my daughter. To make matters somewhat worse; the teacher (trying to prepare the kids for two mommies presentation) read a book equivalent to "jimmy has two daddies" or whatever it's called. My daughter comes home and when telling me about her day at school starts to mention how some families have two moms, some have two dads, and that all families are the same as long as everyone loves each other; which is not a discussion that I can nuance with a 4-year old.

Doubling even further down; one of the mom's is co "room mom" with my wife.

I can understand that we want to be tolerant; and we don't want to punish children for their parents living arrangements which run counter to church teaching. I'm sure there are some parents living in wedlock; but unfortunately for the lesbians that arrangement doesn't cause as much scandal since it tends to fly under the radar. I don't think our tolerance needs to run to letting one of the lesbian moms be room Mom's. I struggle with why these moms want their children to be raised in an environment that teaches that their lifestyle is a grave sin. Furthermore; I don't know why we would let someone living openly and proudly in grave sin be a home-room Mom.

BustUpAChiffarobe
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quote:
I meant why should it be limited to public figures? If the church was serious about excommunicating those with heretical beliefs, they would have to put X's on hands at the door of the church like a northgate bar. The beliefs of those politicians aren't anomalous. There are many professing Catholics who agree. To address the public face of the issue and ignore the widespread heretical beliefs in the catholic population would show some pretty backward priorities.


Sure, I'm just saying me spouting off in a bar at guys night about something isnt as likely to get noticed by the bishop as Lady Gaga fellating a he-nun or Kaine throwing a speech at the HRC. Its also less likely to cause scandal.

If you venture over the Politics board you will see many of us yelling at self-professed Catholics over their comments on the Pope/Church teaching
Quad Dog
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AG
Maybe this questionruns into a different thread, but how do you differentiate between a politician's personal beliefs from their belief in what is best for the country?

This came up in the last Vice President debates, and I'll quote Biden on it:
"My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, "
BustUpAChiffarobe
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quote:
How Catholic is the Catholic school? Do you have to be Catholic to send your kid there? That seems very odd. Why would they let in obviously heretical people and allow them to be role models for the kids? If I was you, I'd have some blunt conversations and make some people uncomfortable.


In my opinion, how Catholic a school are you is the same as "how pregnant are you?" You either are or you arent; so I echo your sentiments.

I think the school is being tolerant and loving to the child, which is good, but its causing some obvious issues. I have a meeting with the Priest and Principal when they return from a Church pilgramige to Europe in a few weeks.
Martin Q. Blank
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The quote doesn't even make sense. Anytime a politician votes, legislates, makes a public speech, it is their personal beliefs being imposed.
Quad Dog
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AG
quote:
The quote doesn't even make sense. Anytime a politician votes, legislates, makes a public speech, it is their personal beliefs being imposed.
Not true. Every Christian has a personal belief that every human should accept Christ, be baptized, take communion, etc. (I'm not even going to touch disagreements on the specifics on how to do those things) I don't think that many of those Christian would vote for a law making those things compulsory to be a citizen.
Martin Q. Blank
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quote:
quote:
The quote doesn't even make sense. Anytime a politician votes, legislates, makes a public speech, it is their personal beliefs being imposed.
Not true. Every Christian has a personal belief that every human should accept Christ, be baptized, take communion, etc. (I'm not even going to touch disagreements on the specifics on how to do those things) I don't think that many of those Christian would vote for a law making those things compulsory to be a citizen.
Can you tell me how a politician makes legislation without having personal beliefs about that legislation? Is there some "public beliefs" blob that we look to when crafting legislation? Is it like the South Park manatees?
747Ag
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AG
quote:
Maybe this questionruns into a different thread, but how do you differentiate between a politician's personal beliefs from their belief in what is best for the country?

This came up in the last Vice President debates, and I'll quote Biden on it:
"My religion defines who I am. And I've been a practicing Catholic my whole life. And it has particularly informed my social doctrine. Catholic social doctrine talks about taking care of those who can't take care of themselves, people who need help. With regard to abortion, I accept my church's position that life begins at conception. That's the church's judgment. I accept it in my personal life. But I refuse to impose it on equally devout Christians and Muslims and Jews and--I just refuse to impose that on others, "


Response borrowed from Peter Kreeft:

quote:
I want to ask one of these politicians, "Why are you personally opposed to abortion? Is it because you believe that abortion is the deliberate killing of an innocent person? If not, why are you personally opposed to abortion? It's justit's yucky? Like you're personally opposed to yogurt?" If abortion doesn't kill a human life, I agree with the pro-choicers: it is an intolerable oppression of women's freedom and women's bodies to tell them what to do. If that's their body and not somebody else's body, you have no right to tell them what to do. But if it's somebody else's body, they have no right to kill that other person.
Quad Dog
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
The quote doesn't even make sense. Anytime a politician votes, legislates, makes a public speech, it is their personal beliefs being imposed.
Not true. Every Christian has a personal belief that every human should accept Christ, be baptized, take communion, etc. (I'm not even going to touch disagreements on the specifics on how to do those things) I don't think that many of those Christian would vote for a law making those things compulsory to be a citizen.
Can you tell me how a politician makes legislation without having personal beliefs about that legislation? Is there some "public beliefs" blob that we look to when crafting legislation? Is it like the South Park manatees?
Ideally we should vote for a President that we think can best execute the laws created by Congress. We should vote for a Congressperson that can best represent the needs/wants of their constituents. But that hasn't happened in a long time, if ever. So you're probably right, people just vote for the candidate most similar to themselves. Then those elected vote along party lines to make themselves and the party stronger.

EDIT: I realized I didn't really answer your question. Call me naive if you will, but I believe intelligent people can differentiate between their beliefs and the needs of a different group. The job of a politician is to try and do the best they can for their constituents.
Martin Q. Blank
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Doesn't answer my question.
diehard03
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quote:
Why would it be the goal of the Catholic Church to "send a message"? The message it would send is that it is more wrong for someone in a highly visible position to express those ideals. It would have to be enforced uniformly.

I think this one of the reasons why they've stayed away from it. Only brings chaos.

Not that it's a good reason, but I imagine you might get real persecution of the church (not the faux "Let me be a bigot" persecution complex) if you piss off the entire party in power by kicking out essentially all their Christians.

You might see some sweetheart taxation deals go away...
Ol_Ag_02
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
The quote doesn't even make sense. Anytime a politician votes, legislates, makes a public speech, it is their personal beliefs being imposed.
Not true. Every Christian has a personal belief that every human should accept Christ, be baptized, take communion, etc. (I'm not even going to touch disagreements on the specifics on how to do those things) I don't think that many of those Christian would vote for a law making those things compulsory to be a citizen.
Can you tell me how a politician makes legislation without having personal beliefs about that legislation? Is there some "public beliefs" blob that we look to when crafting legislation? Is it like the South Park manatees?


Because politicians are elected to do the will of the people.
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