(R) Questioning belief in Prayer

1,844 Views | 25 Replies | Last: 7 yr ago by BusterAg
The Fife
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This is something I've been struggling with a lot, and it directly ties in to questioning faith in Christianity (or any god) as a whole. I'm not looking for a lecture because I've already gotten one or two of those and more of thoughts from others who have dealt with similar issues regardless of the outcome. I'm surely not the first.

Looking back at things I (and the wife) have prayed about over time, it seems like "success" comes along only as often as basic probability suggests it should. Take serious cancer since this one seems to come up a lot in my life. Lots of people were given about a 5-10% chance of making it beyond a certain point and that's about the percentage of survivors have been. Is it a miracle that the one has survived about 4 years and God's will that the remainder are dead, or the result of an accurately calculated survival rate given a large enough population?

When it came up in conversation last week someone cited Mark 11:24 (Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.) With the most recent death people did exactly that, all the way into hospice and then to her last breath, but she died and then it just becomes this nebulous "God's will" again. We also prayed similarly for years for my brother to be able to get a decent job and be able to move out from our parent's place the same way, right up to his sudden death. Misinterpretation of scripture may explain it away but that's another deep rabbit hole to go down.

The logic of it all doesn't seem to hold up. Follow God's word in Mark 11:24 / Matt 21:22 in prayer but if whatever the situation is doesn't happen there's always the God's will trump card that can be played. There may be some sort of good feeling about it that the person gets, like praying for someone's situation may make them feel like they're helping but with no measurable, tangible result besides additional feeling of success or confirmation bias if they're part of the minority who happens to beat the odds.

It seems as though there is no point to it, and that the very act of prayer may be nothing more than a human reaction to scary situations that appear to be beyond our control. Thoughts from anyone else who has been down this road? Sorry if that's not how forum 15 works, I don't come here often.
schmendeler
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AG
I think you make some good points.
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FTAggies
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I've made so many prayers and bargains with God, if you give me this I will...(pray more, give more, volunteer, etc) looking back, I thank God those prayers didn't work out.

Some people act like God should be a power source, plug in, turn out, get what you want. How powerful or awe-inspiring is turning on the lights, driving your car, etc. you expect the same result. There are no easy answers, especially for people who aren't experiencing easy circumstances. If God's power were simply getting what we wanted than there would be nothing to admire and nothing powerful about Him, he would be under our control.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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quote:
When it came up in conversation last week someone cited Mark 11:24 (Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.) With the most recent death people did exactly that, all the way into hospice and then to her last breath, but she died and then it just becomes this nebulous "God's will" again. We also prayed similarly for years for my brother to be able to get a decent job and be able to move out from our parent's place the same way, right up to his sudden death. Misinterpretation of scripture may explain it away but that's another deep rabbit hole to go down.

The logic of it all doesn't seem to hold up. Follow God's word in Mark 11:24 / Matt 21:22 in prayer but if whatever the situation is doesn't happen there's always the God's will trump card that can be played. There may be some sort of good feeling about it that the person gets, like praying for someone's situation may make them feel like they're helping but with no measurable, tangible result besides additional feeling of success or confirmation bias if they're part of the minority who happens to beat the odds.

Personally, I kind of think the "Gods Will" reasoning is a rationalization. If it is Gods will for me to do something or to have some sort of result, then God would make that clear to me personally. Not simply through getting that result but by being informed ahead of time that you will get that result.

When it comes to prayer (and unanswered prayer) I've found that you can come to one of several conclusions:
1 - There is no God
2 - God is Capricious, answering some but not others.
3 - We're somehow at fault.

I've come to look at option 3, for the verses cited below

When that person cited Mark 11:24, they did a disservice by not including the surrounding context:
quote:

22 "Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23 "Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." [26] [g]
I think the forgiving of others is critical.

quote:
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, (then) we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
- 1st John 3
And
quote:
But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
- James 1

I know that you weren't looking for a lecture, and I hope that this did not come across as one. I've wrestled with this myself.




Humorous Username
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AG
After praying earnestly for my wife's employment situation for months, and the answer from God being "No", I have pulled back on asking Him for much of anything.

I thank Him for what He has allowed me to have, and ask that He would guide me to where He needs me. Asking for help for others, jobs for others, health for friends and family, even for my son to have a good day at school; all are close to non-existent in my prayers now.

Why waste my time and His with asking? He certainly has His favor set somewhere else, and I have become somewhat numb to seeing Him as a God that answers any type of prayer that is even remotely selfish.
The Fife
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Interesting reads...

I'll be able to actually reply more in the morning. I get to work at 5:30AM and am on eastern time so at 10:00 it's already getting a little late on my end. I started writing but realized I'd probably still be at it an hour later and would like blood-caffeine levels to be at least somewhat normal tomorrow...
FTAggies
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"God's will" is little comfort to people suffering, and can be a patronizing response, but regardless of faith situation empathy should always be the response. Some people respond differently to these things, prayer is at least something that we can do when hope seems lost.
ramblin_ag02
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AG
I find the topic of prayer fascinating. There are many types of prayer, but you seem to be speaking specifically of prayers of request. I don't think prayers of this type are very powerful or effective, regardless of the purity of intention.

Just think about it for a minute. Foremost, everyone faithful person prays for peace and happiness, both for themselves and their loved ones. Not in heaven or some future paradise, but right here, right now, all the time. If God wanted Earth to be a place of continual peace and happiness, then He would have made it that way in the first place. These prayers are clearly at cross-purposes with God's Will, and no one should be surprised that their prayers do not bring about happiness and peace for all.

Secondly, if God answered all these prayers, people would rarely die or get sick. Another ubiquitous prayer is for the health of sick people for themselves and the prayers of people for sick loved ones. Yet people still get sick, and people still die. Believer or not, prayed for or not, all day every day. Again, if God wanted to create a world without sickness and death, then He easily could have (and someday will). But that's not our world. When you pray for a fantasy to become reality, then you are going to be disappointed. It's like asking the IRS if only you can be exempt from taxes. It's not going to happen.

Finally, sometimes people pray for things that aren't good for them, even with the best of intentions. Or two faithful people earnestly pray for different things. Here is a great thought example of that exact thing:

https://regenerationandrepentance.wordpress.com/tag/wheat-farmer-and-tomato-farmer/

Two farming neighbors. One needs rain, the other would be ruined by rain. Both are praying earnestly. Is God supposed to pick sides? Or in the first case, is God supposed to indulge someone so they can learn their lesson and realize their desires were bad for them?

Now don't get me wrong. I don't think there is anything wrong with asking. But realize that God is the boss, and most of the time the answer is going to be "no".
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Texaggie7nine
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I think prayer is good for attitude.

As a deist, I have seen more evidence of God intervening in my life when I haven't prayed for it than when I have. I cannot think of a single time I prayed for something that I am absolutely convinced that my prayer affected the outcome.
7nine
Marco Esquandolas
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AG
It does seem pretty difficult to deal with the verse quoted by the OP, which gives the impression that God is a genie in a lamp type of being: Mark 11:24 (Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.)

The word "whatever" is a pretty big tent. How do Christians interpret it in light of all the things that people ask God for and clearly do not receive?
Marco Esquandolas
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AG
"The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays."

Soren Kierkegaard


OP you might give this little book a shot. I found it illuminating and interesting. https://www.amazon.com/Prayers-Kierkegaard-Soren/dp/0226470571
chuckd
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AG
quote:
It seems as though there is no point to it, and that the very act of prayer may be nothing more than a human reaction to scary situations that appear to be beyond our control. Thoughts from anyone else who has been down this road? Sorry if that's not how forum 15 works, I don't come here often.
Take the example of saints of old: the apostles, Job, Moses, etc. Horrible situations that they prayed to be delivered from. Even the Lord Jesus prayed that the cup may be taken from him. What is prayer? What does Mark 11:24 mean in light of these examples?
chuckd
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AG
quote:
"God's will" is little comfort to people suffering, and can be a patronizing response, but regardless of faith situation empathy should always be the response. Some people respond differently to these things, prayer is at least something that we can do when hope seems lost.
"God's will" is the ONLY comfort I have in this life, especially in the midst of suffering and affliction. That events do not happen by chance and without purpose, but are under the sovereignty of the living God.
diehard03
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quote:
It seems as though there is no point to it, and that the very act of prayer may be nothing more than a human reaction to scary situations that appear to be beyond our control.

I think that when we don't know the intent nor the thought process behind someone choosing to accept or deny our requests, it can come off like it doesn't matter. Now, in a human to human relationship, we can ask about the reasons...and often we can understand and even appreciate why a certain decision was made.

Unfortunately for us, God chooses not to do this with us.


quote:
When it comes to prayer (and unanswered prayer) I've found that you can come to one of several conclusions:
1 - There is no God
2 - God is Capricious, answering some but not others.
3 - We're somehow at fault.


Maybe you meant this by point 2, but I think we need an option of 'God does what he wants to do for the reasons he wants to'. I don't see this a God changing sort of thing, but just as a sovereignty issue.

diehard03
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quote:
quote:
Quote:"God's will" is little comfort to people suffering, and can be a patronizing response, but regardless of faith situation empathy should always be the response. Some people respond differently to these things, prayer is at least something that we can do when hope seems lost.
"God's will" is the ONLY comfort I have in this life. That events do not happen by chance and without purpose, but are under the sovereignty of the living God.

I think what's meant is not a debate on whether the statement is true...it's just a ****ty thing to say to someone whos struggling. It's basically a way of saying "quit your *****ing...the world will still go on with or without you. You don't really matter".
Frok
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AG
quote:
Just think about it for a minute. Foremost, everyone faithful person prays for peace and happiness, both for themselves and their loved ones. Not in heaven or some future paradise, but right here, right now, all the time. If God wanted Earth to be a place of continual peace and happiness, then He would have made it that way in the first place. These prayers are clearly at cross-purposes with God's Will, and no one should be surprised that their prayers do not bring about happiness and peace for all.


Very good point. For me I seek comfort way too much. I don't want the boat to be rocked, I just want to relax and coast.

However I understand the OP difficulty. God is not easy to understand and the perceived silence can shake your faith.

Frok
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AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
Quote:"God's will" is little comfort to people suffering, and can be a patronizing response, but regardless of faith situation empathy should always be the response. Some people respond differently to these things, prayer is at least something that we can do when hope seems lost.
"God's will" is the ONLY comfort I have in this life. That events do not happen by chance and without purpose, but are under the sovereignty of the living God.

I think what's meant is not a debate on whether the statement is true...it's just a ****ty thing to say to someone whos struggling. It's basically a way of saying "quit your *****ing...the world will still go on with or without you. You don't really matter".


I agree with Diehard on this one. My mom's passing was very sudden and unexpected. The idea that God willed for it was tough to swallow in the moment. Whether it's true or not, a simple "I'm sorry for your loss" is much better. (Not that Chuck was suggesting telling someone that in the midst of grief)
Aggrad08
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AG
quote:
"The function of prayer is not to influence God, but rather to change the nature of the one who prays."

Soren Kierkegaard


OP you might give this little book a shot. I found it illuminating and interesting. https://www.amazon.com/Prayers-Kierkegaard-Soren/dp/0226470571


I've long held that this is the only rationality that stands up to scrutiny for prayer. God is immutable the silly excuses about God aligning his will before the universe with future prayers fails logically as well. Prayer is for the heart of the prayer, thats the only way the evidence shows it works.

The Fife
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quote:
quote:
Misinterpretation of scripture may explain it away but that's another deep rabbit hole to go down.
Can you clarify this? Are you saying that you can explain it away by misinterpreting scripture, or are you saying that by correctly interpreting scripture the problem is explained?

As to it being a rabbit hole, I think it is the correct rabbit hole to search for the answer to this question. Your interpretations of scripture dictate your expectations for the outcome of prayer, and the disparity between your expectation and experience is your problem. I think you should figure out if there are any interpretations which can explain your circumstances that you find acceptable.

I've tried to do some research for you, but it's difficult to find explanations. Here's an article with a good summary of the reasoning I've found in most other articles, but I'm not sure you will find them satisfactory.

http://www.bibleinfo.com/en/questions/why-does-god-not-answer-my-prayer

At the end of the day, I think that as a believer, you have to trust that God has a plan and a purpose for your life and the lives of others, and that it may not match up with what makes you happy. I imagine that's probably something you've heard a lot of times, but may not have had to apply to serious circumstances until recently. It's about faith. I hope things work out for you.
I was thinking at the time maybe the person who made the comment may have been misinterpreting things or taking them out of context. What I was getting at though with the rabbit hole is that though some have been very good, the non-denominational evangelical protestant churches that have become so popular tend to have a lack of uniformity in training (biblical knowledge?) among those outside of direct church leadership. I don't mean this as an absolute statement or an insult but some sort of training or background would probably help since the results of having groups go off and come up with their own interpretations can have unpredictable results.

Circumstances now are serious, but are only temporary and will be over soon enough. Dealing with depression years ago was worse. I don't remember if I posted about it but at the moment there is death on the wife's side and her autistic 14 year old cousin having a very uncertain future since his primary caregiver is now gone, uncle by marriage on my side going into hospice, dealing with the city and a house we own that some idiot roofers crushed the roof on, and seeing a whole lot of professed Christians acting with zero traces of compassion or human empathy whatsoever (I know people are fallible, but lately the hypocrisy has been glaring).
The Fife
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quote:
I don't think there are any circumstances under which OP would be happy his prayers weren't answered in hindsight. Most of the things I've seen people say that about were superficial requests, like a new job. This seems much more black and white where, from our perspective at least, it would certainly be better if his prayers were answered.
Yes, as I just wrote the wife's cousin's primary caregiver is now dead. His father may very well be able to step up and do what needs to be done but it's hard to see that happening. The grandmother (uncle's MIL) lives there and will probably fill this role but for how long since she's in her 70s. I never prayed about her cancer since the track record for people with health issues young or old that I do pray for is very poor and it doesn't seem to do anything anyway.
The Fife
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quote:

When it comes to prayer (and unanswered prayer) I've found that you can come to one of several conclusions:
1 - There is no God
2 - God is Capricious, answering some but not others.
3 - We're somehow at fault.
FWIW I never believed #3 except for when I was very young ('must have done something bad or sinned so that one isn't getting answered').

#1 and #2 are the only things that make sense to me since obviously everyone's prayers can't be answered. My mental argument against going #1 is just the sheer hugeness of the world, and that our perspective of it all is like an ant trying to take in the whole of a city from standing on top of its mound. From our perspective a god would appear completely irrational because of an endless number of factors that any answered prayer would affect and it would be pointless to try and apply logic to this.

The argument against being given a large enough set of events with a slim probability of occurrence, some of them are bound to happen and from the person's perspective you would have a miracle. It may be a strange way of thinking about things, but dealing with statistics as a regular part of one's job may mess with a person's mind a bit after a while.
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Solo Tetherball Champ
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I look to number three, simply because there are enough conditional statements within the bible to support that position.

Let's take a look at Mark 11 again:
quote:
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23 "Truly[f] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them. 24 Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25 And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins." [26] [g
M
ark 11
[url=https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+11#fen-NIV-24667g][/url]
quote:
21 Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, (then) we have confidence before God 22 and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him.
- 1st John 3
Why would your own heart condemn you, unless you had unconfessed sin in your own life and were not repenting of it?

quote:
But when you ask, you must believe and not doubt, because the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That person should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 Such a person is double-minded and unstable in all they do.
- James 1

And some OT for you as well:
quote:
"See, I am setting before you today a blessing and a curse the blessing if you obey the commands of the LORD your God that I am giving you today; the curse if you disobey the commands of the LORD your God and turn from the way that I command you today by following other gods, which you have not known."
Deuteronomy 11:26-28
quote:
"Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land..."

Isaiah 1:18-19
Psalms:
quote:
"If you make the Most High your dwelling even the LORD, who is my refuge then no harm will befall you, no disaster will come near your tent."
Psalm 91:9-10

There are enough conditional statements in the Bible to make me believe that the reason for unanswered prayer lies with us, rather than God. I would argue that most of us do what we want and will most of the time until we want something and then turn to God. If the statement holds true that the prayer of a righteous man has great power, then it should also hold true that the prayers of the unrighteous go unanswered. As a matter of fact, there are plenty of verses (particularly) in the OT that say essentially the same thing.


BearFan
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Here's Piper on Mark 11:24, for those interested.

http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/what-do-answers-to-prayer-depend-on-part-2
BusterAg
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AG
There is a lot to this question.

First off, I do believe that God sometimes answers prayers in miraculous ways, although probably pretty rarely.

Second, Christianity is very good at helping the believer look ahead and find joy, even amid the troubles and difficulties that we are sure to face in this world. Often times, the despair that comes with trouble brings with it even more angst than the trouble. There is some wisdom in being persistent until the end with prayer, and keeping up optimism. A person who is armed with optimism and hope, even if it is misguided, is bound to do better than another who has convinced himself that he is trudging towards inevitable failure. The latter leads to a lack of effort / will / strength, and is a self fulfilling prophesy. So, I would say that prayer is not only for the heart of the believer, but also his willpower and spirit. If you are making a lot of slightly better decisions on the margins due to more self-confidence or belief or whatever, they are likely to add up.

Finally is the idea of "God's Will" I am not a deterministic person, and think that there is a lot of Chaos and chance that occurs in this world, even though God has an overarching plan that human beings have no way of frustrating. I have no idea as to the level of interaction that God has in daily affairs of the average human, but I do believe that he does interact sometimes. But, the things that we ask for are often not the most important things to our eternal existence and / or sanctification. I find it likely that God ignores many of these requests because they simply don't line up with his priorities. Out of all the explanations of why prayers are not answered, the excuse that it was not God's will seems the least appealing.
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